OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 24 Apr 2008 12:21

Hi all:

I’ve been lurking this forum for some time and I finally decided to intervene… at least to say hello :D

I am currently working to make the finest possible OOB during the Soviet attack in the Karelian Isthmus (June-July 1944). I’ve found a lot of scattered info in this forum and other sources and I just wanted to put everything along, fill some holes and ask a few questions in the hopes the experts here can give me some more light. Any info to complement what appears below will be extremely welcome.

2 Infantry Division (JD 2)
7 Infantry Regiment (JR 7)
49 Infantry Regiment (JR 2)
12 Separate Battalion (Er P 12)
3 Native Battalion (Heimo P 3)
15 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 15): 12x76, 12x75, 12x114
33 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 33)

Artillery units temporarily attached to 2 ID:
24 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 24): 12x105
20 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 20): 12x155
17 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 17): 12x105
18 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 18): 12x152
27 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 27): 8x155, 4x120

Questions regarding 2 ID:
• Were Separate Battalions equivalent to regimental battalions or did they have different TO&Es?
• Was the Heimo Battalion equivalent to a regimental battalion? Other than the origin of soldiers, was there anything special in this unit?
• I guess one of the Heavy Artillery Battalions listed as attached was organic to 2 ID. I tend to think it was Rask Psto 20, but I am not sure. Which one was part of 2 ID?

3 Infantry Division (JD 3)
11 Infantry Regiment (JR 11)
53 Infantry Regiment (JR 53)
13 Separate Battalion (Er P 13)
16 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 16)
16 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 16)
34 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 34)
31 Signals Battalion (VP 31)

Questions regarding 3 ID:
• What guns did Arty units have?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 3 ID?

4 Infantry Division (JD 4)
5 Infantry Regiment (JR 5)
25 Infantry Regiment (JR 25)
14 Separate Battalion (Er P 14)
1 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 1)
22 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 22): 4x105, 8x152
25 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 25)

Questions regarding 4 ID:
• What guns did KTR 1 have?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 4 ID?

6 Infantry Division (JD 6)
12 Infantry Regiment (JR 12)
35 Infantry Regiment (JR 35)
16 Separate Battalion (Er P 16)
14 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 14)
? Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto ?)
13 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 13): 12?x105
36 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 36)

Questions regarding 6 ID:
• What Rask Psto (if any... was it substituted by Kev Psto 13?) was part of 6 ID?
• What guns did Arty units have?
• How many guns did Kev Psto 13 have? The usual 12?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 6 ID?

10 Infantry Division (JD 10)
1 Infantry Regiment (JR 1)
58 Infantry Regiment (JR 58)
20 Separate Battalion (Er P 20)
1st Bn/200 Infantry Regiment (I/JR 200): Estonian volunteers
9 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 9): 24x76, 12x122
25 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 25): 4x122, 8x152
26 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 26)

Artillery units temporarily attached to 10 ID:
1 Super Heavy Artillery Battalion (Jär Psto 1): 12x155
4 Super Heavy Artillery Battalion (Jär Psto 4): 9x203
28 Super Heavy Coastal Battery (Jär Rt Ptri 28): 3x254
3 Heavy Battery (Rask Ptri 3): 4x122 (possibly motorized)

Questions regarding 10 ID:
• Whas I/200 Bn equivalent to any other Finnish Battalion
• Was 3 Heavy Battery a motorized unit?

11 Infantry Division (JD 11)
30 Infantry Regiment (JR 30)
50 Infantry Regiment (JR 50)
21 Separate Battalion (Er P 21) Not sure about unit id
4 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 4)
30 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 30): 12?x152
28 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 28)

Questions regarding 11 ID:
• Is 21 Separate Bn correct?
• What guns did KTR 4 have?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 11 ID?
• How many guns did Rask Psto 30 have? The usual 12?

