Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by SVaaka » 08 Apr 2009 20:30

Well you just seemd to loose the point what I was after. I did not make any claims that FA would have had a airsupermacy over Sovjet airforces at any time durin The Winter War or later. My point was simply that - that it could be quite healthy even in Russia to approve that claims of the airvictories over FA during The Winter War were - not so right.

Two samples:

February 2nd 1940 Hero of Sovjet Union colonel N.Toroptsin told that his rigiment met in air 18 finnish fighters, his regiment flew with strength of 12 planes. The battle happened over Imatra railwaystation, lasting some 15 to 20 minutes.
In this battle they shoot down 12 finnish fighters , without own loses. To the end of war his regiment shoot down 52 finnish planes - and without own loses. Because of this col Toroptsin was named a hero of Sovjet Union and his regiment was decorated with order of Red Star.

Military correspondent Ilja Frenkel wrote - That sovjet pilot Antonov shoot down three Fokkerd D21 fighters in single battle 2nd february 1940 klo 16.10-16.35. During this battle several other pilots claimed airvictories and some Fokker planes were also destroyed in ground. After this pilot Antonov was named hero of Sovjet Union.

And reality:

During 2nd February 1940 FA lost one fighter plane when danish voluenteer war shot down near Saimaa at Ukonsaari. No other FA planes were lost during 2nd february 1940.

These two samples can be found from sovjet documents - if reguired - I can name them.

How heroic were these Sovjet Pilots?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Apr 2009 20:31

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Actually Lautamäki earlier shot down/shared a SB-2 (from 10AB?) 14th Jan-40.


Probably. Has really been lost SB 35 LBAP.
However, 80 % that it not Lautamaki but AA.
I can not explain more in detail. The knowledge of language does not allow.
As far as I know no-one from that plane lived to tell.
Lautamäki reported that he had damaged the plane, but because of coming darkness he could not continue pursuiting the SB. Shortly later the SB was reported to have exploded at Perniö.
Slon-76 wrote:I can not explain more in detail. The knowledge of language does not allow.
No problem by so far.
One of the best things at this Forum is that only very rarely us "far-from-perfect-in-english-writers" have been complained from what we have written.
The Forum language is english, but as you seem to be dedicated to this subject, I think we can make here an exeption, and you can shortly also write in russian. Someone perhaps can then translate it to english (if no-one is interested, I can post a babelfish one).
OK?

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: 1st Dec-39
SSerg Toivo Uuttu flying Bristol Bulldog ,claimed a I-16 damaged.
Later from Soviet memoirs it was found out that the plane, from 7 IAP, was shot down.


100% overclaim. I-16 7 IAP (P.I. Pokryshev) has been damaged AA above a front line. Landing and has been repaired. Uuttu has no to it of the attitude.
As far as I know, no Finns have claimed there a AA-hit to a Soviet plane.
Uuttu mentioned hittimg a I-16, seeing smoke coming and the I-16 going downwards (from altitude of ca. 1000m)
Strange coincidence, if at same time at same area Soviet version reports action against Finnish plane (VL Tuisku, unarmed trainer - of course that coudn't "shoot back")
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: 13th Jan-40 Capt O. Ehrnrooth shot down a SB-2 from 35 LBAP
Sorry, but not. 13th Jan-40 Capt O. Ehrnrooth attacked, but has not shot down, DB-3 53 DBAP.

13 января 1940 г.

