Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

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Harri
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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 10 Apr 2009 15:34

Finnish Air Force II 1928 - 1940, page 164:
BRIEF ANALYSIS
[...]
In all the Finnish Air Force flew 5963 sorties; claimed 207 aircraft destroyed and lost 53 warplanes on operations. The anti-aircraft guns took the toll of a further 314 aircraft. Recent research from Russian archives has shown the losses to be 579 aircraft which are well in line with the total Finnish claim 521.
The Soviet air forces flew on the Finnish front 100.970 sorties; claimed 427 aerial victories and lost 261 aircraft according to Soviet era records. The claims have been adjusted in modern research to 388 aircraft: 188 by fighters, 146 by bombers, 54 by the Baltic Fleet air forces.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 10 Apr 2009 16:22

Finnish AIr Force II 1928 - 1940 [additions mine]. Other comments from other Finnish and Swedish sources:

12.1.1940 (page 116):
In Lapland [Swedish] F19 flew its first mission, when four [Hawker] Harts escorted by four [Gloster] Gladiators bombed first a column at Salmijärvi [close to Salla] and then Märkäjärvi [nowadays a new Salla] air base, where three 15bis [I-152] fighters of 145 IAP were destroyed. Several red fighters climbed for combat and the Gladiators shot one down.
Swedish volunteer 2Lt Ian Iacobi shot down one I-152 of 145 IAP (pilot unknown). This case is missing from your list.

17.1.1940 (page 119/120):
In the north the Gladiators of F19 shot down to fighters from 145 IAP during a reconnaissance mission to Salla. [...]54 SBAP claimed eleven fighters shot down in Lappeenranta area.
2Lt Per-Johan Salwén and 2Lt Roland Martin shot down one I-152 fighter each on Märkäjärvi. The Soviet planes were flown by Lt. Bondarenko and Lt. Benediktov. These are missing from your list.

No Finnish losses during that day.

20.1.1940 (page 122):
Detachment Luukkanen of LLv. 24 engaged north of Lake Ladoga SB [some of them were actually DB-3 like in the table] bombers of 21 DBAP [, 18 SBAP and 35 SBAP] both arriving and departing and succeeded in destroying five of them. WO Viktor Pyötsiä scored two of them and SSgt Pentti Tilli one, both becoming aces. Then the luck turned and two I-16s appeared on the scene to chase the Finnish Fokkers and Tilli was shot down to death.
[...]
49 IAP claimed one Fokker D.XXI and two Fokker C.Xs shot down and 38 IAP claimed one Fokker D.XXI in central Finland. 21 DBAP claimed four Fokker D.XXIs north east of Lake Ladoga.
Just one Finnish Fokker D.XXI [FR-107] was lost.

23.1.1940 (page 123):
In Lapland F19 Gladiators flew air patrol over the front tasked to prevent the strafing of Soviet fighters. In the ensuing combat one Gladiator was shot down.
[...]
In Lapland 145 IAP claimed one reconnaissance bi-plane shot down.
Swedish volunteer pilot 2Lt John Sjöqvist was shot down and killed in action (GL/B).

1.2.1940 (page 130):
LLv. 12 photographed at noon in bright daylight the front on the Karelian Isthmus. SSgt Marttila and Sgt Salminen manned FK-105 and the clear pictures revealed the spearhead of the Russian attack. Four Fokker fighters from LLv. 24 escorted and 7 IAP fighters shot down one Fokker D.XXI [FR-115, on Venäjänsaari] killing 2Lt [res.] Tapani Harmaja while protecting the photo plane from the attack of about 40 enemy fighters.
[...]
Two fighters were claimed by 7 IAP.
Two I-16 fighters (of 7 IAP) were also claimed (unwitnessed) by the Finns. Another one was shot down by Lt Per-Erik Sovelius and another by MSgt Sakari Ikonen.

2.2.1940 (page 131):
25 IAP claimed eleven Fokker D.XXIs and one two-seat fighter shot down. Additionally 38 IAP claimed two aircraft destroyed and 7 DBAP one Fokker D.XXI. 57 AP, KFB claimed on Fokker over the Gulf of Finland.
Actually only one Finnish Fokker D.XXI flown by Danish volunter Frits Rasmussen was shot down by I-16 of 25 IAP and was killed in action on Rauha near Imatra. Finns claimed also one I-16 from 149 IAP shot down and one unwitnessed as well as one damaged (all cases by SSgt Oiva Tuominen, GL-258 / LLv. 26). Also one I-15bis (I-152) was shot down on western Finland on Bromarv by Lt. Paavo Berg (GL-263 / LLv. 26)

10.2.1940 (page 133):
The 4th Flight of LLv. 24 attacked a large bomber formation over Lappeenranta, but the equally numerous fighter escort handled the situation and shot down one Fokker D.XXI [FR-102], MSgt Väinö Ikonen getting wounded.
Soviet fighters were either from 7 or 25 IAP.
The case of 11.2.1940 was handled alredy earlier.