15 Infantry Division (JD 15)
15 Infantry Regiment (JR 15) Not sure about unit id
57 Infantry Regiment (JR 57)
25 Separate Battalion (Er P 25) Not sure about unit id
2 Border Jäger Battalion (RajaJP 2)
12 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 12): 12x75, 12x122, 12x152
13 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 13): 12x150
31 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 31)

Artillery units temporarily attached to 15 ID:
22 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 22): 12x75
I/19 Field Artillery Regiment (I/KTR 19): 12x76
12 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 12): 12x105

Questions regarding 11 ID:
• Are unsure units correct?
• Was the Border Jäger Battalion equivalent to an ordinary Jäger Battalion or was it different?
• I have KTR 19 as the Field Arty Regiment of 18 ID. Was the attachment of I/KTR 19 temporary? Is it a mistake? Is 18 ID Field Arty Regiment other than 19 os was it incomplete due to partial attachment to 15 ID?

18 Infantry Division (JD 18)
6 Infantry Regiment (JR 6)
48 Infantry Regiment (JR 48)
28 Separate Battalion (Er P 28)
II/JR 13 Infantry Battalion. Including a Swedish volunteer company
III/JR 13 Infantry Battalion (From 20-VI to 26-VI)
19 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 19)
26 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 26): 4x120, 8x155
23 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 23)

Questions regarding 18 ID:
• Was the Swedish volunteer coy in addition to regular coys of the regiment or did it substitute one of them… in other words, was JR 13 reinforced with an extra volunteer coy or did it have the usual number of coys?
• See question for 15 ID regarding KTR 19
• What guns did KTR 19 have?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 18 ID?


General question regarding infantry divisions: Were all divisions more or less equivalent in quality? I know there’s no big difference between them but, was anyone of them significantly better or worse than the other ones?


3 Infantry Brigade (Jv Pr 3)
Four infantry battalions numbered I-IV
4 Fortification Battalion (Lin P 4)
23 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 23): 12x105
23 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 23): 12x152

Question regarding 3 IB:
• What was the TO&E of a Fortification Battalion?

19 Infantry Brigade (Jv Pr 19)
Four infantry battalions numbered I-IV
6 Separate Battalion (Er P 6). Later attached to 15 ID
14 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 14): 12x105
19 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 19): 12x76
39 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 39): 12x152

Question regarding 19 IB
• When was 6 ErP attached to 15 ID?

20 Infantry Brigade (Jv Pr 20)

Four infantry battalions numbered I-IV

Questions regarding 20 IB
• What artillery units did this brigade have?
• If I’m not wrong 20 IB was an untried and inexperienced unit. Nevertheless it was tasked with the defense of Viipuri… why? Wasn’t there anything better available?

Cavalry Brigade (Rv Pr)
Häme Mounted Regiment (HRR)
Uusimaa Dragoon Regiment (URR)
1 Jäger Battalion (JP 1)
6 Jäger Battalion (JP 6)
Riding Battery (Ratts Ptri): 6x76
12 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 12): 12x105

Both cavalry regiments were dismounted in 1943. If I’m not wrong they were equipped with bicycles. They were formed by four squadrons each, roughly the equivalent of a light infantry battalion.

Questions regarding the Cavalry Brigade
• I think both Jäger Battalions were not deployed in the Karelian Isthmus when the Soviets launched their attack. Did any one of them reinforce their parent unit before the end of the Karelian Isthmus campaign?
• Any other artillery unit supporting this brigade?
• I've seen a couple of sources giving this brigade a numeral: 1 Cav Bde, while others only talk about the Cavalry Brigade. Is the number correct or was the unit unnumbered?

Panzer Division (PsD)
Panzer Brigade(PsPr):
Two Tank Battalions: around 80 T-26, 3 T-34, 2 KV-1, 8 T-28
Independent Tank Company: 18 BT-42
Assault Gun Battalion (RynTykP): 23 StuG III-G
Jäger Brigade (JPr)
2, 3, 4 and 5 Jäger Battalions (JP)
Antitank Battalion: 12x75, 6x50
14 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 14): 12x150
Armored Anti-Aircraft Battery: 6 Landsverk Anti II SPAA
2 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 2)
6 Signals Battalion (VP 6)

Questions regarding the Armored Division
• What was the operational importance of tank battalions equipped with Soviet-built tanks?
• What was the operational importance of the BT-42 unit?

