Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
User avatar
Harri
Member
Posts: 4230
Joined: 24 Jun 2002 11:46
Location: Suomi - Finland

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 04 Apr 2009 18:17

Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:These figures you showed are far exaggerating because many of these planes were shot down on the Finnish side and the shot down planes could be found from the ground.
No. It so. (I speak only about Winter war).
For example. On January, 17. From 16 planes SB has returned 9, two more have made landing not on the air station, but have been repaired. In fight it is brought down 5 SB. In detail about fight on January, 17 here, but in Russian:
http: // http://www.allaces.ru/p/episode.php? id=1047
I can still more many examples.
Finnish Air Force II lists 9 shot down SB bombers (4x 54 SBAP, 2x 31 SBAP, confirmed from Soviet sources) of the total of 25 planes met, three damaged ones and additionally one unwitnessed case.

54 SBAP claimed it had shot down eleven Fokker D.XXI fighters of the ten LLv. 24 planes that participated in the battle. That is an amazing achievement.
Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:In these cases the evidences for a true victory are rather strong. Finnish researchers have noted that all needed Soviet documents have not you been published for some reason so we can't say anything for sure.
I can. I work with Russian documents, instead of with the literature.
The complain I told about concers official soviet papers. There are still missing information.
Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:You mean air combat on 11.2.1940 north from Lake Ladoga between three Finnish Gladiators from Flying Squadron 26 against (about) fifteen Soviet I-16 fighters from the 49 IAP?
No. I speak about fight 13.02.40. 11.02.40 I-16 have not been shot down. By the way. This fight conducted not 49 IAP, but group of captain Tkachenko.
As far as I have understood this is from the original Soviet sources based on the research of Carl-Fredrik Geust (with Russian collegues). Like I mentioned there is a conflict between the text and the table on page 134.

For 13.2.1940 FiAF II lists three SBs shot down and three unwitnessed SBs shot down (from 39 SBAP). One I-15bis (I-152) of 49 IAP was shot down and there is also another unwitnessed claim. Two Finnish Gladiators were shot down both flown by Danish volunteer pilots Lt Kalmberg (+) and Lt. Ulrich (WIA). 49 IAP claimed also one Fokker D.XXI shot down but that didn't happen.

Unwitnessed claims were not counted to official records (at least to pilot's personal records, but sometimes to the squadron or regiment record) until the plane wreck or the pilot was later found. Also land units could confirm unclear cases.
Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:Accordind to a text in the book Finnish Air Force II 1928 - 1940 (2006) by K. Keskinen, K. Partonen and K. Stenman one I-16 was shot down (page 133/134).
I among those people from which K.Stenmann received the information on the Soviet losses. My surname is on page 5. Data on loss I-16 11.02.40 - are not present.
No, just one Finnish Fokker D.XXI was lost according to this book. Was that loss the fighter of 7 or 25 IAP?

I can see three Russian names there. Welcome to the AHForum.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11545
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 04 Apr 2009 19:08

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: ...that the soviet bombers claimed 12 finnish fighters shot down on that mission, one gunner claiming 3 finnish fighters shot down.
For those acchievements he and another gunner received the highest Soviet award?
And the reality being that no Finnish planes were shot down on that day.
Yes, I know.
16 air brigade has declared in the winter 39/40 41 the shot down fighter, the Finnish data confirm 1-2 of them.
During Winter War two finnish fighters were shot down by Soviet bombers and AFAIK neither of them was downed by 16 SBABr.
20th Feb-40 Gloster Gladiator GL-280 piloted by Lt Paavo Berg near Utti by probably SB-2's of 48 SBAP
2nd March-40 Fokker D.XXI FR-84 piloted by WO Urho Heiskala near Tampere by probably DB-3(s ?) of 7 DBAP

Slon-76 wrote:Please

For December it is declared shot down 11 I-16.
Really in air fights 3 + 1 it is broken because of damages
25/02/40 it is declared shot down 4 R-5
Really damage 3 R-Z, are repaired
In area of 8 armies it is declared shot down 4 I-16.
Really - not...
From 10 planes declared by pilots Fiat's really - 3.
All to write long...
Can any date is interesting?

Regards
Few questions came to my mind:
As you mention the Finnish overclaim at shooting down Soviet fighters being now 3-4 times more than actually happened, could you post the types, dates and places of the Soviet fighters that according you really were shot down?
Do you know the you mentioned 3+1 I-16 dates and places ?
And the 3 Fiat victims you mentioned?
Also, do you happen to know the Soviet losses at 29th Feb-40 at Ruokolahti ?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6325&hilit

Sorry for the long list.