35 ЛБАП двумя эскадрильями (18 СБ) бомбил ж.д. узел Рихимяки. Еще три эскадрильи нанесли удары по ж.д. узлам Сало, Фридриксберг и Хаменлинна. Пара СБ сбросила бомбы на зенитную батарею на о. Руссаре. Еще один СБ, потеряв свою группу, сбросил бомбы на ст. Кютяя. Во всех случаях, исключая удар по Кютяя, экипажи наблюдали поражение целей, в Хаменлинне был отмечен пожар.
53 ДБАП совершил два налета. 13 ДБ-3 бомбили ж.д. узел Тампере, вызвав в городе многочисленные пожары. Над целью бомбардировщики были атакованы «белым монопланом с убирающимся шасси», который был сбит стрелком-радистом Драбецким. Вероятно, это была первая встреча с истребителями Фиат G.50, пара которых поступила в Финляндию в декабре. Фиаты пока находились в распоряжении испытательного звена авиазаводе в Тампере (KoeLentue – KoeL). Истребители несли итальянский «песчаный» камуфляж, который в горячке боя вполне могли принять за белый.
Второй налет был произведен на ж.д. узел Лахти. 12 ДБ-3 с высоты 3700 м сбросили на цель 94 ФАБ-100 и 25 ЗАБ-50. По докладу пилотов цель была поражена. Еще один ДБ-3 сбросил бомбы на ж.д. узел Карис. Эту же цель атаковали с пикирования 48 И-153 38 ИАП.
Babelfish translation:
On January 13, 1940. 35 [LBAP] by two squadrons (18 sb) bombed [zh].[d]. the unit Of [rikhimyaki]. three additional squadrons delivered impacts on [zh].[d]. to units fat, [Fridriksberg] and [Khamenlinna]. Pair sb dropped bombs to the antiaircraft battery on the Is. To [russare]. One additional sb, after losing its group, dropped bombs on st. [Kyutyaya]. In all cases, excluding impact on [Kyutyaya], crews observed destruction of targets, in [Khamenlinne] was noted the fire. 53 [DBAP] it completed two attacks. 13 dB -3 bombed [zh].[d]. unit To [tampere], after causing in the city numerous fires. Above the purpose the bombers were attacked “white monoplane with the retractable chassis”, which was biased by [strelkom]- radio operator [Drabetsky]. Probably, this was the first meeting with the fighters the Fiat Of g.50, whose pair entered into Finland in December. Fiats thus far were located at the disposal of test component aircraft factory in [Tampere] (KoeLentue - KoeL). Fighters bore the Italian “sandy” camouflage, which in the fever of battle completely they could accept for the white. The second attack was produced to [zh].[d]. unit [Lakhti]. 12 dB -3 from the height of 3700 m dropped to the purpose 94 [FAB]-100 and 25 ZAB -50. The purpose was struck on the report of pilots. One additional dB -3 dropped bombs to [zh].[d]. the unit Of [karis]. The same purpose they attacked from the dive 48 I -153 of 38 [IAP].
So you seem to disagree with Geust-Petrov-Tirkeltaub (Red Stars vol5) and the earlier Protiv Finljandii. Sovemskaja morskaja aviatsija na Balmike v vojne 1939-1940 godov (Against Finland. Soviet naval aviation in the Baltic in the Winter War 1939-1940) by Tirkeltaub and Stepakov ?
You mean that the plane of the crew Zaitsev-Jerzhankin-Amurtsev all KIA, plane wreck later located and examined at Riihimäki wasn't shot down at all?
No Finnish AA claims to that plane AFAIK.
What does the Soviet archives tell about the fate of that plane?


Regards, Juha

P.S. What are your sources?
Mine are mostly the Keskinen & co and Geust & co books.
Also the C-E Bruun Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 book

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by SVaaka » 08 Apr 2009 20:46

Slon -76 - you named 15 individual loses of Sovjet fighters during The Winter War - did your list include those fighters that FA captured? Number we managed to capture was 14 - and these were used againt Sovjet Union during The Continuation War. If loses were only 15 - so only possiability is that FA and state Aircraft Factory had in Finland world best mechanics or Sovjet Planes were so well built that they did not suffer any damages when shoot down :).

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 20:56

SVaaka wrote:Slon -76 - you named 15 individual loses of Sovjet fighters during The Winter War - did your list include those fighters that FA captured? Number we managed to capture was 14 - and these were used againt Sovjet Union during The Continuation War. If loses were only 15 - so only possiability is that FA and state Aircraft Factory had in Finland world best mechanics or Sovjet Planes were so well built that they did not suffer any damages when shoot down :).
Losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters.
It not all losses of the Soviet fighters.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Apr 2009 20:59

Slon-76 wrote:Losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters. As well as promised.



23.12.39 I-16 4/68 IAP Arhipov POW SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Grigorev KIA SE Viipuri Shot down in air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Zolotarjev MIA SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
27.12.39 I-15bis AG Tkachenko Lysenko Wound. Suoja:rvi Shot down in air combat
01.02.40 I-16 2/7 IAP Kalinin KIA Huumola Shot down in air combat
02.02.40 I-16 1/149 IAP Kiselev MIA 20 km S Korija MIA. After air combat
02.02.40 I-153 3/38 IAP Bedarev POW Near Hanko Shot down in air combat
13.02.40 I-15bis AG Tkachenko Kochmala KIA Va:rtsila: Shot down in air combat
19.02.40 I-153 2/149 IAP Yentcsh MIA NW Viipuri MIA. After air combat
19.02.40 I-153 2/149 IAP Osipov MIA NW Viipuri MIA. After air combat
27.02.40 I-15bis 5/149 IAP Ivanov Wound. Kotka Crash between Gogland and Lavensaari after air combat
29.02.40 I-16 68 IAP Volohov MIA Ruokolahti MIA. After air combat
02.03.40 I-153 11 OIAE Ivanov KIA Turku Shot down in air combat
05.03.40 I-153 68 IAP Semin KIA A:yura:pa:a: Shot down in air combat
07.03.40 I-153 148 IAP Zaichikov ? Rieksja:rvi Shot down in air combat
Thanks for the list.
Very interesting, it will take a while for me to check it through.
One quick note, how about the Soviet info about the loss of the Senior Ltn Yefimov I-16 at Ruokolahti 29th Feb-40?
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Also, do you happen to know the Soviet losses at 29th Feb-40 at Ruokolahti ?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6325&hilit


I have nothing to add.
Two have not returned I-16, I-153 all have returned.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 21:05