303 Assault Gun Brigade (StuG Bde 303)
German unit
3 Batteries for a total of 27 StuG-III

Please, feel free to correct/complete, any info you may find mistaken/incomplete. Thanx in advance for your help.

Best regards

Ernesto
Last edited by nometorres on 27 Apr 2008 20:16, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
patrik.possi
Banned
Posts: 267
Joined: 08 Jul 2007 23:12
Location: Sweden

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by patrik.possi » 24 Apr 2008 14:11

Hi

Intresting project

Abouth the 18th Division, it had JR6 and not JR13. If im not wrong IRC the 18th Division was reinforced by one batalion of JR13 (From 11th division who then was in eastkarelia just prio to the battle of Tali-Ihantala) During the defence of the tali area 20-24 the division commander Pauuli had comanded over 18th division+3 rd brigade and 1 batalion of JR13. The old foxes at this forum have to correct me on this.

Cheers Patrik

Esa K
Member
Posts: 1254
Joined: 13 Jan 2005 13:49
Location: Sweden

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by Esa K » 24 Apr 2008 17:18

Some small notes as a start...

As Patrik P pointed out, the regiments of 18.D was JR 6 and JR 48, III/JR 13 was during some time subordinated to 18.D, and later (25/6 1944) during some hours also II/JR 13.
JR 13 was a unit of 17.D during the summer of 1944, and the other infantry regiment of that division was JR 61.
The two inf. regiments of 4.D was JR 25 and JR 5.


Best regards

Esa K

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 24 Apr 2008 20:21

Thanks Patrik and Esa:

I will update the OOB with the info you both provided
patrik.possi wrote:Abouth the 18th Division, it had JR6 and not JR13. If im not wrong IRC the 18th Division was reinforced by one batalion of JR13 (From 11th division who then was in eastkarelia just prio to the battle of Tali-Ihantala)
Well... 11th division was involved in the Tali-Ihantala battle so it looks you made a typo here... you must refer to 17th ID, as Esa clarifies... maybe you would like to edit your post.
As Patrik P pointed out, the regiments of 18.D was JR 6 and JR 48, III/JR 13 was during some time subordinated to 18.D, and later (25/6 1944) during some hours also II/JR 13.
This clarifies things a lot... I was confused by constant references to JR 13 battalions and other eferences to JR 6. I knew 18 ID only had two regiments but was baffled... and inclined to consider JR 13 the correct one, but I was evidently mistaken (which is further evidence that you can safely bet against me when we are at 50% odds... I use to lose 90% of times in such situation :lol: )

So JR 6 was part of 18 ID and JR 13 was not, but II/JR 13 and III/JR 13 were temporarily attached. I'd be interested in knowing about the dates of attachments to 18 ID or any other units in the Karelian istmus battles. Dates of arrival and withdrawal (if applicable) would also be interesting.

Regarding the Swedish volunteer coy attached to JR 13, I think it was attached to II/JR 13 but would like to confirm this... and also if it was a supplementary force (which I think) to the TO&E of the unit or one of the regular companies forming the battalion.
The two inf. regiments of 4.D was JR 25 and JR 5
So I guessed it right... glad to know I sometimes can do things properly :D

Thanx again, and please, keep this valuable info coming!!!

Best

Ernesto

User avatar
patrik.possi
Banned
Posts: 267
Joined: 08 Jul 2007 23:12
Location: Sweden

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by patrik.possi » 24 Apr 2008 22:51

What ill got in some books..

According to Matti Koskimaa, finnish Col and military writter in his book Veitsen Terällä.

Artilery

18D. RsPsto 26 (8x155 h/15 4x120 k/78-31)

6D. KvPsto 13 (105 H/37)

11D. RsPsto 30 (152H/09-30)

4D. RaPsto 22 (4x105 k/29 8x152 H/38)

Also there was a ErPsto X (4x122 K/31 2x152 H/37)

And the 4th Corps Art

KvPsto 24 (105 H/37)
RsPsto 17 (105 K/29)
RsPsto 18 (152 H/37)
3./JrPsto 4 (4x203 H/17)


In Lt Gen K.L:Oesch own Book

He mention that only a part of the artilery tractors was in the VT-Line on 10.6.1944 and due to that the 10 Division lost 68 guns.

