Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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antero59
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Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 03 Apr 2009 16:42

Here are confirmed and checked results of claims and losses of 5 finnish fighter-squadrons (24th, 26th, 28th, 32th and 34th) during Winter War (30.11.39-13.3.40) and Continuation War 25.6.41-4.9.44)

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista

We can find that 24th and 34th fighter-squadrons shut down at least 459 enemy aircrafts during Battle of Karelian Istmus in june and july 1944. Both squadrons had total 22 combat losses in same period. 12 of them by enemy aircraft and 3 "missing in action". Some 15% of enemy aircrafts shut down in that summer were "made in USA". Especially Aircobras.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 03 Apr 2009 17:50

Not all from these victories prove to be true the Soviet documents.
I checked the victories declared by Finns over « winter war ». On bombers exceeds approximately in 1,5 times, on fighters - about 4-5 times.
For example at Lautamaki the victory gained together with Tuominen is confirmed only...

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 03 Apr 2009 19:14

"Not all from these victories prove to be true the Soviet documents"

I won't recommend to trust Soviet documents. I trust more those documents from western allies and Germany. Finnish fighter-pilots must have witness to their claims. They had to see enemy aircraft destroyed or pilot forced to use parachute. Anyt "propably" killings were not add to claims. Only anti-aircraft artillery units classified result as "confirmed", "damaged" etc but also these units didn't count down these one.

E.g Kyösti Karhila forgot to report his last killing in july 1944 after moving to other fighter squadron and they never marked it. In Estonia they reported tens of russian aircraft crashed when coming back from Finland. But these "killings" are not in these lists. They were impossible to proved by anyone.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Apr 2009 19:45

Slon-76 wrote:I checked the victories declared by Finns over « winter war ». On bombers exceeds approximately in 1,5 times, on fighters - about 4-5 times.
Are you sure you aren't writing here about Soviet AF (over)claims?

During Winter War, depending on sources, Finnish AF claimed to have shot down ca. 200 Soviet planes
ca. 40 fighters
ca. 10 recon planes/light bombers (R-5)
ca. 150 bombers

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 03 Apr 2009 20:14

Slon-76 wrote:Not all from these victories prove to be true the Soviet documents.
I checked the victories declared by Finns over « winter war ». On bombers exceeds approximately in 1,5 times, on fighters - about 4-5 times.
These figures you showed are far exaggerating because many of these planes were shot down on the Finnish side and the shot down planes could be found from the ground. In these cases the evidences for a true victory are rather strong. Finnish researchers have noted that all needed Soviet documents have not you been published for some reason so we can't say anything for sure. During the Winter War the victory statistics should be more close to the reality than during the Continuation War.
Slon-76 wrote:For example at Lautamaki the victory gained together with Tuominen is confirmed only...
You mean air combat on 11.2.1940 north from Lake Ladoga between three Finnish Gladiators from Flying Squadron 26 against (about) fifteen Soviet I-16 fighters from the 49 IAP? Accordind to a text in the book Finnish Air Force II 1928 - 1940 (2006) by K. Keskinen, K. Partonen and K. Stenman one I-16 was shot down (page 133/134). On the victory list there are although mentioned that both M.Sgt Tuominen and WO Lautamäki shot down one I-16 in different places. I too think this is a mistake and there should have been only half a victory for both. This victory was originally classed unconfirmed but was confirmed from the Soviet sources later.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 03 Apr 2009 21:48

Harri wrote: These figures you showed are far exaggerating because many of these planes were shot down on the Finnish side and the shot down planes could be found from the ground.
No. It so. (I speak only about Winter war).
For example. On January, 17. From 16 planes SB has returned 9, two more have made landing not on the air station, but have been repaired. In fight it is brought down 5 SB. In detail about fight on January, 17 here, but in Russian:
http: // http://www.allaces.ru/p/episode.php? id=1047
I can still more many examples.

Harri wrote: In these cases the evidences for a true victory are rather strong. Finnish researchers have noted that all needed Soviet documents have not you been published for some reason so we can't say anything for sure.
I can. I work with Russian documents, instead of with the literature.


