Soviet Spring Offensive over the Svir River 1942

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tramonte
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Re: Soviet Spring Offensive over the Svir River 1942

Post by tramonte » 01 Mar 2020 08:34

Denis1973 wrote:
17 Mar 2009 14:09
ML wrote: Casualties of the whole 7th Army spring offensive were 12774 men, of which 3439 KIA, 8468 WIA and 837 MIA (figures by Juri Kilin, based on Soviet sources). So, the Finnish estimate should be total casualties, not KIA.
But at second message in this topic declared that casualties was 10000 KIA only. So this isn't true, are you agreed?
Thanks for the map - it great! What is the scale - 1 km?
I never really have believed that figure of "10,000 KIA" by some Finnish books comparing just about 500 Finns killed during those battles. It's little bit same with battle of Kiestinki during April-May 1942 where Finns and Germans claimed "15,000 bodies of Red Army soldiers counted". In reality there hardly was any kind of such body count organized. Just hastily made pure estimate. It reminds me of these modern time estimates demonstrations on streets where organizations claiming 100,000, police estimates it just 50,000 and those making professional studies having numbers of less than 30,000. We should always be critical when reading these body count claims. Remember Vietnam War body count?

In Kiestinki more realistic numbers given by Vjatseslav Nikitin (using sources TsAMO, f. 214 o.1427) gives losses of 26th Army 7,077 KIA or DOW during evacuation , 2,981 MIA and 11,801 WIA and sick. Total 21,859. And these are figures of not only Kiestinki battle (24.04-23.05.1942) but all losses of Soviet 26th Army during April-May 1942. And when likely 10-15% of losses have not been those of 4 weeks campaign in Kiestinki we can estimate Finns and Germans double counted Red Army losses. Same with Svir (Syväri) spring offensive if not even more.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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tramonte
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Re: Soviet Spring Offensive over the Svir River 1942

Post by tramonte » 01 Mar 2020 10:26

ML wrote:
17 Mar 2009 08:43
Worst casualties were suffered by 114.RD (5938, of which 1888 KIA, 3584 WIA, 381 MIA, 84 by severe cold and 1 as POW). Casualties of the whole 7th Army spring offensive were 12774 men, of which 3439 KIA, 8468 WIA and 837 MIA (figures by Juri Kilin, based on Soviet sources). So, the Finnish estimate should be total casualties, not KIA.
Finnish digital archives... http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4466264 ... Staff of Group Aunus ( Aunuksen Ryhmän Esikunta) is estimating plainly losses of 114.D "just killed 5600" ("ainoastaan kaatuneina arvioitu 5600"). So definitely there is clear prove that Finnish estimates (Aunus Group) were highly exaggerating losses of 7th Army. They never mentioned estimates of KIA and WIA. Only KIA and POWs. Even guessing that some 10% of wounded soldiers of 114.D later deceased and adding MIA the over claiming rate was ~1:2.5. On the other hand Aunus Group estimated that especially 114.D would have had less WIA than KIA. As figures of Juri Kilinin are suggesting that was not really true.
Last edited by tramonte on 01 Mar 2020 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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tramonte
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Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Finland

Re: Soviet Spring Offensive over the Svir River 1942

Post by tramonte » 01 Mar 2020 16:03

Mangrove wrote:
16 Mar 2009 20:08
Denis1973 wrote:Here is brief translation of war diary of 368 RD (TsAMO, fund of 368 RD, inventory list 1, file 12):
So KIA 359 and WIA 1711 between 11.-21.4.1942.

Martti
Finnish Aunus Group estimated 368D lost 600 KIA. So the real losses of killed in action some 60% of Finnish estimates. That division played minor role in offensive.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4466263
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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