SVaaka wrote: Well you just seemd to loose the point what I was after. I did not make any claims that FA would have had a airsupermacy over Sovjet airforces at any time durin The Winter War or later. My point was simply that - that it could be quite healthy even in Russia to approve that claims of the airvictories over FA during The Winter War were - not so right.
We speak about the Finnish victories, whether not so?
Wish to talk about the Soviet victories - there are no problems. But it is other theme.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 22:07

Juha Tompuri wrote: Thanks for the list.
Very interesting, it will take a while for me to check it through.
One quick note, how about the Soviet info about the loss of the Senior Ltn Yefimov I-16 at Ruokolahti 29th Feb-40?
I do not know, how it will be in English :)
Here a piece of the document 68 IAP about fight on 29-th of February:

Потери:
1) В результате крутого пикирования и засасывания лыж самолет пилотируемый командиром 1 аэ ст. лейтенантом Ефимовым вошел в отрицательное пике и на выводе врезался в лес.
2) Лейтенант тов. Волохов на свой аэродром не вернулся.
...
7) Самолет И-16 ТИП 5 в условиях свободного воздушного боя переходил в отрицательное пике. 29.02.40 на лицо случай с Ефимовым и двумя летчиками, которые благодаря запасу высоты вышли из пике.

The part of this document is printed in "Suomien ilmavoimat 1928-1940" page 152

Juha Tompuri wrote: As far as I know, no Finns have claimed there a AA-hit to a Soviet plane.
Uuttu mentioned hittimg a I-16, seeing smoke coming and the I-16 going downwards (from altitude of ca. 1000m)
Strange coincidence, if at same time at same area Soviet version reports action against Finnish plane (VL Tuisku, unarmed trainer - of course that coudn't "shoot back")
Here a fragment of fighting report Shinkarenko about fight with Uutu:

Придя на место предполагаемого противника в район озеро Каук-ярви противника не обнаружено. На высоте 700 метров патрулировало звено И-16. Пройдя по дороге на город Кюреля на высоте 1500 метров обнаружен самолет противника истребительного типа полутороплан над озером Юск-ярви. Звеном в составе старшего лейтенанта Шинкаренко, старшего политрука Диденко и лейтенанта Григорьева произведен обстрел с-та который в бой не вступил и после открытия огня перешел в крутое пикирование с углом 60-70о было 2 попытки вывести с-т в горизонтальный полет но после 2й попытки опять перешел в пикирование с углом 60-70о пикировал до высоты 100-75 метров где пытаясь выводить скрылся в дыму который в результате пожара закрыл местность до высоты 70-100 метров в котором видимости совершенно не было. По предположениям летного состава самолет врезался в лес.


1. Pokryshev with them any more was not. Нe has lagged behind earlier.
2. Him I-16 have repaired. It has not been lost.
3. From the ground shoots not only air defence... :D

Under Soviet version Uutu did not shoot

Juha Tompuri wrote: So you seem to disagree with Geust-Petrov-Tirkeltaub (Red Stars vol5) and the earlier Protiv Finljandii. Sovemskaja morskaja aviatsija na Balmike v vojne 1939-1940 godov (Against Finland. Soviet naval aviation in the Baltic in the Winter War 1939-1940) by Tirkeltaub and Stepakov ?
Yes, it absolutely disagree.
Juha Tompuri wrote: You mean that the plane of the crew Zaitsev-Jerzhankin-Amurtsev all KIA, plane wreck later located and examined at Riihimäki wasn't shot down at all?
No Finnish AA claims to that plane AFAIK.
What does the Soviet archives tell about the fate of that plane?
Zaizev has been MIA on 14-th of January above station Kervo. So it is written down in " Magazine of operations " OABr. Lautamaki shot down either him, or anybody...
You still are surprised, why I think, what it not Lautamaki? :D
Juha Tompuri wrote: P.S. What are your sources?
The Russian State Military Archive.

Regards

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Apr 2009 22:49

Slon-76 wrote:I do not know, how it will be in English :)
Here a piece of the document 68 IAP about fight on 29-th of February:

Потери:
1) В результате крутого пикирования и засасывания лыж самолет пилотируемый командиром 1 аэ ст. лейтенантом Ефимовым вошел в отрицательное пике и на выводе врезался в лес.
2) Лейтенант тов. Волохов на свой аэродром не вернулся.
...
7) Самолет И-16 ТИП 5 в условиях свободного воздушного боя переходил в отрицательное пике. 29.02.40 на лицо случай с Ефимовым и двумя летчиками, которые благодаря запасу высоты вышли из пике.
Hmmm... not very readable...
Losses: 1) As a result the nose dive and the sucking in of skis aircraft piloted by the commander of 1 AE st. Lieutenant [Efimov] entered into the negative peak and on the conclusion cut into the forest. 2) The Lieutenant of comrade [Volokhov] to his airfield did not return. … 7) Aircraft I -16 TYPE 5 under the conditions for free air battle passed into the negative peak. 29.02.40 to face the case with The [efimovym] and two pilots, who because of an altitude margin left peak.
well... could it be that according to the Soviet data, during the battle manoeuvres, the plane of Efimov stalled and fell to the woods?
Slon-76 wrote:The part of this document is printed in "Suomien ilmavoimat 1928-1940" page 152
For some reason I can't find that documnt at that book.