Regards, Juha

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 495
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 04 Apr 2009 20:06

Harri wrote: Finnish Air Force II lists 9 shot down SB bombers (4x 54 SBAP, 2x 31 SBAP, confirmed from Soviet sources) of the total of 25 planes met, three damaged ones and additionally one unwitnessed case.
There were two groups: 6 54 SBAP and 10 31 SBAP
It is shot down in fight five: two 31 SBAP and three 54 SBAP
Three SB 54 SBAP have been damaged: one (emergency landing near Kamenka) was under repair at a factory № 35, the second (emergency landing, airbase Koporje) in workshops in Krasnogvardeisk and the third - in a regiment.
Harri wrote: 54 SBAP claimed it had shot down eleven Fokker D.XXI fighters of the ten LLv. 24 planes that participated in the battle. That is an amazing achievement.

:) It not a record. Look at crews В-17!
Harri wrote: The complain I told about concers official soviet papers. There are still missing information.
It is very "authoritative" source! :)
Seriously. In Russia today Winter war does not cause the big interest :(
Therefore investigate a little...
Harri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:You mean air combat on 11.2.1940 north from Lake Ladoga between three Finnish Gladiators from Flying Squadron 26 against (about) fifteen Soviet I-16 fighters from the 49 IAP?
No. I speak about fight 13.02.40. 11.02.40 I-16 have not been shot down. By the way. This fight conducted not 49 IAP, but group of captain Tkachenko.
As far as I have understood this is from the original Soviet sources based on the research of Carl-Fredrik Geust (with Russian collegues). Like I mentioned there is a conflict between the text and the table on page 134.

The text version is exact not exact. 15 I-16 - it is not possible!
I know Finnish version 6 I-15 and 6 I-16
I-16 49 IAP operated in area Pitkaranta - Lemmeti (26 of 28 starts 11.02.40). This day documents 49 IAP do not speak about fight.
Fight was conducted Group of Tkachenko. At it was only two I-16, all are whole.
The description of fight of group of Tkachenko is not found.
Harri wrote: For 13.2.1940 FiAF II lists three SBs shot down and three unwitnessed SBs shot down (from 39 SBAP). One I-15bis (I-152) of 49 IAP was shot down and there is also another unwitnessed claim. Two Finnish Gladiators were shot down both flown by Danish volunteer pilots Lt Kalmberg (+) and Lt. Ulrich (WIA). 49 IAP claimed also one Fokker D.XXI shot down but that didn't happen.
It too Tkachenko's group
Harri wrote: No, just one Finnish Fokker D.XXI was lost according to this book. Was that loss the fighter of 7 or 25 IAP?
I have not understood, what date of you interests?
Harri wrote: I can see three Russian names there. Welcome to the AHForum.
Thanks! I second of them ;)

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 495
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 04 Apr 2009 20:53

Juha Tompuri wrote: During Winter War two finnish fighters were shot down by Soviet bombers and AFAIK neither of them was downed by 16 SBABr.
20th Feb-40 Gloster Gladiator GL-280 piloted by Lt Paavo Berg near Utti by probably SB-2's of 48 SBAP
2nd March-40 Fokker D.XXI FR-84 piloted by WO Urho Heiskala near Tampere by probably DB-3(s ?) of 7 DBAP


Berg has been shot down in fight with bombers 7/54 SBAP. Has earlier shot down SB from 5/54 SBAP.
48 SBAP Utti did not bomb.
Juha Tompuri wrote: As you mention the Finnish overclaim at shooting down Soviet fighters being now 3-4 times more than actually happened, could you post the types, dates and places of the Soviet fighters that according you really were shot down?


I can. But to me it is necessary for a few time.
Juha Tompuri wrote: Do you know the you mentioned 3+1 I-16 dates and places ?


Shot down - 23.12.39 2 I-16 4/7 IAP (Zolotarev and Grigorjev)+ 1 I-16 4/68 IAP (Kovalkov). All SE Viipuri
Damaged and crash - I-16 2/68 IAP (Arhipov) Damaged in area Muolaanjarvi, crash - airbase Pushkin
Juha Tompuri wrote: And the 3 Fiat victims you mentioned?