According to Eero Kuussaari and Vilho Niitemaas book Finland at war 1941-1945

3rd Brigade was but under the command of the 18dD commander Paalu (corect spelling) the evening of 20th june The same day on the morning the 3rd batalion of JR13th was put under 18th division command Makeing this the biggest Finnish Divisional command ever according to Kuussaari-Niitemaa. This command existed until the 26th when parts of it was replaced by battlegroup Puroma and Björkman and units from PS.D

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 25 Apr 2008 11:53

Thanx again, Patrik, for your kind help. A few more holes filled... this looks promising :wink:

I updated the OOB with your latest info. A couple of questions arose:
6D. KvPsto 13 (105 H/37)
11D. RsPsto 30 (152H/09-30)
I'm pretty certain both battalions were equipped with the usual 12 guns, but just want to be sure. I'll consider them as a questioned 12?
Also there was a ErPsto X (4x122 K/31 2x152 H/37)
Is that X the Roman numeral? an X character? In any case, with six guns it looks quite a small battalion. I take it ErPsto means Separate Arty Bn, isn't it? Was it subordinated to any division?
He mention that only a part of the artilery tractors was in the VT-Line on 10.6.1944 and due to that the 10 Division lost 68 guns.
68 guns!!!! wow!!! This pretty much means 10 ID lost all its arty support and remained gun-less for a few days in the worst moment. No wonder it was severely battered. I guess it received new support arty when things quieted somewhat...

Best

Ernesto
Last edited by nometorres on 25 Apr 2008 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 25 Apr 2008 14:14

I have just updated the OOB with the three infantry brigades involved in this campaign. I've also added the Cavalry Brigade. Please, check for accuracy. As always, any help with my questions will be greatly appreciated.

Best

Ernesto

User avatar
patrik.possi
Banned
Posts: 267
Joined: 08 Jul 2007 23:12
Location: Sweden

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by patrik.possi » 26 Apr 2008 14:33

Pioneer batalions

18.D Pion.P 23
2.D Pion.P 33
3.D Pion.P 34
4.D Pion.P 25
6.D Pion.P 36
10.D Pion.P 26
11.D Pion.P 28
15.D Pion.P 31

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 27 Apr 2008 20:18

Another update

This time I added those pioneer battalions provided by Patrik. I also added the Finnish Armored Division and the German 303 Assault Gun Brigade

Next update will deal with Soviet Rifle Divisions

Cheers

Ernesto

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 01 May 2008 20:13

Today I will start building the Soviet OOB.
Let's start with the easy part... Guards Rifle Divisions involved :lol:

21 Army

30 Gds Rifle Corps

45 Guards Rifle Division
129 Rifle Regiment
131 Rifle Regiment
134 Rifle Regiment
96 Artillery Regiment: 24x76 + 12x122

63 Guards Rifle Division
188 Rifle Regiment
190 Rifle Regiment
192 Rifle Regiment
133 Artillery Regiment: 24x76 + 12x122

64 Guards Rifle Division
191 Rifle Regiment
194 Rifle Regiment
197 Rifle Regiment
134 Artillery Regiment: 24x76 + 12x122

As always, any correction/addition is welcome

Best

Ernesto

User avatar
patrik.possi
Banned
Posts: 267
Joined: 08 Jul 2007 23:12
Location: Sweden

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by patrik.possi » 02 May 2008 08:13

21st ARMY (Gusev)

-152nd Tank brigade --June 15th--(withdrawn on Jul 23rd, 1944)
-26th Guards breakthrough tank rgt (withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)
-27th Guards heavy breakthrough tank rgt
-124th Tank regiment --Jun 16th, 1944--
-185th Tank regiment (withdrawn on Jul 25th, 1944)
-351st Guards heavy assault artillery rgt
-952nd Assault artillery regiment

