Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

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Slon-76
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 03 Aug 2009 08:02

Juha wrote:
So You allocate these two SBs from 54 SBAP to Puhakka, Keskinen and Stenman allocated them to Rimminen (at 11.35 at Noskua / Antrea) and to Paronen (at 11.50 at Kiviniemi).
No. Puhakka has brought down one and has damaged the second bomber. It has just finished Rimminen.
Paronen attacked a bomber of lieutenant Butman, but and could not finish it though long pursued. Butman sat in the air station without the chassis. The gunner - radio operator was wounded. The plane have repaired.

Have you ever thought to try to get your work published here in Finland? Or part of it as an article in a scientific journal or alike? For ex. Sotahistoriallinen Vuosikirja (Militaryhistorical Yearbook) contains sometimes articles wrote by Russian researchers. IMHO your “article” on 17.1.40 is very good.
I do not know, that for this purpose it is necessary to do.

If you would be so kind and answer an extra question, on 15.1.40 vääpeli Siltavuori from Koelentue flying FR-91 claimed a SB over Kangasala, a bit east of Tampere. He reported that after his guns malfunctioned in severe cold he smashed the rudder of the SB with his propeller and the bomber crashed into Vesilahti. Siltamäki was himself badly injured during the attack but managed to make successful emergency landing on the ice of Lake Pyhäjärvi. There seems to be no corresponding Soviet bomber loss. Have you seen anything on Soviet reports which would thrown light on this incidence?
Has been lost SB lieutenant Morozov from 35 SBAP Special air brigades
You probably do not have book RED Stars №5? Very much I recommend. There losses in WW of the Air Forces of the Baltic fleet and Special air brigades are given. Though there there are some discrepancies, work very thorough.

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Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha » 03 Aug 2009 11:10

Thanks a lot again Slon / Oleg !!!
I greatly appreciate the clarifications. Thanks!

I do have Red Star No 5 but I have not had time to read it through, I have read only some parts of it. In text they don’t identify the Siltavuori’s victim. Yesterday I checked also the Table 9 which gives the losses of VVVS KBF but didn’t notice that there is also the Table 10 which gives the losses of OAG. Stupid me. Thanks for you I now noticed, yes the Table 10 identifies Siltavuori’s victim.

On the Sotahistoriallinen Vuosikirja (Militaryhistorical Yearbook), checked that its right name is Sotahistoriallinen Aikakauskirja (Journal of Military History). First of all, they don’t pay for the articles but MIGHT give a grant to the writer. Recommended length of the article is ”10–30 A4 sheets (20 000–60 000 characters, including spaces).” Problem is of course the translation from Russian to Finnish, I have not asked from the edition board, how they have handled that. If you are interested in, I can make preliminary inquiries, I’m a member of the society, and if they show interest, it might take time, it is summer holiday time, I will send the contact info of Journal of Military History staff to you so that you can negotiate with them directly. On this subject it might be better to use the Private Message option of this site from this on.

Thankfully
Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Aug 2009 22:41

Juha wrote:Hello Juha
Quote:"If one can see the enemy plane making a forced landing, but the plane staying more or less OK, then the real claim should be damaged, not a "kill"."

IMHO that is sometimes a tall order, because even the technical teams which evaluated the crashed planes were not always able to rate them correctly.
Perhaps not a tall order, but a safe bet:
Unless one can not actually see the enemy plane being destroyed, then everything is speculative.
Juha wrote:On other subject, what is your oppinion on Bruun's LLv 26 book? I have seen only the original version, printed by ink bubble printer at the old Sota-arkisto, and that looked very promising. Is it worth of the price?
Depends on the price, but in general I would rate the book very usefull.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha » 05 Aug 2009 18:35

Hello Juha
Quote:"Depends on the price, but in general I would rate the book very usefull."

Thanks for the info.