29.01.40 - DB-3 53 DBAP, 29.02.40 - SB 57 SBAP, 11.03.40 - DB-3 7 DBAP
Juha Tompuri wrote: Also, do you happen to know the Soviet losses at 29th Feb-40 at Ruokolahti ?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6325&hilit


I have nothing to add.
Two have not returned I-16, I-153 all have returned.
Juha Tompuri wrote: Sorry for the long list.
No problems

Regards,

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11545
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 04 Apr 2009 21:41

Thank You very much Slon.
Have to digest the info from you for a while.

Regards, Juha

SVaaka
Member
Posts: 298
Joined: 23 May 2007 15:50
Location: Finland

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by SVaaka » 05 Apr 2009 11:58

Just to give a intresting addition to this conversation :lol: During and after The Winter War - there was a mount of 30 to 40 000 kg of russian aircraft aluminium delivered to Helsinki to Suomi -foundry. I have no info how many wrecks were delivered there, but I think quite a lot cause mount is huge. Finnish airforces stripped the wrecks out of engines, guns and parts that could be used as spares or in local aircraft manufacturing. Certainly other metals like steel, wood and fabrics were separated before delivery to foundry.
What comes to reliability of sovjet (note not RUSSIAN) documentary, I think there is no doubt that they were more or less fabricated to look good in public and eyes of military - just too keep up the spirit of nation and apperances:) I certainly did not look good that highly priced Red Army and Stalins Eagles get their butts kicked like hell by some minor louse-country and it´s tiny airforces.
It is well known fact in Finland and probably in most countries, that when downed planes are counted one by one when collecting them from terrain just to see what could be used against stroming enamy. These wrecks collected from woods and fields do not disppear to anywhere, not matter what sort of document one writes the opposite side of the frontline. Also that that many, not recorded Sovjet aircraft looses were confirmed during beginning of the Continuation War - when wrecks were found from woods and so.
I understand very well difficulties, both mental and litteral - in understanding the holodna pravda - cold truth - of what happened during The Winter War - at all fronts in Sovjet side of the front. But plain fact is that what ever we did to resist
sovjet attack, how heroic were our soldiers and fighterpilots - we came down the second best anyway. There is no room for illusion. But the fact that is that the picture of these so called Heroes of Sovjet Union is so confused after lots and lots of improved history writing, that even the many real heroes are burried alive under load of decorations not corresponding to the reality. During the War Years this probably served it´s cause - but I think personally - now it would be a right time approve facts as they exist and not to rely to Sovjet realism as art of history writing.
I know that finns made lot and lot of mistakes during The Winter War and later Continuation War, but we have tried to make observations as a nation and understand what happened and why. And probably the greatest misstake what we made was not to arm our army well enough to make Sovjet Union to belive that were well enough prepared to defend our selves.
Well that´s my opinion. We lost The Winter War with honour - but did The Sovjet Union win it with honour?

User avatar
antero59
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 12:41

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 06 Apr 2009 15:08

Finnish pilots were several times listening in their airbases by radio soviet pilots talking about airbattles they've been though finns were not taking part of it. It happened coz soviet pilots wanted to show their commanders that they indeed were fighting and fighting successfully. After seven weeks operating in Karelian Isthmus (june-july 1944) soviet commander were arguing that they have destroyed (groud-attack) and shut down s. 350 "facist aircrafts" thoug finns had total losses about 50 (2/3 destroyed by enemy, rest accidents) and germans lost some 25.

There are too different information about soviet aircrafts shut down by Luftwaffe Kuhlmey unit, one mentioned in wikipedia 126, and anther mentioned e.g by Markku Jokisipilä and many other historicians - 151 aircrafs. I dunno how many did e.g Wehrmacht's 122nd Division + other german units destroyed in june-july 1944 during Battle of Karelian Isthmus, 1944. Any information?

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11545
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Apr 2009 15:43

antero59 wrote:Finnish pilots were several times listening in their airbases by radio soviet pilots talking about airbattles they've been though finns were not taking part of it.
After seven weeks operating in Karelian Isthmus (june-july 1944) soviet commander were arguing that they have destroyed (groud-attack) and shut down s. 350 "facist aircrafts"
What are the sources to these?


Regards, Juha

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11545
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Apr 2009 20:09

Slon-76 wrote:For example at Lautamaki the victory gained together with Tuominen is confirmed only...
Actually Lautamäki earlier shot down/shared a SB-2 (from 10AB?) 14th Jan-40.

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Do you know the you mentioned 3+1 I-16 dates and places ?