30th Guards rifle corps (Simonjak) (withdrawn on July 5th, 1944)

-45th Guards rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 5th, 1944)
-63rd Guards rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 10th, 1944)
-64th Guards rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 5th, 1944)
-1st Guards tank brigade (withdrawn on July 5th, 1944)
-30th Guards tank brigade --Jun 14th--(withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)
-31st Guards breakthrough tank rgt (withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)
-260th Guards breakthrough tank rgt
-394th Heavy assault artillery regiment
-1238th Assault artillery regiment
-1439th Assault artillery regiment (withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)

97th Rifle corps (Busarov)

-80th Rifle division
-178th Rifle division
-358th Rifle division
-381st Rifle division
-226th Tank regiment
-396th Assault artillery regiment

108th Rifle corps (Tihonov) (withdrawn on Jul 31st, 1944)

-46th Rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 31st, 1944)
-90th Rifle division
-314th Rifle division
-220th tank brigade --Jun 18th--(withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)

109th Rifle corps (Alferov) (withdrawn on Jul 15th, 1944)

-13th Rifle division
-72nd Rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 15th, 1944)
-109th Rifle division
-125th Rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 15th, 1944)
-286th Rifle division
-98th Tank regiment (withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)
-1222nd Assault artillery rgt (withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)

110th Rifle corps (Grjaznov) (withdrawn on Jul 7th, 1944)

-168th Rifle division
-265th Rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 7th, 1944)
-268th Rifle division (withdrawn on Jul 7th, 1944)
-397th Assault artillery regiment (withdrawn on Jul 14th, 1944)

23rd ARMY (Tsherepanov)

-17th Fortified sector
-22nd Fortified sector

6th Rifle corps (Fadejev)

-382nd Rifle division

98th Rifle corps (Anisimov)

-177th Rifle division
-281st Rifle division
-372nd Rifle division
-46th Guards breakthrough tank rgt
-938th Assault artillery regiment

115th Rifle corps (Kozatshek)

-10th Rifle division
-92nd Rifle division
-142nd Rifle division


You should use Esa K exellent list of armoured units for better deatiles.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=103005

The source is an article of Professor Ohto Manninen
in Finnish Military Journal 14. His list of ground forces is based on
Finnish intelligence AND now open Red Army archives. Unfortunately he
doesn't give any info about the organizations and eguipment.

Simon Orchard
Member
Posts: 737
Joined: 01 Jan 2003 22:31
Location: Norway

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by Simon Orchard » 02 May 2008 22:39

You seem to be missing the German 122 Infanterie Division

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 04 May 2008 17:38

Well, not really. I am specifically looking for units fighting in the Isthmus and the Tali-Ihanthala battle. Although the 122 ID was near these fights and fought actively to defeat Soviet attempts to land behind the Finnish lines, it is just barely out of the scope of my intended work... although I could be easily convinced to add the fight for the islands and beachheads once I finnish my work on the isthmus battles proper.

Thanx

Ernesto

User avatar
patrik.possi
Banned
Posts: 267
Joined: 08 Jul 2007 23:12
Location: Sweden

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by patrik.possi » 04 May 2008 21:44

Other units involved at the figthing of the Isthmus 1944

Finns

Raja JP.2
JR 61
LeR 3
LeR 4
HLe.Lv.26
Units from 3rd AA Reg

Soviet

17th Aslt. Pioneer brigade
260 Naval brigade
13th Air army
Red banner baltic fleet airforce
Red banner baltic fleet

German

Detachment Kuhlmey
I/SG 3: 33 Junkers Ju 87 D5 Stuka dive bombers
II/JG 54: 29–62 Focke-Wulf Fw 190 A-6 fighters
(I/SG 5: 16 Focke-Wulf Fw 190 F-3 and F-8 jabos at Alakurtti.) Off map :lol:
I/NaGr 5: 1–8 Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-8 reconnaissance aircraft