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: As far as I know, no Finns have claimed there a AA-hit to a Soviet plane.
Uuttu mentioned hittimg a I-16, seeing smoke coming and the I-16 going downwards (from altitude of ca. 1000m)
Strange coincidence, if at same time at same area Soviet version reports action against Finnish plane (VL Tuisku, unarmed trainer - of course that coudn't "shoot back")
Here a fragment of fighting report Shinkarenko about fight with Uutu:

Придя на место предполагаемого противника в район озеро Каук-ярви противника не обнаружено. На высоте 700 метров патрулировало звено И-16. Пройдя по дороге на город Кюреля на высоте 1500 метров обнаружен самолет противника истребительного типа полутороплан над озером Юск-ярви. Звеном в составе старшего лейтенанта Шинкаренко, старшего политрука Диденко и лейтенанта Григорьева произведен обстрел с-та который в бой не вступил и после открытия огня перешел в крутое пикирование с углом 60-70о было 2 попытки вывести с-т в горизонтальный полет но после 2й попытки опять перешел в пикирование с углом 60-70о пикировал до высоты 100-75 метров где пытаясь выводить скрылся в дыму который в результате пожара закрыл местность до высоты 70-100 метров в котором видимости совершенно не было. По предположениям летного состава самолет врезался в лес.


1. Pokryshev with them any more was not. Нe has lagged behind earlier.
2. Him I-16 have repaired. It has not been lost.
3. From the ground shoots not only air defence... :D

Under Soviet version Uutu did not shoot
Babelfish translation:
After arriving in the place of the assumed enemy into the region the lake Of [kauk]-[yarvi] of enemy not discovered. The component I, patrolled at the height of 700 meters. After passing along the road to [Kyurelya] city at the height of 1500 meters it is discovered the aircraft of destructive type enemy the sesquiplane above [Yusk]-[yarvi] lake. Component in the composition of the Senior Lieutenant [Shinkarenko], elder political instructor [Didenko] and Lieutenant Grigoryev produced firing hundred whom into the battle it did not enter also after opening fire it passed into the nose dive with the angle 60-70[o] was 2 attempts to derive T in the level flight but after 2[y] of attempt it again passed into the dive with the angle 60-70[o] it dived to the height of 100-75 meters where attempting to derive it was hidden in to smoke whom as a result fire shut locality to the height of 70-100 meters in which there was no visibility completely. On the assumptions of crew the aircraft cut into the forest.
There was a pair of Finnish Bulldogs flying there, wonder why the other is not mentioned?
Not even Finnish infantry has AFAIK claimed a plane at that day there. How about Soviet infantry?

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: So you seem to disagree with Geust-Petrov-Tirkeltaub (Red Stars vol5) and the earlier Protiv Finljandii. Sovemskaja morskaja aviatsija na Balmike v vojne 1939-1940 godov (Against Finland. Soviet naval aviation in the Baltic in the Winter War 1939-1940) by Tirkeltaub and Stepakov ?
Yes, it absolutely disagree.
Juha Tompuri wrote: You mean that the plane of the crew Zaitsev-Jerzhankin-Amurtsev all KIA, plane wreck later located and examined at Riihimäki wasn't shot down at all?
No Finnish AA claims to that plane AFAIK.
What does the Soviet archives tell about the fate of that plane?
Zaizev has been MIA on 14-th of January above station Kervo. So it is written down in " Magazine of operations " OABr. Lautamaki shot down either him, or anybody...
Actually Red Stars 5 mentions Ehrnrooth 13th Jan as the reason and date.
Slon-76 wrote:You still are surprised, why I think, what it not Lautamaki? :D
Lautamäki shot/shared a SB a day later at 14th Jan-40

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 09 Apr 2009 07:52

Juha Tompuri wrote:
well... could it be that according to the Soviet data, during the battle manoeuvres, the plane of Efimov stalled and fell to the woods?
Approximately so...
The plane from a dive after the first attack has not had time to leave
Juha Tompuri wrote:
For some reason I can't find that documnt at that book.
In the book there is no this part of the document
Juha Tompuri wrote:
There was a pair of Finnish Bulldogs flying there, wonder why the other is not mentioned?
Could not see simply.
And who was the second pilot?
Uutu too about him does not recollect.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Not even Finnish infantry has AFAIK claimed a plane at that day there. How about Soviet?
It is not surprising. The bullet has got in an oil radiator I-16 (One more argument not for the benefit of Uutu. A radiator from below). The engine has jammed later.
Juha Tompuri wrote: Actually Red Stars 5 mentions Ehrnrooth 13th Jan as the reason and date.
And still it not so.
"The magazine of operations " OABr unequivocally speaks, that Zaitsev 14-th was missing.
And 13-th record about a meeting with FIAT's is. But at 53 DBAP
Juha Tompuri wrote: Lautamäki shot/shared a SB a day later at 14th Jan-40
?
According to the classical book " Ilmavoimat talvisodassa " - 14-th.
In book Stenman & Keskinen about finish experts (SIH 26. Ilmavoitot. Osa 1), this victory in general is not present.


