Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Swing » 08 Jan 2015 12:42

Juha Tompuri wrote: Do you know is there any relevant "new" info there about the two cases?
Regards, Juha
In brief:
1.12.1939 Soviet squadron flew to Viipuri. It was third mission on this day. Soviet fighters met only VL Tuisku over the city and destroyed it. At this moment Pokryshev had a hit from AA fire. He landed at the swamp between Soviet and Finish trenches and returned to Soviet side in the night.
On 18.12.1939 it was an interception fligt. After midday Soviet fighters got an information about finnish attacks of soviet bombers. They did not found finnish planes and attacked trains at the railway station N-E to Viipuri. Suddenly 3 Fokkers attacked soviet fighters. Pokryshev destroyed finnish leader but two finnish wingmen slinged from his hook. In a moment Pokryshev had a hit from AA fire and force landed in the forest near unknown lake.

Regarding soviet stuffs: to understand the Soviet version of history it is necessary to live in the Soviet Union :). This is also applies to Russia. One Russian poet from XIX century said: "the mind can not understand Russia...one can only believe in Russia". Seriously: all stuffs were wondered why finns fight against Soviets and do not fight against Mannerheim's junta. :o

By the way, it would be nice to check records from ITR 2 war diaries dated 12.1939...

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by durb » 08 Jan 2015 12:59

Seppo Koivisto wrote:
mirekw wrote:
The 1989 book Ilmavoimat talvisodassa has a detailed list of victories, losses and damaged planes. Here is a summary of them:
Victories: 190 (including 6 Bulldog and 5 Blenheim victories)
Losses: 76 (38 in air combat)
Damages: 51 (only about 10 due to enemy action, mainly landing accidents)
It seems that there has been some new research after 1989 or interpretations of same sources produces different figures? The figure that is standard in most books is 207 confirmed Finnish air victories for Winter War. Finnish air victory listing as January 1941 does give 195 and there Bulldog pilots of Llv 26 are credited with one confirmed and two probables (or another interpretation is one confirmed, one probable and one shared).

FAF wiki goes for 218 Finnish air victories of Winter War (later confirmed cases included in tally?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Air_Force: "As a result of these tactics, the Finnish Air Force managed to shoot down 218 Soviet aircraft during the Winter War while losing only 47 to enemy fire."

So here we are: 190 (Ilmavoimat talvisodassa), 195 (FAF air victory listing as Jan. 1941), the "book" 207 and the wiki 218. Which one is the "official truth" or the "most accurate" truth or the very last word on this matter?

When it comes to Bulldog air victories of Llv 26, "Håkans Aviation page" claims that they were two or one confirmed, one probable and one shared. Before dismissing Håkan as wrong, it should be stated that he has used Finnish sources and seems to have tried to be as precise as possible. But again it may be the interpretation that plays a part. Check: http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/bulldog_finland.htm

To me it seems that even the professional historians are not sure of the figures or represent more than one "official" alternative which is rather confusing. Actually very confusing. I guess that if I would go to see all the original archive sources myself to make my own conclusions, I might come up with some new figure!?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Marcus » 10 Jan 2015 13:14

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 10 Jan 2015 16:59

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Swing wrote:2. According to official Sovet history Pokryshev was shot down by Finnish fighter on 18.12.1939, but he was able to land the plane. Pokryshev claimed one Finnish fighter on this day too.
Hmmm...Pokrtshev again.
No. 18.12.39 MIA ml.lnt Bogdanov. I-16
Pokryshev shot dawn AA-fire 20.12.39.
Juha Tompuri wrote:20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
They fought with 68 IAP. It is 99%.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 12 Jan 2015 21:29

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:Hmmm...Pokryshev again.
Hmmm... Red Stars 7 places those events to 20.12.1939, one exeption being that no Finnish planes were shot down that day (neither two days earlier)
20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
From "Istoria Avjacji" (History of Aviation) magazine, 2005 ? an online translation:
the third enemy fighter was Senior Lieutenant Pokryšev and Lieutenant Grigoriev. Was closer to "Fokkeru" Grigoriev gave several queues, but it suddenly ran out of ammo. While continuing to pursue the enemy, Pokryšev caught up with the Finnish fighter over Vijpuri and summed it up. But, wanting to make sure enemy aircraft kills, circled around the falling victim to an altitude of 800 m. at this point in his 16-shot and a flak, and the plane was shot down again Pokryševa. Dragging the burning front line fighter, Pokryšev put his 16-and the forest. Although the aircraft is totally burned out, the pilot managed to jump out of a perfectly safe.
http://coollib.com/b/239142/read