Shot down - 23.12.39 2 I-16 4/7 IAP (Zolotarev and Grigorjev)+ 1 I-16 4/68 IAP (Kovalkov). All SE Viipuri
Damaged and crash - I-16 2/68 IAP (Arhipov) Damaged in area Muolaanjarvi, crash - airbase Pushkin
1st Dec-39
SSerg Toivo Uuttu flying Bristol Bulldog ,claimed a I-16 damaged.
Later from Soviet memoirs it was found out that the plane, from 7 IAP, was shot down.

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: And the 3 Fiat victims you mentioned?


29.01.40 - DB-3 53 DBAP, 29.02.40 - SB 57 SBAP, 11.03.40 - DB-3 7 DBAP
13th Jan-40 Capt O. Ehrnrooth shot down a SB-2 from 35 LBAP

Harri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:
Harri wrote:You mean air combat on 11.2.1940 north from Lake Ladoga between three Finnish Gladiators from Flying Squadron 26 against (about) fifteen Soviet I-16 fighters from the 49 IAP?
No. I speak about fight 13.02.40. 11.02.40 I-16 have not been shot down. By the way. This fight conducted not 49 IAP, but group of captain Tkachenko.
As far as I have understood this is from the original Soviet sources based on the research of Carl-Fredrik Geust (with Russian collegues). Like I mentioned there is a conflict between the text and the table on page 134.
Slon-76 wrote:The text version is exact not exact. 15 I-16 - it is not possible!
I know Finnish version 6 I-15 and 6 I-16
I-16 49 IAP operated in area Pitkaranta - Lemmeti (26 of 28 starts 11.02.40). This day documents 49 IAP do not speak about fight.
Fight was conducted Group of Tkachenko. At it was only two I-16, all are whole.
The description of fight of group of Tkachenko is not found.
Ltn Kivinen combat report mentions 9 1-15 and 1 I-16 and later 9 SB-2 there. (also later an unclear mention of 20? I-15 and 1 I-16)

Regards, Juha

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 495
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 17:14

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Actually Lautamäki earlier shot down/shared a SB-2 (from 10AB?) 14th Jan-40.


Probably. Has really been lost SB 35 LBAP.
However, 80 % that it not Lautamaki but AA.
I can not explain more in detail. The knowledge of language does not allow.

Juha Tompuri wrote: 1st Dec-39
SSerg Toivo Uuttu flying Bristol Bulldog ,claimed a I-16 damaged.
Later from Soviet memoirs it was found out that the plane, from 7 IAP, was shot down.


100% overclaim. I-16 7 IAP (P.I. Pokryshev) has been damaged AA above a front line. Landing and has been repaired. Uuttu has no to it of the attitude.
Juha Tompuri wrote: 13th Jan-40 Capt O. Ehrnrooth shot down a SB-2 from 35 LBAP
Sorry, but not. 13th Jan-40 Capt O. Ehrnrooth attacked, but has not shot down, DB-3 53 DBAP.

13 января 1940 г.

35 ЛБАП двумя эскадрильями (18 СБ) бомбил ж.д. узел Рихимяки. Еще три эскадрильи нанесли удары по ж.д. узлам Сало, Фридриксберг и Хаменлинна. Пара СБ сбросила бомбы на зенитную батарею на о. Руссаре. Еще один СБ, потеряв свою группу, сбросил бомбы на ст. Кютяя. Во всех случаях, исключая удар по Кютяя, экипажи наблюдали поражение целей, в Хаменлинне был отмечен пожар.
53 ДБАП совершил два налета. 13 ДБ-3 бомбили ж.д. узел Тампере, вызвав в городе многочисленные пожары. Над целью бомбардировщики были атакованы «белым монопланом с убирающимся шасси», который был сбит стрелком-радистом Драбецким. Вероятно, это была первая встреча с истребителями Фиат G.50, пара которых поступила в Финляндию в декабре. Фиаты пока находились в распоряжении испытательного звена авиазаводе в Тампере (KoeLentue – KoeL). Истребители несли итальянский «песчаный» камуфляж, который в горячке боя вполне могли принять за белый.
Второй налет был произведен на ж.д. узел Лахти. 12 ДБ-3 с высоты 3700 м сбросили на цель 94 ФАБ-100 и 25 ЗАБ-50. По докладу пилотов цель была поражена. Еще один ДБ-3 сбросил бомбы на ж.д. узел Карис. Эту же цель атаковали с пикирования 48 И-153 38 ИАП.


[

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 495
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 17:30

Losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters. As well as promised.