A good link who could provide some info

http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/fmp_contents.html

for artilery

http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/fmp ... 41_45.html
• I guess one of the Heavy Artillery Battalions listed as attached was organic to 2 ID. I tend to think it was Rask Psto 20, but I am not sure. Which one was part of 2 ID?
In Finnish wikipedia i says Rask Psto 27
• 3.D What guns did Arty units have?
KTR 16
8 x 76 K/36
4 x 76 K/02
12 x 122 H/10-30
12 x 155 H/17

Rask Psto 16
12 x 105 H/37
• What guns did KTR 1 have?
12 x 76 K/02
12 x 76 K/02
12 x 152 H/09-30
14 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 14)
12 x 75 K/17
12 x 122 H/10-30
12 x 155 H/17













Questions regarding the Armored Division
• What was the operational importance of tank battalions equipped with Soviet-built tanks?
The Heavy Coy's (with T34, KV tanks and T28) counterattack at Portinhoikka June 25th who destroyed the 27th Soviet armored regiment is belived to be one of crusial events who saved the VKT line and eventually Finland from becoming a Pepoles Democracy.

From a previous post from Mikko H

The Armored Division was ordered to attack and drive the enemy from the crossroads. Maj. Heikki Mikkola, commander of the I battalion of the Panzer Brigade, started a counter-attack with the heavy company of his battalion from the direction of Juustila. With five tanks, one T-34-76, one KV-1, two T-28's and one T-50, it drove the enemy from the Portinhoikka crossroads, destroying four T-34-85's and ISU-152's. This was indeed nothing short of miraculous, given that not one of the Finnish tanks had a main gun that could penetrate the front armor of the Soviet tanks! [Later note: other sources indicate that the majority of the Soviet tanks were destroyed by Lt. Col. Inkinen's engineers, not by Maj. Mikkola's tanks, thus explaining the 'miracle'.] By 7 pm. the Portinhoikka crossroads were back in Finnish hands and a number of Soviet tanks, T-34-85s and ISU-152's, were captured intact. By that time the two battalions of the IR 48 had been forced to retreat from their positions west of Lake Leitimonjärvi.

• What was the operational importance of the BT-42 unit?
According to one of my books, one BT42 hit a KV tank 18 times without doing any serious damage to the enemy. The independent Tank Coy only real action was in the defence of Viipuri, where the BT42 was unable to do enemy tanks any harm, after the fall of the city, the Coy was withdrawn from frontline, and 7th of July Finnish GHQ orded the Coy to be disolved and the tanks to be scraped.


Questions regarding 20 IB
• What artillery units did this brigade have?
Kev Psto 20 12 x 76 K/02
Rask Psto 40 12 x 152 H/37 (had only 400 artilery round avalible during the fall of Viipuri)

The brigade had 2. 75mm AT guns and 5. 45mm AT guns during the 20th of June

• If I’m not wrong 20 IB was an untried and inexperienced unit. Nevertheless it was tasked with the defense of Viipuri… why? Wasn’t there anything better available?
According to a book from 2007 by the Finnish war vet Erik Appel there where 3 formations avalible to choose from; 20 Pr, 17 D. and 18 D. the divisions where experienced. The question of the fall of Viipuri is more complex and can not be solely blamed on the brigade, thou the brigade had its big share of the fauilure. The brigade had really no real chans during the condition it was forced to fight under (Ex. very low stocks of ammo, facing three Soviet corps and 2 armored brigades. ). The IV Armycorps commander is by many seen as equally responsibel for the loss of of Viipuri.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... &sk=t&sd=a
• Were Separate Battalions equivalent to regimental battalions or did they have different TO&Es?
From what I have understanded the ErP was organized as the regimentel battalions. The ErP was to replace the divisions 3rd regiments as a Division reserv when the Finnsih division changed from 3 to 2 regiments

Swedish Vol. coy.

During the battle the coy consited of 64 men, where 11 where actually swedish speaking Finns, the rest 53 was Swedish volunters. The coy lost 11 KIA 27 WIA and 2 MIA. More on this in a upcoming post.

• Was the Swedish volunteer coy in addition to regular coys of the regiment or did it substitute one of them… in other words, was JR 13 reinforced with an extra volunteer coy or did it have the usual number of coys?

