Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
I remember to have read that there were some Finnish ground observers who had seen smoking enemy fighter going down and that this was later identified as one of the I-16´s attacking Uuttu´s Bulldog. The air victories confirmed by Finnish HQ without witnesses are all open to some speculation unless there is written archive info where can be found the good reasons to confirm the air victory like found and identified wreck near the location of reported air combat. I´m quite sure that there is a file regarding Uuttu´s air combat on 1.12.1939 and perhaps there can be found the reasons why it was decided to consider Uuttu´s combat as the very first Finnish air victory. But just to remember - FInnish HQ could make errors like any other human organisation when confirming air victories. No one is perfect.
But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?
But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
Uuttu's victory was not confirmed by the Finnish Air Force as of January 1941 (SPK 758). The work records 3 Bulldog victories during the Winter War, two of which were marked as "uncertain".durb wrote: But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
As earlier:mirekw wrote:1. The problem is how now we define a: victory or shot down or claim? What it does means for us? What kind of damage define of such victory, only total 100 % destruction?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1919073Juha wrote:I must say that I don't know are there any international standards to it, but here an older post of mine about the issue:durb wrote: This brings us to the problems of defining air victory as a "kill" - is destroyed or written off enemy plane only definition for air victory?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1880483
Me neither, but did he write the truth, the whole thruth and nothing but the truth?mirekw wrote:2. Next is true /untrue data/reports vs. deliberate lie/s
I do not belive (I have not seen any special reason for lie). that Shynkarieno raports is a deliberatly lie.
My opinion that that can't be verified just by his/Soviet report(s)
Did'n't also Uuttu?mirekw wrote:He wrote what he presonaly saw
According to one sided info, yesmirekw wrote:when attack was done by his zvieno (3 I-16) no other zvieno/ did particpiate in this sudden attack. Russian had attacked first on Finnnish plane from above and behind. No special dogfight. There were only 3 Soviets pilots who did participate in this battle
And what if something unpleasant happened during the combat?mirekw wrote: if there were more all would be mentioned by the name, it were counted in their battle history - for rewards (medals, money etc.).
According to one sided info, yesmirekw wrote:Basic tactical Soviet air unit was zveino - 3 planes, all participiants in this attack are known, there are not among them Pokryshev. Shynkarieno had mentionend all bothers in arms from this combat.
A-ha... you accept that uuttu saw black smoke coming from one of the attackers. That happening after Uuttu had shot one of the attackers? To the lower part of the nose? And after that pale smoketrail coming from the I-16?mirekw wrote:Black smoke from I-16 engine only menas that pilot added gas (accelerated), pushed the throttles.
I also believe in Uuttu, and I also believe that the most detailed picture of the events can be found out by comparing all the info about the events.mirekw wrote:I do not belive too, that Uuttu had lied, he in a few seconds observed some very fast pictures and written what he had written. The interpretation of his report it is a different case.
Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
This discution is very nice but it is going to be creasy!
Next, we could never get the 100 % true, or even 167 % of true , but we could be more ol less near the true (about 70-85%)
To Juha
There are two reports and nothing more at this moment. We all know much more about this case now then real participants known about it XI 1939 and later, up tu the end of WW II.
Frankly, I think that we all get to the border of the near true (70-85 % of it), and we can not get futher. Nothing interesting will surface anymore to this case, which could us to push forward the border of true behind the "limits of 70-85 %".
Now we can only speculate about this case. Some people love it, but for me it is empty talking, I like to have hard evidences/proofs, which now are simply lacking.
Regards,
mw
Next, we could never get the 100 % true, or even 167 % of true , but we could be more ol less near the true (about 70-85%)
To Juha
In the past history there are no 100 % true, it is only more or less probably true (interpretation, asumption), one man can estimate the true, and has his/her own attitiude or vision. It could be good if it is based on solid common sense, other way it is pure madness."Me neither, but did he write the truth, the whole thruth and nothing but the truth?
My opinion that that can't be verified just by his/Soviet report(s)"
There are two reports and nothing more at this moment. We all know much more about this case now then real participants known about it XI 1939 and later, up tu the end of WW II.