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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Mangrove » 09 Apr 2009 13:00

SVaaka wrote: These two samples can be found from sovjet documents - if reguired - I can name them.
Please, do so.

Martti

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 09 Apr 2009 17:13

Here are my notes to Slon-76:

Finnish tactics was to attack mainly against bombers, not fighters because Fokker D.XXI fighters were not agile enough for such. Gladiators were more agile but also unarmoured so after the initial success they too avoided Soviet fighters if possible.

1.12.1939 (quotes from FiAF II 1928 - 1940, page 91 [additions mine]):
The first fighter contact was made at 11:45 hours when six Polikarpov I-16 fighters of 7 IAP (Fighter aviation regiment) jumped a Bulldog pair [patrol] of LLv. 26. While one Bulldog got separated, the other [BU-64] piloted by SSgt Toivo Uuttu was left alone to fight Russians [Soviets]. After scoring hits in one Rata he himself was also shot down and he crashed at Muolaanjärvi getting injured in the process. Uuttu's victim also came down and became the first aerial victory ever over Finland.
This aerial victory was originally unwittnessed.

19.12.1939 (page 99/100):
LLv. 24 flew then 58 sorties to the front on the Karelian Isthmus and was engaged in combat on 22 occasions bewteen 10:50 and 15:20 hours. The Soviets lost seven SBs, six thereof from 44 SBAP and five Ilyushin DB-3s from other regiments [1x 6 DBAP, some were actually SBs from 13 and 44 SBAP]. However, SSgt [Kelpo] Virta [FR-84] was the first in action and claimed two [I-16 from 68 IAP, another was originally unwitnessed] shot down. The ground troops observed both crashes and Virta was credited with two aircraft destroyed.

[Lt. P.-E. Sovelius 4./LLv.24:] "I did the return flight at 3000 metres and while about 5 kilometres above the the land I observed a-a artillery explosions. On the south coast of Muolaanjärvi two I-16s managed to take by surprise coming from the sun. I woke up when bullets rustled my plane.
I pulled instantly towards them but noticed soon that the I-16 was more manouevrable than the Fokker. I tried to tighten my turns but got only once the enemy into my sight and fired a short burst. I noticed at the same time that I had ammunition left only in one gun. Once after trying to turn as tight as possible I lost control and slippen into spin [tip stall common to Fokker D.XXI]. I continued to make all sorts of evasive actions and down at the surface I manged to shake my pursuers. I was then nearby Heinjoki.
Both I-16s attacked simultaneously and obviously in order to avoid a collision did not get straight behind me and were forced to shoot with with a small deflection. Judged by the tracers the I-16s seemed to fire all the time even when my plane was clearly out of their sights.
After the mission my plane had two hits. One in the tail plane and another gone in trough mg compression bottle hatch and out from the fuselage bottom."
20.12.1939 (page 100/101):
LLv. 24 added two fighters [I-16] [FR-90/SSgt L. Rautakorpi and FR-87/Lt Jaakko Vuorela] and one [SB from 24 SBAP] bomber [FR-76 with gun pods/Lt Tatu Huhanantti] to its score on the Karelian Isthmus.
[...]
One Blenheim of LLv.46 was chased by three I-16s [probably from 49 IAP] over Salmi when the rear gunner [Sgt V. Mörsky] managed to shoot down one attacker, the first kill scored by the gunners.
23.12.1939 (pages 101-103):
The engagements of the day totalled 21 and during fighter duels further two I-16s of 7 IAP and two of 64 IAP were shot down. Sgt Pentti Tilli accounted for both of the former and Lt Urho Nieminen and 2Lt Heikki Ilveskorpi the latter. On the other hand one Fokker D.XXI [FR-111] was hit [by 1-16 from 25 IAP] and Sgt Tauno Kaarma was injured when he crashed the plane [forced landing].
On this very busy day 7 IAP claimed seven fighters [see above] and one bomber [none was lost] shot down and 25 IAP a further three reconnaissance aircraft [only one Fokker C.X FK-96/LLv.12 was shot down, one Fokker C.X piloted by Lt. Heikki Kalaja/LLv.10 was attacked and damaged; Kalaja WIA and observer 2Lt N. Lintunen KIA] and two bi-planes. Over Estonia 5 IAP, kBF claimed one [VL] Kotka [was VL Ripon RI-155/LLv.36] shot down [pilots bailed out but were murderd in the air by pilots of the Soviet I-153 fighters].
26.12.1939 (page 106/107):
LLv.24 fighters flew almost 50 sorties but the SOviet bombers avaded combat.
[...]
The Soviets lost on the Karelian Isthmus three SB bombers of 2 SBAP [one was originally unwitnesses, additionally one SB was damaged] and WO [Viktor] Pyötsiä [Detachment Luukkanen/LLv.24] in FR-110 two Polikarpov I-15bis [I-152] fighters north of Lake Ladoga. [witnessed victories, not confirmation found from Soviet archives]
31.12.1939 (page 109):
On the last day of the year Sgt Ilmari [actually Eino "Illu"] Juutilainen. member of LLv.24's Detachment Luukkanen and the future top scorer with 94 kills blasted behind Lt Jorma "Joppe" Karhunen's tail a lone I-16 on the northern shore of Lake Ladoga [at Uomaa].
-----