303 Assault Gun Brigade (StuG Bde 303)

According to english Wikipedia it had 22 StuG III Ausf. G assault guns and 9 StuH 42 assault howitzers when it arrived to Finland.

More on Finnish Pioneers

http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/fmp_pion41_45.html



Ill come back on this and more...

nometorres
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 22 Apr 2008 10:33

Re: OOB for Karelian Isthmus June 1944

Post by nometorres » 07 May 2008 11:56

I can no longer edit the original OOB post, so I'll repeat it here with the additions I've been able to do thanx to the new info kindly provided by Patrik and Harri's website. Lots of questions already solved. Thanx!!!!

2 Infantry Division (JD 2)
7 Infantry Regiment (JR 7)
49 Infantry Regiment (JR 2)
12 Separate Battalion (Er P 12)
3 Native Battalion (Heimo P 3)
15 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 15): 24x76, 8x114, 4x105
27 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 27): 8x155, 4x120
33 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 33)

Artillery units temporarily attached to 2 ID:
24 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 24): 12x105
20 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 20): 12x155
17 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 17): 12x105
18 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 18): 12x152


Questions regarding 2 ID:
• Were Separate Battalions equivalent to regimental battalions or did they have different TO&Es?
• Was the Heimo Battalion equivalent to a regimental battalion? Other than the origin of soldiers, was there anything special in this unit?


3 Infantry Division (JD 3)
11 Infantry Regiment (JR 11)
53 Infantry Regiment (JR 53)
13 Separate Battalion (Er P 13)
16 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 16): 12x76, 12x122, 12x155
16 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 16): 12x105
34 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 34)
31 Signals Battalion (VP 31)

Questions regarding 3 ID:
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 3 ID?

4 Infantry Division (JD 4)
5 Infantry Regiment (JR 5)
25 Infantry Regiment (JR 25)
14 Separate Battalion (Er P 14)
1 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 1): 24x76, 12x 152
22 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 22): 4x105, 8x152
25 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 25)

Questions regarding 4 ID:
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 4 ID?

6 Infantry Division (JD 6)
12 Infantry Regiment (JR 12)
35 Infantry Regiment (JR 35)
16 Separate Battalion (Er P 16)
14 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 14): 12x75, 12x122, 12x155
? Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto ?)
13 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 13): 12x105
36 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 36)

Questions regarding 6 ID:
• What Rask Psto (if any... was it substituted by Kev Psto 13?) was part of 6 ID?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 6 ID?

10 Infantry Division (JD 10)
1 Infantry Regiment (JR 1)
58 Infantry Regiment (JR 58)
20 Separate Battalion (Er P 20)
1st Bn/200 Infantry Regiment (I/JR 200): Estonian volunteers
9 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 9): 24x76, 12x105
25 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 25): 12x122
26 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 26)

Artillery units temporarily attached to 10 ID:
1 Super Heavy Artillery Battalion (Jär Psto 1): 12x155
4 Super Heavy Artillery Battalion (Jär Psto 4): 9x203
28 Super Heavy Coastal Battery (Jär Rt Ptri 28): 3x254
3 Heavy Battery (Rask Ptri 3): 4x122 (possibly motorized)

Questions regarding 10 ID:
• Whas I/200 Bn equivalent to any other Finnish Battalion
• Was 3 Heavy Battery a motorized unit?

11 Infantry Division (JD 11)
30 Infantry Regiment (JR 30)
50 Infantry Regiment (JR 50)
21 Separate Battalion (Er P 21) Not sure about unit id
4 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 4): 12x155, 16x76, 8x122
30 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 30): 12x152
28 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 28)

Questions regarding 11 ID:
• Is 21 Separate Bn correct?
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 11 ID?

