Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

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durb
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by durb » 05 Jan 2015 22:14

I remember to have read that there were some Finnish ground observers who had seen smoking enemy fighter going down and that this was later identified as one of the I-16´s attacking Uuttu´s Bulldog. The air victories confirmed by Finnish HQ without witnesses are all open to some speculation unless there is written archive info where can be found the good reasons to confirm the air victory like found and identified wreck near the location of reported air combat. I´m quite sure that there is a file regarding Uuttu´s air combat on 1.12.1939 and perhaps there can be found the reasons why it was decided to consider Uuttu´s combat as the very first Finnish air victory. But just to remember - FInnish HQ could make errors like any other human organisation when confirming air victories. No one is perfect.

But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Mangrove » 06 Jan 2015 09:57

durb wrote: But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?
Uuttu's victory was not confirmed by the Finnish Air Force as of January 1941 (SPK 758). The work records 3 Bulldog victories during the Winter War, two of which were marked as "uncertain".

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Jan 2015 18:41

mirekw wrote:1. The problem is how now we define a: victory or shot down or claim? What it does means for us? What kind of damage define of such victory, only total 100 % destruction?
As earlier:
Juha wrote:
durb wrote: This brings us to the problems of defining air victory as a "kill" - is destroyed or written off enemy plane only definition for air victory?
I must say that I don't know are there any international standards to it, but here an older post of mine about the issue:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1880483
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1919073
mirekw wrote:2. Next is true /untrue data/reports vs. deliberate lie/s

I do not belive (I have not seen any special reason for lie). that Shynkarieno raports is a deliberatly lie.
Me neither, but did he write the truth, the whole thruth and nothing but the truth?
My opinion that that can't be verified just by his/Soviet report(s)
mirekw wrote:He wrote what he presonaly saw
Did'n't also Uuttu?
mirekw wrote:when attack was done by his zvieno (3 I-16) no other zvieno/ did particpiate in this sudden attack. Russian had attacked first on Finnnish plane from above and behind. No special dogfight. There were only 3 Soviets pilots who did participate in this battle
According to one sided info, yes
mirekw wrote: if there were more all would be mentioned by the name, it were counted in their battle history - for rewards (medals, money etc.).
And what if something unpleasant happened during the combat?
mirekw wrote:Basic tactical Soviet air unit was zveino - 3 planes, all participiants in this attack are known, there are not among them Pokryshev. Shynkarieno had mentionend all bothers in arms from this combat.
According to one sided info, yes
mirekw wrote:Black smoke from I-16 engine only menas that pilot added gas (accelerated), pushed the throttles.
A-ha... you accept that uuttu saw black smoke coming from one of the attackers. That happening after Uuttu had shot one of the attackers? To the lower part of the nose? And after that pale smoketrail coming from the I-16?
mirekw wrote:I do not belive too, that Uuttu had lied, he in a few seconds observed some very fast pictures and written what he had written. The interpretation of his report it is a different case.
I also believe in Uuttu, and I also believe that the most detailed picture of the events can be found out by comparing all the info about the events.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by mirekw » 06 Jan 2015 19:36

This discution is very nice but it is going to be creasy!

Next, we could never get the 100 % true, or even 167 % of true , but we could be more ol less near the true (about 70-85%)

To Juha
"Me neither, but did he write the truth, the whole thruth and nothing but the truth?
My opinion that that can't be verified just by his/Soviet report(s)"
In the past history there are no 100 % true, it is only more or less probably true (interpretation, asumption), one man can estimate the true, and has his/her own attitiude or vision. It could be good if it is based on solid common sense, other way it is pure madness.

There are two reports and nothing more at this moment. We all know much more about this case now then real participants known about it XI 1939 and later, up tu the end of WW II.

Frankly, I think that we all get to the border of the near true (70-85 % of it), and we can not get futher. Nothing interesting will surface anymore to this case, which could us to push forward the border of true behind the "limits of 70-85 %".