29.2.1940:
You mentioned earlier self that two Soviet fighters (1-16 and I-153) missed during the combat on Ruokolahti - Imatra area. I can't see the I-153 in your list. Actually Finns know three certain cases, so dig your archives for these three [all from 68 IAP ?]:
- I-16 fighter flown by Senior Lt Yefimov (KIA) was shot down or collided with (according to some sources was rammed by) Lt. Huhanantti's Fokker FR-94 that also detroyed.
- I-16 fighter was shot down by Sgt Sulo Suikkanen of LLv.26 flying Gladiator. Pilot Lt Volokhovitsh bailed out and was captured by the Finns.
- I-153 fighter (pilot unknown, KIA) was shot down by Mechanic V. Saunamäki using one ot the two old observer MGs assigned for AA protection of the base. Plane and the died pilot were found from the nearby forest some time later by children.

The year 1940 will be continued soon.
Last edited by Harri on 10 Apr 2009 13:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Slon-76
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 09 Apr 2009 19:39

Harri wrote: 1.12.1939 (quotes from FiAF II 1939 - 1940, page 91 [additions mine]):
This aerial victory was originally unwittnessed.
This music will be eternal... :)
Harri wrote: 19.12.1939 (page 99/100):
LLv. 24 flew then 58 sorties to the front on the Karelian Isthmus and was engaged in combat on 22 occasions bewteen 10:50 and 15:20 hours. The Soviets lost seven SBs, six thereof from 44 SBAP and five Ilyushin DB-3s from other regiments [1x 6 DBAP, some were actually SBs from 13 and 44 SBAP]. However, SSgt [Kelpo] Virta [FR-84] was the first in action and claimed two [I-16 from 68 IAP, another was originally unwitnessed] shot down. The ground troops observed both crashes and Virta was credited with two aircraft destroyed.
Both planes (I-16) have fallen on the Finnish side of front?
If is not present, how the Finnish soldiers could see their crashes?
I spoke about the Soviet losses 19-th December.

20/12/39
LLv. 24 added two fighters [I-16] [FR-90/SSgt L. Rautakorpi and FR-87/Lt Jaakko Vuorela]
Fight was with fighters 68 IAP. Regiment of losses had no, and claimed 1 D.XXI
One Blenheim of LLv.46 was chased by three I-16s [probably from 49 IAP] over Salmi when the rear gunner [Sgt V. Mörsky] managed to shoot down one attacker, the first kill scored by the gunners.
Has probably, really damaged I-16 49 IAP

23/12/39
The engagements of the day totalled 21 and during fighter duels further two I-16s of 7 IAP and two of 64 IAP were shot down. Sgt Pentti Tilli accounted for both of the former and Lt Urho Nieminen and 2Lt Heikki Ilveskorpi the latter. On the other hand one Fokker D.XXI [FR-111] was hit [by 1-16 from 25 IAP] and Sgt Tauno Kaarma was injured when he crashed the plane [forced landing].
64 IAP was not . 68 IAP has lost 1 I-16
The Soviets lost on the Karelian Isthmus three SB bombers of 2 SBAP [one was originally unwitnesses, additionally one SB was damaged] and WO [Viktor] Pyötsiä [Detachment Luukkanen/LLv.24] in FR-110 two Polikarpov I-15bis [I-152] fighters north of Lake Ladoga. [witnessed victories, not confirmation found from Soviet archives]
It is shot down 1 I-15bis. The second is damaged, but restored.
On the last day of the year Sgt Ilmari [actually Eino "Illu"] Juutilainen. member of LLv.24's Detachment Luukkanen and the future top scorer with 94 kills blasted behind Lt Jorma "Joppe" Karhunen's tail a lone I-16 on the northern shore of Lake Ladoga [at Uomaa].
Not losses. I read Lorentz's message on this fight. Juutilainen has missed I-16 in clouds.
You mentioned earlier self that two Soviet fighters (1-16 and I-153) missed during the combat on Ruokolahti - Imatra area. I can't see the I-153 in your list. Actually Finns know three certain cases, so dig your archives for these three [all from 68 IAP ?]:
- I-153 fighter (pilot unknown, KIA) was shot down by Mechanic V. Saunamäki using one ot the two old observer MGs assigned for AA protection of the base. Plane and the died pilot were found from the nearby forest some time later by children.
[/quote]