Toinen Juha

Esa K
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Esa K » 03 Nov 2009 12:33

Hi
on 08 Apr 2009 18:30 Slon-76 wrote:07.03.40 I-153 148 IAP Zaichikov ? Rieksja:rvi Shot down in air combat
Looks like the wreck of this plane recently have been found somwhere near Viborg, a link, unfortunately only in Finnish:

http://www.ipmsfinland.org/index.php?op ... Itemid=114


Best regards

Esa K

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Mangrove » 03 Nov 2009 14:35

Esa K wrote: Looks like the wreck of this plane recently have been found somwhere near Viborg, a link, unfortunately only in Finnish:
http://www.vyborg-press.ru/index.php?op ... bsb_midx=1

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Marcus
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Marcus » 25 Dec 2014 10:40

"Bumping" an old interesting thread.

/Marcus

durb
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by durb » 26 Dec 2014 13:50

From the book Lentäjän näkökulma II (Pilot´s point of view) by Jukka Raunio I found these Finnish confirmed claims of Winter War by Bulldog pilots of Lentolaivue (LLv) 26:

Bristol Bulldog Mk. IV A type is credited with 6 confirmed air victories at the service of Lelv 26 during Winter War. (Raunio 1993, p. 44)

But "Håkans Aviation Page" is more critical and states of these " six confirmed" (?) the following:

01/12/39 I-16 Probable Ylikersantti Toivo Uuttu Bulldog BU-64 SE Muolaanjärvi LLv 26
23/12/39 SB Damaged Lentomestari Lennart Mildh Bulldog BU-74 Käkisalmi LLv 26
23/12/39 SB Destroyed Luutnantti Pentti Tevä Bulldog BU-68 Ladoga LLv 26
27/12/39 I-16 Damaged Kersantti Valio Porvari Bulldog BU-68 Käkisalmi LLv 26
14/01/40 SB Shared destroyed Lentomestari Lauri Lautamäki Bulldog BU-72 Perniö 1/LLv 26

Only 5 claims represented, of this only one and share really confirmed (SB´s on 23.12 and 14.1.1940). Uuttu´s claim on 1.12.1939 not confirmed, but only probable. Two other claims (SB on 23.12.1939 and 27.12.1939) not destroyed planes, only damaged. Where is the sixth claim?
See more details: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/bulldog_finland.htm

What is more near of "official" truth? 6 confirmed air victories or 1½ confirmed, 1 probable and 2 damaged for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by mirekw » 02 Jan 2015 19:17

01/12/39 I-16 Probable Ylikersantti Toivo Uuttu Bulldog BU-64 SE Muolaanjärvi LLv 26

It was an overclaime, he had never shot down any I-16. Instead he was directly shto down by 3 I-16 typ 10 of 4./7. IAP commanded by sen. lejt. Schynkarienko (he was commander of 4./7. IAP and got a credit of this victory, done 46 combat sorties during Winter War, he got HSU too). He attacked together with Didienko and Grigoryev and in a few seconds shot down the separate Bulldog. Soviet losses during this flight had not correspondence with any action of Finnish fighters.

So the next one less victory in Bulldogs short list.

mw

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 02 Jan 2015 20:07

mirekw wrote:01/12/39 I-16 Probable Ylikersantti Toivo Uuttu Bulldog BU-64 SE Muolaanjärvi LLv 26

It was an overclaime, he had never shot down any I-16.
Uuttu shot down the future Soviet ace Petr Pokryshev:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=152938

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durb
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by durb » 03 Jan 2015 01:28

I guess that the Uuttu claim is something on which there will no be 100 % agreement. Did he get hits on Pokryshev´s plane which force-landed due to combat damage or did Pokryshev force-land because of simple engine failure (not related to combat?) - I just do not know - this will remain open question. In the Finnish history writing Uuttu´s claim is usually accepted without questioning as the first Finnish air victory.