Harri wrote: You mean air combat on 11.2.1940 north from Lake Ladoga between three Finnish Gladiators from Flying Squadron 26 against (about) fifteen Soviet I-16 fighters from the 49 IAP?
No. I speak about fight 13.02.40.
11.02.40 I-16 have not been shot down. By the way. This fight conducted not 49 IAP, but group of captain Tkachenko.
Harri wrote: Accordind to a text in the book Finnish Air Force II 1928 - 1940 (2006) by K. Keskinen, K. Partonen and K. Stenman one I-16 was shot down (page 133/134).
I among those people from which K.Stenmann received the information on the Soviet losses. My surname is on page 5. Data on loss I-16 11.02.40 - are not present.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 03 Apr 2009 22:05

Juha Tompuri wrote: Are you sure you aren't writing here about Soviet AF (over)claims?
Yes. I am sure

Regards
antero59 wrote: I won't recommend to trust Soviet documents.
Why?
antero59 wrote: I trust more those documents from western allies and Germany. Finnish fighter-pilots must have witness to their claims. They had to see enemy aircraft destroyed or pilot forced to use parachute.
In what to trust - your right.
I would not began to trust, that this rule was precisely observed.

antero59 wrote:But these "killings" are not in these lists. They were impossible to proved by anyone.
These losses are described in documents aviation units. And they are easy for comparing to the Finnish data. You have examples? I can compare. The truth I badly write on english (you, probably, have noticed:)).

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 03 Apr 2009 22:15

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:I checked the victories declared by Finns over « winter war ». On bombers exceeds approximately in 1,5 times, on fighters - about 4-5 times.
Are you sure you aren't writing here about Soviet AF (over)claims?
Excuse me, certainly not 4-5, but 3-4 times.

Slon-76 wrote: In detail about fight on January, 17 here, but in Russian:
http: // http://www.allaces.ru/p/episode.php? id=1047

Correctly
http://www.allaces.ru/p/episode.php? id=1047

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Apr 2009 22:37

Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote: These figures you showed are far exaggerating because many of these planes were shot down on the Finnish side and the shot down planes could be found from the ground.
No. It so. (I speak only about Winter war).
For example. On January, 17. From 16 planes SB has returned 9, two more have made landing not on the air station, but have been repaired. In fight it is brought down 5 SB. In detail about fight on January, 17 here, but in Russian:
http: // http://www.allaces.ru/p/episode.php? id=1047
Do I understand correctly from this babelfish translation from the link you posted...
Even taking into account the twelve biased Finnish fighters declared by pointers, three of which were on the calculation of Chief Petty Officer [V].[G].[Nechaev], radio operator-gunner from the crew of the commander of 3 AE of 54 [sbap], the loss actually of half of group was serious impact. Radio operator-gunners [Nechaev] [Kaskov] for this battle on April 7, 1940. they were honored the Title of Hero of the Soviet Union; however, Constantine Andreevich [Kaskov] obtained “gold star” posthumous - on January 22 he died of the wounds in the hospital.
...that the soviet bombers claimed 12 finnish fighters shot down on that mission, one gunner claiming 3 finnish fighters shot down.
For those acchievements he and another gunner received the highest Soviet award?
And the reality being that no Finnish planes were shot down on that day.
Slon-76 wrote:I can still more many examples.
Please do post.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 03 Apr 2009 23:28

Juha Tompuri wrote: ...that the soviet bombers claimed 12 finnish fighters shot down on that mission, one gunner claiming 3 finnish fighters shot down.
For those acchievements he and another gunner received the highest Soviet award?
And the reality being that no Finnish planes were shot down on that day.
Yes, I know.
16 air brigade has declared in the winter 39/40 41 the shot down fighter, the Finnish data confirm 1-2 of them.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:I can still more many examples.
Please do post.
Please

For December it is declared shot down 11 I-16.
Really in air fights 3 + 1 it is broken because of damages
25/02/40 it is declared shot down 4 R-5
Really damage 3 R-Z, are repaired
In area of 8 armies it is declared shot down 4 I-16.
Really - not...
From 10 planes declared by pilots Fiat's really - 3.
All to write long...
Can any date is interesting?