There were no losses among I-153 68 IAP.
Why the found plane necessarily should be shot down on 29-th of February?
For example on February, 13 approximately in the same area it is shot down (AA) I-153 7 IAP.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Apr 2009 19:47

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
There was a pair of Finnish Bulldogs flying there, wonder why the other is not mentioned?
Could not see simply.
And who was the second pilot?
Uutu too about him does not recollect.
As Harri posted:
The first fighter contact was made at 11:45 hours when six Polikarpov I-16 fighters of 7 IAP (Fighter aviation regiment) jumped a Bulldog pair [patrol] of LLv. 26.
The "pair" is mentioned here.
But actually I don't remember to have read about the second plane anyhere else.
At Uuttu combat report there also is no mention about another Finnish planes at the patrol area.
I think he was alone when the attack came.


Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Not even Finnish infantry has AFAIK claimed a plane at that day there. How about Soviet?
It is not surprising. The bullet has got in an oil radiator I-16 (One more argument not for the benefit of Uutu. A radiator from below). The engine has jammed later.
At his combat report Uuttu writes the following :
...sain ammutuksi hyvin tähdätyn sarjan sen rungon alapuolelle etuosaan. Huomasin moottorin tuprahtavan pari kertaa ja mustan savun. Tämän jälkeen heilahti kone sivuttain kahdesti ja painui siivelleen alas. Näin sen jälkeen siitä tulevan vaalean savujuovan...
...I managed to fire a well aimed brust to the fuselage bottom at plane nose. I noticed couple of puffs of black smoke coming from the [I-16, JT]engine. After that the plane swayed sideways two times and fell down wing first. After that I noticed a trail of pale smoke coming from the plane
Seems that Uuttu hit where the Soviet info mentioned the damage being.
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Actually Red Stars 5 mentions Ehrnrooth 13th Jan as the reason and date.
And still it not so.
"The magazine of operations " OABr unequivocally speaks, that Zaitsev 14-th was missing.
And 13-th record about a meeting with FIAT's is. But at 53 DBAP
Not the first time when Soviet dates don't fit to the events.
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Lautamäki shot/shared a SB a day later at 14th Jan-40
?
According to the classical book " Ilmavoimat talvisodassa " - 14-th.
In book Stenman & Keskinen about finish experts (SIH 26. Ilmavoitot. Osa 1), this victory in general is not present.
Lautamäki mentions at his report that after he left the SB-2 "kytemään" (= glowing, slowly burning). After that Finnish AAA shot down the plane (exploded mid-air) down.
I would rate that as shared victory.
SIH 26 mentions the Ehrnrooth "kill" at 13th Jan.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 09 Apr 2009 22:26

About fight on 1-st of December I shall answer in Russian. Sorry. I do not know as to explain it in English.

Я внимательно еще раз рассмотрел известные мне факты. В принципе, у нас есть только слова Уутту против слов Шинкаренко. Не исключено, что Уутту действительно обстрелял Покрышева, но это произошло как минимум в 35-40 километрах от линии фронта. С пробитым маслорадиатором Покрышев вряд ли столько пролетел бы. Версия с обстрелом с земли мне кажется более правдоподобной, но это только мои личные впечатления.
Но в любом случае, самолет Покрышева (И-16 № 1021625) был возвращен в строй. Поэтому в общем причин для спора нет. Подтверждения победе Уутту нет. В лучшем случае он повредил самолет Покрышева.
Думаю, вопрос на этом может быть закрыт?
Juha Tompuri: Not the first time when Soviet dates don't fit to the events.
8O
"The magazine of operations " is filled daily. How there it is possible to mix dates?
Why it is impossible to recognize, what Ehrnrooth was mistaken? Has mixed DB-3 with SB and has shott down nobody.
It is more logical, than to attribute to him lost in the afternoon later the plane...

Juha Tompuri:Lautamäki mentions at his report that after he left the SB-2 "kytemään" (= glowing, slowly burning). After that Finnish AAA shot down the plane (exploded mid-air) down.
I would rate that as shared victory.
SIH 26 mentions the Ehrnrooth "kill" at 13th Jan.
Source of this mistake in RS 5 and SIH 26 - one. He is Dear K.Geust.
Относительно победы Лаутамяки 14 января. Я попробую поискать еще какую-нибудь дополнительную информацию о действиях 35 ЛБАП 14 января. Может что-то и прояснится. Всего в этот день потеряно полком 2 СБ - Зайцев и Бальбухов. Бальбухов сбит зенитной артиллерией над станцией Коски. Взорвался в воздухе.
Звено "бульдогов" атаковало четверку СБ в районе станции Керво (?). Три СБ оторвались на скорости. Что стало с четвертым - не известно. Возможно действительно Лаутамяки + ААА