Now we can only speculate about this case. Some people love it, but for me it is empty talking, I like to have hard evidences/proofs, which now are simply lacking.

Regards,
mw

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by durb » 06 Jan 2015 20:03

Mangrove wrote:
durb wrote: But going forward from Uuttu´s case, how many air victories (including Uuttu) were officially recorded and confirmed for the Bulldog pilots of LLv 26 during Winter War? 6 or 2½?
Uuttu's victory was not confirmed by the Finnish Air Force as of January 1941 (SPK 758). The work records 3 Bulldog victories during the Winter War, two of which were marked as "uncertain".
That is the point - Uuttu´s air victory was not officially confirmed by Finnish Air Force in wartime! Leaves it to "probable" territory for all times in my humble opinion.

It is interesting that looking the actual records we may find that later history writing is "confirming" or claiming something that is not so sure in original wartime records. For example crediting Bulldog pilots with six air victories seems to be something made up by later history writers and not been in accordance with the official original Finnish Air Force records.

Now going to more wide spectre, although this may have been answered already in this forum. How were confirmed air victory claims distributed between LLv 24, Llv 26, Koelentue, F 19 and other units during Winter War according to original FAF records? I´m also puzzled with the three "official numbers" - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory info as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history). What to believe when one has three different "officially confirmed" figures on the same thing??

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Jan 2015 21:20

mirekw wrote:There are two reports and nothing more at this moment.
In addition to the Uuttu battle report and Shinkarenko report pieces here, there exists also the info about Pokryshev plane damage and that there were quite many more I-16 planes up there than the that are here being mentioned by Shinkarenko.

Also thetre exists a claim that Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire.
Here?
Image
http://www.livelib.ru/book/1000458456

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by durb » 07 Jan 2015 18:00

I suggest that the Uuttu discussion can be continued here in its very own thread: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=152938

For me it has been enough to know that Bulldog pilots of Llv 26 were offcially credited with one confirmed and two unconfirmed air victories by the Finnish Air Force during Winter War - makes just wonder why in some book they have been credited with 6 air victories? Whatever interpretation, I consider only the officially confirmed air victories as officially confirmed air victories, rest are more or less speculative "probables".

Now my stupid question regarding the officially total confirmed Finnish Air Force air combat victories . How were confirmed air victory claims divided between LLv 24, Llv 26, Koelentue, F 19 and other units during Winter War according to original FAF records? What is the base of confirmed air victory count - 195, 207 or 218?

I´m confused with the three "official numbers" of Finnish air victories of Winter War - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory account as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history).

What to believe when one has three different "officially confirmed" figures on the same thing?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by mirekw » 07 Jan 2015 18:39

I.G. Inoziemcev, Pod krylom Leningrad, it is very old Soviet book (1968 or so ?), I had read it many years ago. There are for sure a photo of Shynkarinko, well know, and behind is his I-16 typ 10. He used as a sources official documents from military archives, but it is popular book.
I´m confused with the three "official numbers" of Finnish air victories of Winter War - 195 "confirmed" (IIRC, FAF air victory account as Jan. 1941), 207 "confirmed" (the most usual info in books) and 218 "confirmed" (current Finnish wiki on FAF history).
This is a good point: 195, 207 or "only" 218 "confirmed" victory? If right rember the figure 195 concern all fighter claims and 207 concern fighters plus bombers and observer planes air success. The figure 218, I do not know where it has come from? Intersting?

This what is also interesting beside destroyed FAF's planes are planes "only" damages. I have not met yet with detail list of damages planes, which were done by combat, non combat reasons, and by each type? The number of destroyed planes has quite similar number of damaged victims of war - minimum 51 severly damaged. It is interesing how many of them were victims of air comabts?

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mw

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Swing » 07 Jan 2015 18:48

Juha Tompuri wrote:.