Regards

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 04 Apr 2009 06:42

I don't argue that there ain't any mistakes on the list of claims of finnish fighter squadrons. There are. Numbers of killings by finnish fighter pilots are between 1560-1575 during Continuation War (1567 is very common figure, 1569 also). Spread could be about +/- 10. Essential thing is that there are tens of times more "killings" which were never marked on lists coz there were any witness for shutdown. Tens of russian aircrafts were destroyed in coastal area of Estonia or near Leningrad when coming back from Finland. These killings were not marked.

Besides unlike western allies aces finnish fighter pilots didn't mark ground-attack killings. Never. Besides historicians have estimated that some 4% of Soviet aircraft losses (combat lossess of all kind, some 100 000 - 110 000) came from frontline Karelian and Karelian Peninsula by finnish AA-artilleries, fighters/bombers. That's not huge proportion and very reliable when we remember that Karelian front and Karelian Istmus front were in "trench warfare" between jan 42 to may 44.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 04 Apr 2009 07:11

During Continuation War Finnish Air Forces "lost" 522 air-crafts. Very interesting and usefull is to check how this was distributed.

522 - 206= 316 aircraft was lost coz aircraft was too old, too damaged, no worth of using, no material to keep it working etc..

Combat losses were 206 aircrafts. Of these 86 were shutdown by enemy aircraft. 66 were shutdown by enemy AA-artillery fire. Together - 152 aircrafts. 54 were lost in combat action (technical, weather, pilot mistake, forced landing, destroyed by ground-attack etc...) - not shut down by enemy forces.

These statistics are interesting coz it tells that enemy forces caused about 74% of combat losses. And actually how many finnish aircraft killings were really seen and proved by russian pilots and anti-aircraft artillery units? Hardly even those 152. I suggest, let's say, 120. Could it be near the truth? Could it be true that perhaps 20% of these killings happened but russian pilots couldn't confirmed it. Perhaps in these way - 86 were really shutdown by russian pilots but only about 70 could be confirmed.

If this is even near the truth then how many Soviet aircrats was really shut down by finnish pilots? If 1567 +/- 10 is confirmed number, as it is, then could it be possible that finnish pilots shut down also 1567x20/100= ~ 310 aircrafts but couldn't confirmed it. And then there was another combat losses of some 20% when damaged russian aircraft didn't managed to make successful forced landing etc.

I estimated that much more than 2000 Soviet aircrafts were actually shut down by finnish fighterpilots during the Continuation War but only 1565 +/- 10 was confirmed.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 04 Apr 2009 07:33

OK. Finnish pilots claimed to have shut down 1567 (or 1569) enemy aircrafts. Finnish anti-aircraft artillery units claimed to have shut down 1031 aircrafts + 75 by Navy antiaircraft fire= 1106.

1567 by pilots of fighter squadrons
1106 by antiaircraft fire
_______________________________
2673
58,6% by pilots of fighter squadrons

Finns reported to have lost 152 aircrafts by enemy fire (combat air action).

86 by enemy pilots
66 by enemy antiaircraft fire
______________________________
152
56,6% by enemy pilots

Link: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatkosodan ... a#Tulokset

(there is also claim that Finnish Air Force squadrons (including bomber units) destroyd 1612 enemy aircraft by shut down or destroyed in airbases. Number of aircraft destroyed in groundattacks must bes relatively low - only about 55-57, hardly overcalculated. )

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 04 Apr 2009 08:02

antero59 wrote: I estimated that much more than 2000 Soviet aircrafts were actually shut down by finnish fighterpilots during the Continuation War but only 1565 +/- 10 was confirmed.
I am not ready to discuss Continuation War. It not my competence
On Winter war on three included bombers two really shot down (it is very good parameter, but not +/- 10); fighters - 3-4 to 1
About broken in Estonia.
Usually, documents Soviet units speak about the reasons of loss (it is damaged(injured) in air fight or another). Very rare cases when loss is, the Finn of the application for it are not present.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 04 Apr 2009 10:32

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote: Do I understand correctly from this babelfish translation from the link you posted...that the soviet bombers claimed 12 finnish fighters shot down on that mission, one gunner claiming 3 finnish fighters shot down.
For those acchievements he and another gunner received the highest Soviet award?
Yes, you have understood all truly.

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