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 10 Apr 2009 14:41

Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:This aerial victory was originally unwittnessed.
This music will be eternal... :)
Actually not, these kills were not accepted to personal records unless some proves were received from other sources (radio intelligence, land troops, wreck found later for example as late as during the Continuation War etc.).
Slon-76 wrote:
19.12.1939 (page 99/100):
The ground troops observed both crashes and Virta was credited with two aircraft destroyed.
Both planes (I-16) have fallen on the Finnish side of front?
If is not present, how the Finnish soldiers could see their crashes?
I spoke about the Soviet losses 19-th December.
I don't know if planes crashed on the Finnish side but the crashes have been noticed by nearby Finnish troops (at once or later). These kinds of happenings are usually written down to unit's war diary. If no other claims have been reported on that area (this time there were several SBs) the kill was confirmed. This happened on Muolaanjärvi, Karelian Isthmus.
Slon-76 wrote:
20/12/39:
LLv. 24 added two fighters [I-16] [FR-90/SSgt L. Rautakorpi and FR-87/Lt Jaakko Vuorela]
Fight was with fighters 68 IAP. Regiment of losses had no, and claimed 1 D.XXI
Finnish source don't mention the Soviet unit. No Finnish losses for that day. Actually 7 IAP announced it had shot down four Finnish fighters.
Slon-76 wrote:
One Blenheim of LLv.46 was chased by three I-16s [probably from 49 IAP] over Salmi when the rear gunner [Sgt V. Mörsky] managed to shoot down one attacker, the first kill scored by the gunners.
Has probably, really damaged I-16 49 IAP
Probably or really? I think losses or damages either happened or not?
Slon-76 wrote:
23/12/39:
The engagements of the day totalled 21 and during fighter duels further two I-16s of 7 IAP and two of 64 IAP were shot down. Sgt Pentti Tilli accounted for both of the former and Lt Urho Nieminen and 2Lt Heikki Ilveskorpi the latter. On the other hand one Fokker D.XXI [FR-111] was hit [by 1-16 from 25 IAP] and Sgt Tauno Kaarma was injured when he crashed the plane [forced landing].
64 IAP was not . 68 IAP has lost 1 I-16
You wrote:
23.12.39 I-16 4/68 IAP Arhipov POW SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Grigorev KIA SE Viipuri Shot down in air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Zolotarjev MIA SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
This 64 is not a spelling mistake because it is both in the Finnish and English text.
Slon-76 wrote:
The Soviets lost on the Karelian Isthmus three SB bombers of 2 SBAP [one was originally unwitnesses, additionally one SB was damaged] and WO [Viktor] Pyötsiä [Detachment Luukkanen/LLv.24] in FR-110 two Polikarpov I-15bis [I-152] fighters north of Lake Ladoga. [witnessed victories, not confirmation found from Soviet archives]
It is shot down 1 I-15bis. The second is damaged, but restored.
What was this Soviet fighter unit? Like told no records for this has not been found from the Soviet archives.
Slon-76 wrote:
On the last day of the year Sgt Ilmari [actually Eino "Illu"] Juutilainen. member of LLv.24's Detachment Luukkanen and the future top scorer with 94 kills blasted behind Lt Jorma "Joppe" Karhunen's tail a lone I-16 on the northern shore of Lake Ladoga [at Uomaa].
Not losses. I read Lorentz's message on this fight. Juutilainen has missed I-16 in clouds.
This was a witnessed victory. Lt.Col. Lorentz was the Commander of the Flying Regiment 2 and not present in combat. So this victory was officially accepted by Squadron Commander Maj. Magnusson and Lorentz. It would be interesting to read the combat reports of Juutilainen as well as the report of the eye-witness.
Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:You mentioned earlier self that two Soviet fighters (1-16 and I-153) missed during the combat on Ruokolahti - Imatra area. I can't see the I-153 in your list. Actually Finns know three certain cases, so dig your archives for these three [all from 68 IAP ?]:
- I-153 fighter (pilot unknown, KIA) was shot down by Mechanic V. Saunamäki using one ot the two old observer MGs assigned for AA protection of the base. Plane and the died pilot were found from the nearby forest some time later by children.
There were no losses among I-153 68 IAP.
Why the found plane necessarily should be shot down on 29-th of February?
For example on February, 13 approximately in the same area it is shot down (AA) I-153 7 IAP.
As far as I know the plane flew close above the ice airstrip at Ruokolahti and it was shot at almost directly from the side by twin MG. It was seen by several persons that the plane was hit at close range. After shooting plane suddenly jumped up and turned to the direction where it was later found. It could mean the pilot was hit. After the forced landing pilot had managed to climb out from the cabin and was sitting dead under a tall tree either killed by coldness or wounds or both. Plane was not burned and it was believed that the reason for the crash was wounding of the pilot. I don't remember for sure when exactly the place was found.

I think no aerial battles took place on 13.2.1940 close enough to Ruokolahti base. But never say never. We should dig the original files from archives to know what there was found. Do you find any damaged 68 IAP planes for 29.2.1940?

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