23.12.39 I-16 4/68 IAP Arhipov POW SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Grigorev KIA SE Viipuri Shot down in air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Zolotarjev MIA SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
27.12.39 I-15bis AG Tkachenko Lysenko Wound. Suoja:rvi Shot down in air combat
01.02.40 I-16 2/7 IAP Kalinin KIA Huumola Shot down in air combat
02.02.40 I-16 1/149 IAP Kiselev MIA 20 km S Korija MIA. After air combat
02.02.40 I-153 3/38 IAP Bedarev POW Near Hanko Shot down in air combat
13.02.40 I-15bis AG Tkachenko Kochmala KIA Va:rtsila: Shot down in air combat
19.02.40 I-153 2/149 IAP Yentcsh MIA NW Viipuri MIA. After air combat
19.02.40 I-153 2/149 IAP Osipov MIA NW Viipuri MIA. After air combat
27.02.40 I-15bis 5/149 IAP Ivanov Wound. Kotka Crash between Gogland and Lavensaari after air combat
29.02.40 I-16 68 IAP Volohov MIA Ruokolahti MIA. After air combat
02.03.40 I-153 11 OIAE Ivanov KIA Turku Shot down in air combat
05.03.40 I-153 68 IAP Semin KIA A:yura:pa:a: Shot down in air combat
07.03.40 I-153 148 IAP Zaichikov ? Rieksja:rvi Shot down in air combat

User avatar
antero59
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: 03 Apr 2009 12:41

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by antero59 » 08 Apr 2009 18:07

Discussing about Soviet aircraft losses is mostly waste of time. Soviet Union tend to decrease their own losses, overcalculate the strenght of their enemy forces and especially enemy losses. That's the way things are. There are also tradition to hide special losses and special battles. That's why the most important thing is to find things they don't want to talk than those they really like to tell. Winter War was long time a tabu in Soviet Union, they didn't even called it as a war. Nowadays their however confirmed that at least 130 000 men were lost (killed, missing) in that war. Long time they were arguing that only about 50 000 soldiers lost their lives in Winter War.

Winter War could be in fact the most bloodies war event of WW2 before Operation Barbarossa (killed or missed soldiers slightly more than in Battle of France, if statistics by Wikipedia are correct). There is indeed natural reason why official Soviet Union didn't want to talk much about Winter War.

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1951
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Mangrove » 08 Apr 2009 18:35

antero59 wrote:Discussing about Soviet aircraft losses is mostly waste of time. Soviet Union tend to decrease their own losses, overcalculate the strenght of their enemy forces and especially enemy losses. That's the way things are.
You will have to know the difference between official and "official" losses. Losses verified by the archive should be the final word since what's the point waging war if you lie about the losses to your superiors? If you claim you don't have any losses and the real situation is the unit has three working aeroplanes it's clear the factory ain't sending you more planes!

Propaganda losses are usually rounded downwards for obvious reasons.

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 495
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 18:38

antero59 wrote:Discussing about Soviet aircraft losses is mostly waste of time. Soviet Union tend to decrease their own losses, overcalculate the strenght of their enemy forces and especially enemy losses. ...Winter War was long time a tabu in Soviet Union, they didn't even called it as a war. Nowadays their however confirmed that at least 130 000 men were lost (killed, missing) in that war. Long time they were arguing that only about 50 000 soldiers lost their lives in Winter War.
I want to ask to you a question.
Whence it is known about 130000 victims?
I receive the information from the same source - the Russian State Military archive. But you consider, that my information which is probably not adequate to your representations about Winter war - is forged, and what suits you - is not.
I done not interested with myths. Neither Soviet, nor Finnish. It is interesting to me, as was in realities.

User avatar
Slon-76
Member
Posts: 495
Joined: 02 Sep 2008 16:56
Location: Moscow

Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 08 Apr 2009 19:08

Dear SVaaka!

I understand, that you are proud of the Finnish pilots. I too concern to them with the big respect. They have made, probably, more than could.
However, it is impossible to jump above a head. The Finnish pilots was too little.
The Soviet Air Forces have executed more than 106000 flight during Winter war. The Air Forces of Finland - 5500. (+600 F19). Many Soviet pilots did not see the Finnish planes never. Therefore your words about "hell" in air is some exaggeration. Even under the Finnish data, AA has brought down more, than fighters. And the Soviet archival documents confirm it.
You can name an example when the Finnish aircrafts has reflected a strike of the Soviet aircrafts? I - cannot.

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”