15 Infantry Division (JD 15)
15 Infantry Regiment (JR 15) Not sure about unit id
57 Infantry Regiment (JR 57)
25 Separate Battalion (Er P 25) Not sure about unit id
2 Border Jäger Battalion (RajaJP 2)
12 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 12): 12x75, 12x122, 12x152
13 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 13): 12x152
31 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 31)

Artillery units temporarily attached to 15 ID:
22 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 22): 12x75
I/19 Field Artillery Regiment (I/KTR 19): 12x76
12 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 12): 12x105

Questions regarding 15 ID:
• Are unsure units correct?
• Was the Border Jäger Battalion equivalent to an ordinary Jäger Battalion or was it different?
• I have KTR 19 as the Field Arty Regiment of 18 ID. Was the attachment of I/KTR 19 temporary? Is it a mistake? Was 18 ID Field Arty Regiment incomplete due to partial attachment to 15 ID?

18 Infantry Division (JD 18)
6 Infantry Regiment (JR 6)
48 Infantry Regiment (JR 48)
28 Separate Battalion (Er P 28)
II/JR 13 Infantry Battalion. Including a Swedish volunteer company
III/JR 13 Infantry Battalion (From 20-VI to 26-VI)
19 Field Artillery Regiment (KTR 19): 24x76, 12x122 (12x76 may have been attached to 15 ID, see above)
26 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 26): 4x120, 8x155
23 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 23)

Questions regarding 18 ID:
• Was the Swedish volunteer coy in addition to regular coys of the regiment or did it substitute one of them… in other words, was JR 13 reinforced with an extra volunteer coy or did it have the usual number of coys?
• See question for 15 ID regarding KTR 19
• Was there any independent Arty unit attached to 18 ID?


General question regarding infantry divisions: Were all divisions more or less equivalent in quality? I know there’s no big difference between them but, was anyone of them significantly better or worse than the other ones?


3 Infantry Brigade (Jv Pr 3)
Four infantry battalions numbered I-IV
4 Fortification Battalion (Lin P 4)
23 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 23): 12x105
23 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 33): 12x152

Question regarding 3 IB:
• What was the TO&E of a Fortification Battalion?

19 Infantry Brigade (Jv Pr 19)
Four infantry battalions numbered I-IV
6 Separate Battalion (Er P 6). Later attached to 15 ID
14 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 14): 12x105
19 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 19): 12x76
39 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 39): 12x152

Question regarding 19 IB
• When was 6 ErP attached to 15 ID?

20 Infantry Brigade (Jv Pr 20)
Four infantry battalions numbered I-IV
20 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 20): 12x76
40 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 40): 12x152

Cavalry Brigade (Rv Pr)
Häme Mounted Regiment (HRR)
Uusimaa Dragoon Regiment (URR)
1 Jäger Battalion (JP 1)
6 Jäger Battalion (JP 6)
Riding Battery (Ratts Ptri): 6x76
12 Light Artillery Battalion (Kev Psto 12): 12x105

Both cavalry regiments were dismounted in 1943. If I’m not wrong they were equipped with bicycles. They were formed by four squadrons each, roughly the equivalent of a light infantry battalion.

Questions regarding the Cavalry Brigade
• Any other artillery unit supporting this brigade?
• I've seen a couple of sources giving this brigade a numeral: 1 Cav Bde, while others only talk about the Cavalry Brigade. Is the number correct or was the unit unnumbered?

Panzer Division (PsD)
Panzer Brigade(PsPr):
Two Tank Battalions: around 80 T-26, 3 T-34, 2 KV-1, 8 T-28
Independent Tank Company: 18 BT-42
Assault Gun Battalion (RynTykP): 23 StuG III-G
Jäger Brigade (JPr)
2, 3, 4 and 5 Jäger Battalions (JP)
Antitank Battalion: 12x75, 6x50
14 Heavy Artillery Battalion (Rask Psto 14): 12x150
Armored Anti-Aircraft Battery: 6 Landsverk Anti II SPAA
2 Engineer Battalion (Pion P 2)
6 Signals Battalion (VP 6)


303 Assault Gun Brigade (StuG Bde 303)
German unit
3 Batteries for a total of 22 StuG-IIIG + 9 StuH 42

Please, feel free to correct/complete, any info you may find mistaken/incomplete. Thanx in advance for your help.

Best regards

Ernesto

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”