Again Pokryshev mentioned to have been shot down by AA-fire ?
Slon-76 wrote:Pokryshev shot dawn AA-fire 20.12.39.
Juha Tompuri wrote:20. 12 1939 Ltn Vuorela and S.Sgt Rautakorpi claim to have achieved a shared kill.
They fought with 68 IAP. It is 99%.
Håkan wrote:At 16:26 on 20 December, a group of I-16s from 4./7 IAP led by Starshiy Politruk Gabriel Didenko escorted SB bombers. At Karpela, three Fokker D.XXIs were encountered at 2,500m and all three were claimed shot down. Didenko and Starshiy Leytenant Porphyry Mihajlyuk each claimed one while the third was claimed as a shared between Didenko, Mihajlyuk, Starshiy Leytenant Pokryshev, Zobov and Zolotaryev.
Starshiy Leytenant Pokryshev force-landed in Raivola, his I-16 burned.
It is possible that had been involved in combat with Fokker D.XXIs from LLv 24
, which claimed two fighters and one bomber over the Karelian Isthmus. These were claimed ylikersantti Leo Rautakorpi (FR-90) and luutnantti Jaakko Vuorela (FR-87), which both claimed an I-16 each over Kämärä at 14:00 and by luutnantti Tatu Huhanantti (FR-76), who claimed a SB over Lempaala between 14:10-15:00. The Finnish fighters didn't suffer any losses during the day.
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/soviet_pokryshev.htm
Was his plane destroyed? and/or were there other losses/damaged Soviet planes that (20th Dec) day?

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 13 Jan 2015 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 14 Jan 2015 06:45

Juha Tompuri wrote: Was his plane destroyed?
Yes.
Juha Tompuri wrote:and/or were there other losses/damaged Soviet planes that (20th Dec) day?
Fighters? Seriously - no.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Jan 2015 07:47

Thanks.

Do you know about the slightly damaged fighter(s) - unit(s) and at what time?

What about Soviet bomber losses/damages that day at that region?
Were there any?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 15 Jan 2015 12:58

Juha Tompuri wrote: Do you know about the slightly damaged fighter(s) - unit(s) and at what time?
No, I do not know.
Unfortunately, the documents of 68 IAP in this case too concise. It is only known that the regiment (1th sq) claimed one shot down D.XXI in the area of Vyborg. 15.00 15 I-16 (68 IAP, m-r Gil') met the South-East of Vyborg 4 D. XXI (height I-16 - 3500, Fokkers - 3900-4000). Attacked, Finnish fighters took a dive. Later Soviet pilots saw on the ground a strong explosion, decided that dropped one Fokker.
Didenko's Group (which was Pokryshev) from 7 IAP, flew to 15.24. That is, half an hour after Vuorela and Rautakorpi's victories.
Juha Tompuri wrote: What about Soviet bomber losses/damages that day at that region?
20 December due to bad weather bombers almost did not fly. The only large combat sortie - 18 SB from 24 SBAP - Sortavala. The enemy is not met.
29, 55 and 71 AB - not fight
68 AB - 6 SB, 14.20, road Narja (?) - Myllymaki. The enemy is not met.
16 AB - 2 SB (54 SBAP) 14.00, Sainio railstation. In the target area fired on by antiaircraft artillery, in the same plane 50 of shrapnel holes. On the way back attacked by about 27 D.XXI, but was attacked by one "the nine". Front-bottom. In the attack and one hole in the fuselage.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jan 2015 19:55

Thank you.
Slon-76 wrote: It is only known that the regiment (1th sq) claimed one shot down D.XXI in the area of Vyborg. 15.00 15 I-16 (68 IAP, m-r Gil') met the South-East of Vyborg 4 D. XXI (height I-16 - 3500, Fokkers - 3900-4000). Attacked, Finnish fighters took a dive. Later Soviet pilots saw on the ground a strong explosion, decided that dropped one Fokker.
Red Stars 7 doesn't mention anything about combat between them.
There are mention that when the Soviet planes started to gain altitude, the Finnish planes left the scene.
At Vyborg the Soviet pilots saw "apparently a enemy plane" falling down in flames.

Slon-76 wrote:Didenko's Group (which was Pokryshev) from 7 IAP, flew to 15.24. That is, half an hour after Vuorela and Rautakorpi's victories
RS7, writes that at 16.26 hours Soviet planes, escorting SB-bombers met three Fokkers at 2500 m over Karpela(?). Two Finnish planes reported being shot down.