Frankly, I think that we all get to the border of the near true (70-85 % of it), and we can not get futher. Nothing interesting will surface anymore to this case, which could us to push forward the border of true behind the "limits of 70-85 %".
Now we can only speculate about this case. Some people love it, but for me it is empty talking, I like to have hard evidences/proofs, which now are simply lacking.
Regards,
mw
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
That is the point - Uuttu´s air victory was not officially confirmed by Finnish Air Force in wartime! Leaves it to "probable" territory for all times in my humble opinion.Mangrove wrote:Uuttu's victory was not confirmed by the Finnish Air Force as of January 1941 (SPK 758). The work records 3 Bulldog victories during the Winter War, two of which were marked as "uncertain".durb wrote: But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?
It is interesting that looking the actual records we may find that later history writing is "confirming" or claiming something that is not so sure in original wartime records. For example crediting Bulldog pilots with six air victories seems to be something made up by later history writers and not been in accordance with the official original Finnish Air Force records.
Now going to more wide spectre, although this may have been answered already in this forum. How were confirmed air victory claims distributed between LLv 24, Llv 26, Koelentue, F 19 and other units during Winter War according to original FAF records? I´m also puzzled with the three "official numbers" - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory info as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history). What to believe when one has three different "officially confirmed" figures on the same thing??
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
In addition to the Uuttu battle report and Shinkarenko report pieces here, there exists also the info about Pokryshev plane damage and that there were quite many more I-16 planes up there than the that are here being mentioned by Shinkarenko.mirekw wrote:There are two reports and nothing more at this moment.
Also thetre exists a claim that Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire.
Here?

http://www.livelib.ru/book/1000458456
Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
I suggest that the Uuttu discussion can be continued here in its very own thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=152938
For me it has been enough to know that Bulldog pilots of Llv 26 were offcially credited with one confirmed and two unconfirmed air victories by the Finnish Air Force during Winter War - makes just wonder why in some book they have been credited with 6 air victories? Whatever interpretation, I consider only the officially confirmed air victories as officially confirmed air victories, rest are more or less speculative "probables".
Now my stupid question regarding the officially total confirmed Finnish Air Force air combat victories . How were confirmed air victory claims divided between LLv 24, Llv 26, Koelentue, F 19 and other units during Winter War according to original FAF records? What is the base of confirmed air victory count - 195, 207 or 218?
I´m confused with the three "official numbers" of Finnish air victories of Winter War - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory account as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history).
What to believe when one has three different "officially confirmed" figures on the same thing?
For me it has been enough to know that Bulldog pilots of Llv 26 were offcially credited with one confirmed and two unconfirmed air victories by the Finnish Air Force during Winter War - makes just wonder why in some book they have been credited with 6 air victories? Whatever interpretation, I consider only the officially confirmed air victories as officially confirmed air victories, rest are more or less speculative "probables".
Now my stupid question regarding the officially total confirmed Finnish Air Force air combat victories . How were confirmed air victory claims divided between LLv 24, Llv 26, Koelentue, F 19 and other units during Winter War according to original FAF records? What is the base of confirmed air victory count - 195, 207 or 218?
I´m confused with the three "official numbers" of Finnish air victories of Winter War - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory account as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history).
What to believe when one has three different "officially confirmed" figures on the same thing?
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
I.G. Inoziemcev, Pod krylom Leningrad, it is very old Soviet book (1968 or so ?), I had read it many years ago. There are for sure a photo of Shynkarinko, well know, and behind is his I-16 typ 10. He used as a sources official documents from military archives, but it is popular book.
This what is also interesting beside destroyed FAF's planes are planes "only" damages. I have not met yet with detail list of damages planes, which were done by combat, non combat reasons, and by each type? The number of destroyed planes has quite similar number of damaged victims of war - minimum 51 severly damaged. It is interesing how many of them were victims of air comabts?
Regards
mw
This is a good point: 195, 207 or "only" 218 "confirmed" victory? If right rember the figure 195 concern all fighter claims and 207 concern fighters plus bombers and observer planes air success. The figure 218, I do not know where it has come from? Intersting?I´m confused with the three "official numbers" of Finnish air victories of Winter War - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory account as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history).