Uuttu may have damaged Pokryshev´s plane but was Pokryshevs´s I-16 written off due to forced landing? This brings us to the problems of defining air victory as a "kill" - is destroyed or written off enemy plane only definition for air victory? A problem similar which German fighter pilots faced during Battle of Britain - they did down lots of Hurricanes and Spitfires, but very many of these were repaired and put again in action as well as the pilots who flew with them. This explains partly the big difference between German confirmed claims and destroyed RAF planes during BoB. One can make air victory claim in good faith and with good reason - it is a legitimate claim, but it does not always mean the same as the destruction of enemy plane or damaging it beyond repair.

Anyway accepting that Uuttu made his claim in good faith, there is still difference in defining the 5 or 6 claims of Finnish Bulldog pilots during the war. Claims of damaged planes can not be considered air victory claims. Uuttu´s claim 30.11.1939 + Tevä´s confirmed air victory on 23.12.1940 + Lautamäki´s "shared" with AA on 14.1.1940 make 3 air victories at most. However, in some Finnish aviation history books Bulldog pilots are credited with 6 air victories, which seems to be incorrect.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Jan 2015 13:15

durb wrote:I guess that the Uuttu claim is something on which there will no be 100 % agreement.
Uuttu himself claimed to have hit the enemy plane, and that seems to have happened.
durb wrote:Did he get hits on Pokryshev´s plane which force-landed due to combat damage or did Pokryshev force-land because of simple engine failure (not related to combat?) - I just do not know
Pokryshev forcelanded because of enemy damage.
Damage to the place at his plane where Uuttu at his combat report mentions to have hit.
durb wrote:Uuttu may have damaged Pokryshev´s plane but was Pokryshevs´s I-16 written off due to forced landing?
According to Slon the plane was not written off.
durb wrote: This brings us to the problems of defining air victory as a "kill" - is destroyed or written off enemy plane only definition for air victory?
I must say that I don't know are there any international standards to it, but here an older post of mine about the issue:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1880483

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by mirekw » 03 Jan 2015 18:21

A problem with Uuttu's vitory and victor - some not corresponding data?

According C-F Geust (RS 7, p. 110, 324) the victor over him was Shinkarienko of 4./7. IAP not Pokryshev. If right remeber Oleg Kisielev (Slon-76) also in his monography about I-16 in Winter War in Russia has given the same victor and longer story, Carl has done it very shortly. Kisielev has given even combat report of this fight, If right remebr? Maybe he (Slon-76) support as with this details?

The reasons of lossing 4 I-16s (of 15 from 4./7. IAP taking part in this mission), were not realated to any action of 2 Bulldogs, one combat loss was realated to ground fire (Pokryshev). 1 Bulldog was very fast shot down, no any real long air combat. It was sudden attack from behind.

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mw

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by mirekw » 03 Jan 2015 18:35

Confirmed, it was fully described in Oleg Kisielev's monography about I-16 in Wintr War in: Istoria Avjacji no 32, p. 6. The same people. There is a Russian combat report done by Shynkarienko. It was the 1-st Soviet claimed air victory in Winter War too.

No any comabt between Uuttu and Pokryshev.

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mw

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Jan 2015 19:10

mirekw wrote:A problem with Uuttu's vitory and victor - some not corresponding data?
AFAIK everything matches up quite nicely when comparing the data from both sides.
Not only from the other.
mirekw wrote:According C-F Geust (RS 7, p. 110, 324) the victor over him was Shinkarienko of 4./7. IAP not Pokryshev. If right remeber Oleg Kisielev (Slon-76) also in his monography about I-16 in Winter War in Russia has given the same victor and longer story, Carl has done it very shortly. Kisielev has given even combat report of this fight, If right remebr? Maybe he (Slon-76) support as with this details?
I haven't read anywhere that Pokryshev had managed/claimed to shoot down Uuttu.
mirekw wrote:The reasons of lossing 4 I-16s (of 15 from 4./7. IAP taking part in this mission), were not realated to any action of 2 Bulldogs, one combat loss was realated to ground fire (Pokryshev). 1 Bulldog was very fast shot down, no any real long air combat. It was sudden attack from behind.
That is if relying on the info from just one side.

Once more:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=152938

Regards, Juha

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