Also thetre exists a claim that Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire.
Here?
Image
http://www.livelib.ru/book/1000458456

Regards, Juha
1.Inozemtsev's book is about 1941-1945 and have no information about Winter War and problems of Mr. Pokryshev.
2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 07 Jan 2015 21:57

mirekw wrote: This is a good point: 195, 207 or "only" 218 "confirmed" victory? If right rember the figure 195 concern all fighter claims and 207 concern fighters plus bombers and observer planes air success. The figure 218, I do not know where it has come from? Intersting?

This what is also interesting beside destroyed FAF's planes are planes "only" damages. I have not met yet with detail list of damages planes, which were done by combat, non combat reasons, and by each type? The number of destroyed planes has quite similar number of damaged victims of war - minimum 51 severly damaged. It is interesing how many of them were victims of air comabts?
The 1989 book Ilmavoimat talvisodassa has a detailed list of victories, losses and damaged planes. Here is a summary of them:
Victories: 190 (including 6 Bulldog and 5 Blenheim victories)
Losses: 76 (38 in air combat)
Damages: 51 (only about 10 due to enemy action, mainly landing accidents)

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Jan 2015 22:47

Swing wrote:1.Inozemtsev's book is about 1941-1945 and have no information about Winter War and problems of Mr. Pokryshev.
Thanks, a wrong guess then...
Swing earlier wrote:It is not a monography, it is a number of articles of Slon-76 in "Istoria Avjacji" (History of Aviation) magazine, 2005
This one?
http://coollib.com/b/239142/read

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Jan 2015 23:06

Swing wrote:2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.
Hmmm...Pokrtshev again.
Hmmm... Red Stars 7 places those events to 20.12.1939, one exeption being that no Finnish planes were shot down that day (neither two days earlier)
20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
Mentioned as confirmed here:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1622862

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Jan 2015 23:28

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Swing wrote:2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.
Hmmm...Pokrtshev again.
Hmmm... Red Stars 7 places those events to 20.12.1939, one exeption being that no Finnish planes were shot down that day (neither two days earlier)
20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
From "Istoria Avjacji" (History of Aviation) magazine, 2005 ? an online translation:
the third enemy fighter was Senior Lieutenant Pokryšev and Lieutenant Grigoriev. Was closer to "Fokkeru" Grigoriev gave several queues, but it suddenly ran out of ammo. While continuing to pursue the enemy, Pokryšev caught up with the Finnish fighter over Vijpuri and summed it up. But, wanting to make sure enemy aircraft kills, circled around the falling victim to an altitude of 800 m. at this point in his 16-shot and a flak, and the plane was shot down again Pokryševa. Dragging the burning front line fighter, Pokryšev put his 16-and the forest. Although the aircraft is totally burned out, the pilot managed to jump out of a perfectly safe.
http://coollib.com/b/239142/read

Again Pokryshev mentioned to have been shot down by AA-fire ?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Swing » 08 Jan 2015 07:59

According to biography of Pokryshev by E. Baulin (1968), Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire twice. First time - on 1.12.39 and second time on 18.12.39. Finnish fighters did not shot down Pokryshev as they were before it completely destroyed or fled the battlefield :)
According to Kiselev's article in "Istoria aviaciji" Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire on 20.12.1939
According to Wikipedia Pokryshev was shot down on 18.12.1939 (dogfight, reason is unknown)

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 08 Jan 2015 08:08

Hi,

Thanks.
Swing wrote:According to biography of Pokryshev by E. Baulin (1968), Pokryshev was shot down by AA-fire twice. First time - on 1.12.39 and second time on 18.12.39.
Do you know is there any relevant "new" info there about the two cases?
Swing wrote:Finnish fighters did not shot down Pokryshev as they were before it completely destroyed or fled the battlefield :)
Sure someone at the staff must have wondered about the number of planes Finns had compared to the claims.

Regards, Juha

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