This what is also interesting beside destroyed FAF's planes are planes "only" damages. I have not met yet with detail list of damages planes, which were done by combat, non combat reasons, and by each type? The number of destroyed planes has quite similar number of damaged victims of war - minimum 51 severly damaged. It is interesing how many of them were victims of air comabts?
Regards
mw
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
1.Inozemtsev's book is about 1941-1945 and have no information about Winter War and problems of Mr. Pokryshev.Juha Tompuri wrote:.
Also thetre exists a claim that Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire.
Here?
http://www.livelib.ru/book/1000458456
Regards, Juha
2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
The 1989 book Ilmavoimat talvisodassa has a detailed list of victories, losses and damaged planes. Here is a summary of them:mirekw wrote: This is a good point: 195, 207 or "only" 218 "confirmed" victory? If right rember the figure 195 concern all fighter claims and 207 concern fighters plus bombers and observer planes air success. The figure 218, I do not know where it has come from? Intersting?
This what is also interesting beside destroyed FAF's planes are planes "only" damages. I have not met yet with detail list of damages planes, which were done by combat, non combat reasons, and by each type? The number of destroyed planes has quite similar number of damaged victims of war - minimum 51 severly damaged. It is interesing how many of them were victims of air comabts?
Victories: 190 (including 6 Bulldog and 5 Blenheim victories)
Losses: 76 (38 in air combat)
Damages: 51 (only about 10 due to enemy action, mainly landing accidents)
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
Thanks, a wrong guess then...Swing wrote:1.Inozemtsev's book is about 1941-1945 and have no information about Winter War and problems of Mr. Pokryshev.
This one?Swing earlier wrote:It is not a monography, it is a number of articles of Slon-76 in "Istoria Avjacji" (History of Aviation) magazine, 2005
http://coollib.com/b/239142/read
Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
Hmmm...Pokrtshev again.Swing wrote:2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.
Hmmm... Red Stars 7 places those events to 20.12.1939, one exeption being that no Finnish planes were shot down that day (neither two days earlier)
20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
Mentioned as confirmed here:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1622862
Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
From "Istoria Avjacji" (History of Aviation) magazine, 2005 ? an online translation:Juha Tompuri wrote:Hmmm...Pokrtshev again.Swing wrote:2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.
Hmmm... Red Stars 7 places those events to 20.12.1939, one exeption being that no Finnish planes were shot down that day (neither two days earlier)
20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
http://coollib.com/b/239142/readthe third enemy fighter was Senior Lieutenant Pokryšev and Lieutenant Grigoriev. Was closer to "Fokkeru" Grigoriev gave several queues, but it suddenly ran out of ammo. While continuing to pursue the enemy, Pokryšev caught up with the Finnish fighter over Vijpuri and summed it up. But, wanting to make sure enemy aircraft kills, circled around the falling victim to an altitude of 800 m. at this point in his 16-shot and a flak, and the plane was shot down again Pokryševa. Dragging the burning front line fighter, Pokryšev put his 16-and the forest. Although the aircraft is totally burned out, the pilot managed to jump out of a perfectly safe.
Again Pokryshev mentioned to have been shot down by AA-fire ?
Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
According to biography of Pokryshev by E. Baulin (1968), Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire twice. First time - on 1.12.39 and second time on 18.12.39. Finnish fighters did not shot down Pokryshev as they were before it completely destroyed or fled the battlefield
According to Kiselev's article in "Istoria aviaciji" Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire on 20.12.1939
According to Wikipedia Pokryshev was shot down on 18.12.1939 (dogfight, reason is unknown)

According to Kiselev's article in "Istoria aviaciji" Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire on 20.12.1939
According to Wikipedia Pokryshev was shot down on 18.12.1939 (dogfight, reason is unknown)
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)
Hi,
Thanks.
Regards, Juha
Thanks.
Do you know is there any relevant "new" info there about the two cases?Swing wrote:According to biography of Pokryshev by E. Baulin (1968), Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire twice. First time - on 1.12.39 and second time on 18.12.39.
Sure someone at the staff must have wondered about the number of planes Finns had compared to the claims.Swing wrote:Finnish fighters did not shot down Pokryshev as they were before it completely destroyed or fled the battlefield![]()
Regards, Juha