Also this one:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1622861
mentions Rautakorpi and Vuorela sharing one I-16 that day.
Wonder where the "extra" kill had come?

Also some sources (Like SIH 26) mention a kill (SB-2 from 24SBAP) to Huhanantti 14.10-15.00 hours at Lempaala (chased from Vyborg region?) with (cannon armed) FR-76

Somehow the Pokryshev plane is not being mentioned at the RS7 list of the destroyed/damaged planes.

Slon-76 wrote:16 AB - 2 SB (54 SBAP) 14.00, Sainio railstation. In the target area fired on by antiaircraft artillery, in the same plane 50 of shrapnel holes. On the way back attacked by about 27 D.XXI, but was attacked by one "the nine". Front-bottom. In the attack and one hole in the fuselage.
RS7 mentions that at 15.52 hours 9 I-15bis from 2/7IAP strafed Säiniö railway station, got some AA-fire, detected five Fokker D.21 at Kämärä, two of those Finnish planes attacked the Soviet planes, resulting one Finnish plane being shot down. The rest Finns escaped.

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 16 Jan 2015 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 16 Jan 2015 20:51

Juha Tompuri wrote: Red Stars 7 doesn't mention anything about combat between them.
If RS7 talked about everything, why would I need? :D
The Russians attacked - Finns withdrew from the battle of the dive. Not a very clear shot or not
Juha Tompuri wrote:RS7, writes that at 16.26 hours Soviet planes, escorting SB-bombers met three Fokkers at 2500 m over Karpela(?). Two Finnish planes reported being shot down.
RS7 is wrong. For some reason, all the events of that day moved forward an hour.
According to the combat report of the 7th regiment, the departure of the group I-15bis (9 I-15bis, capt. Postaush) 14.26-15.52. Fought with 2 D. XXI in the area of Vyborg. In 15.24 to help them flew I-16 (Didenko). They NOT escorted bombers. Return 16.26.

Juha Tompuri wrote:Also this one:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=1622861
mentions Rautakorpi and Vuorela sharing one I-16 that day.
Wonder where the "extra" kill had come?
I don't know, judging by the time it could be I-16 from 68 IAP, or I-15bis 7 IAP. There are no other options.

Juha Tompuri wrote:Also some sources (Like SIH 26) mention a kill (SB-2 from 24SBAP) to Huhanantti 14.10-15.00 hours at Lempaala (chased from Vyborg region?) with (cannon armed) FR-76
I described all the flights of bombers. Other no.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jan 2015 21:02

Thanks.

Seems that there were several Soviet units (from 7 and 68 IAP) against several Finnish units (from LLv 24 and 26) at about the same region and time that day.

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 16 Jan 2015 21:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 16 Jan 2015 21:36

Juha Tompuri wrote: Seems that there were several Soviet units (from 7 and 68 IAP) against several Finnish units (from LLv 24 and 26) at about the same region and time that day.
There were several fights between 14 and 15 hours (15 and 16 in Moscow). No losses on both sides, not counting Pokryshev and damaged FR-94.
Soviet again won the Finns on overclaim. )))

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Jan 2015 09:48

Juha Tompuri wrote: several Finnish units (from LLv 24 and 26) at about the same region and time that day.
Hmmm... Detachment Vuorela (LLv 24) and Detachment Heinilä (LLv 26) to be more precise .

Regards, Juha
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Karelia » 17 Jan 2015 15:33

Slon-76 wrote:...
RS7 is wrong. For some reason, all the events of that day moved forward an hour.
...
Maybe the time difference between Finland and the USSR have something to do in that?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Jan 2015 19:58

Slon-76 wrote:There were several fights between 14 and 15 hours (15 and 16 in Moscow). No losses on both sides, not counting Pokryshev and damaged FR-94.
Soviet again won the Finns on overclaim. )))
There seems to be one combat damaged Finnish plane that day there.
C-E Bruun at book Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 writes the following (my translation):
... Nieminen, P.Linkola, Kivinen ja Enroth at aerial combat.
I-16 planes managed to surprise and one chased Nieminen through Viipuri along the Torkkeli street. (A I-16, JT) Came to check alongside every now and then. The plane was faster than FR. 23 (bullet, JT) holes were found at inspection after landing
Nieminen flying FR-111 (?)

Those four flying against 7 IAP?

Regards, Juha

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