13.2.1940 (page 134/135):
[WO Oiva Tuominen / LLv. 26:]"When I was patrolling with WO Lautamäki in Jänisjärvi station area, I noticed nine SBs arriving east of Suojärvi and heading west. I signalled WO Lautamäki and turned towards the enemy planes. The enemy formation banked to east and east of Soanjoki I caught them and shot the port wing aircraft into fire. It crashed in the woods. So did the next one after a minute. And the third crashed into a small pond.
Then nine more bombers arrived from Loimola direction joining the others. At first I thought they were fighters as the distance grew a little, but I caught them over Kivijärvi and shot at the starboard wing aircraft. When I fired the second burst it crashed in flames to the north bank of Kivijärvi lake.
At the same time an I-15 [bis, I-152] took off from the ice, I shot it immediately down at the edge of the forest, where it crashed in fire. My fighter had two bullet holes in the wings fired from the ground. Own aircraft GL-255."
The shot down I-152 was unwitnessed. Cpl. Ilmari Joensuu (GL-256 / LLv. 26) shot down one I-152 from 49 IAP on Havuvaara. In the same battle volunteer Danish pilot Lt. C. Knut Kalmberg (GL-260 / LLv. 26) was shot down by I-153 of 49 IAP. At Summa Lt. Tatu Huhanantti damaged one I-152 at Summa. Another Danish volunteer Lt Jörn Ulrich was wounded in action forced landing after attacking by a I-153 fighter of 49 IAP on Kuhilasvaara.

16.2.1940:
SSgt Valio Porvari (GL-264 / LLv. 26) shot down one I-16 of 9 LShAP. On the other hand 7 IAP claimed one fighter. No Finnish losses.

19.2.1940 [page 139]:
(to be continued soon)

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Mangrove » 10 Apr 2009 19:56

When reviewing the Soviet claims it's good to remember their intelligence wasn't the best. Usually the regimental level intelligence is better than the state one, but in this case it wasn't (Fokkers and other fighters were recognised as "FW-190s" in 1941-).

Finnish National Archive. File "Perus 1642/5".
= Ilmoitus 4975 =
Ilmoitti LentoR 33 9.A:n ilm.v:lle 3.2. klo 21.56: Komdiv Jusupoville taisteluilmoitus no 8. DBAE / Kaukopommituseskadrilli ? / Kantalahti 3 pna helmik. klo 0805 lähti 4 kpl DB-3 lentoon tavoitteenaan Kemijärvi. Tavoitteen pommitus suoritettiin klo 0930 2300 metrin korkeudelta. Miehistön havaintojen mukaan putosivat pommit itäalueelle. Kaikkiaan tuli pudotetuksi 32 kpl FAB-100 ja 8 kpl ZAB-50. Venäl. hävittäjät olivat saattamassa ja palasivat lähtöpaikkaansa. Lähestyessä tavoitettansa venäl. koneet joutuivat suomal. it-tulen alaisiksi ja viisi D-21 mallista Fokker-konetta hyökkäsi niiden kimppuun. Venäl. vastaan ammutut it. ammukset räjähtivät lennon tasolla /…./
33rd Flying Regiment to 9th Army Air Force on 3rd February [1940] 9.56 p.m. To Komdiv Jusupov; 8 DBAE's report. Four DB-3s left from Kandalaksha to bomb Kemijärvi on 3rd February 08.05 a.m. Bombing took place in 09.30 a.m. at 2300 meters. According to the crews the bombs hit to the eastern area. Total of 32 FAB-100s and 8 ZAB-50s were dropped. Soviet fighters were escorting the bombers and returned to the starting point. Anti-aircraft fire found the bombers when they approached their target and five model D-21 Fokkers attacked them. The anti-aircraft shells exploded at the same level as the bombers /..../

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Apr 2009 20:50

Slon-76 wrote:About fight on 1-st of December I shall answer in Russian. Sorry. I do not know as to explain it in English.
I attentively again examined facts known to me. In principle, is only words To [uuttu] against the words [Shinkarenko]. It is possible that [Uuttu] actually fired [Pokrysheva], but this occurred as the minimum in 35-40 kilometers from the front line. With the pierced oil radiator Of [pokryshev] hardly so many it would fly. Version with the firing from the earth to me seems more plausible, but these are only my personal impressions. But in any event, the aircraft Of [pokrysheva] (I -16 of № 1021625) was returned into the system. Therefore on the whole there are no reasons for the dispute. There is no confirmation of victory To [uuttu]. At best it damaged the aircraft Of [pokrysheva]. I do think, a question on this can be closed?
The battle started from ca.1500m height, I think that ca there one can reach the mentioned distance as the engine seemed to work at least at the beginning.
Wonder why the real events were not mentioned at the Soviet report?
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri: Not the first time when Soviet dates don't fit to the events.
8O
"The magazine of operations " is filled daily. How there it is possible to mix dates?
Don't know, but Red Stars 5 mention "another" possible case: Soviet info mentions a DB-3 of 2/53 DBAP shot down at Bengtskär area 2nd Feb-40 but Finnish report mention the event taking place 4th Feb-40.
Slon-76 wrote:Why it is impossible to recognize, what Ehrnrooth was mistaken? Has mixed DB-3 with SB and has shott down nobody.
It is more logical, than to attribute to him lost in the afternoon later the plane...
AFAIK the SB-2 wreck was found at Tuulos-Riihimäki area.
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri:Lautamäki mentions at his report that after he left the SB-2 "kytemään" (= glowing, slowly burning). After that Finnish AAA shot down the plane (exploded mid-air) down.
I would rate that as shared victory.
SIH 26 mentions the Ehrnrooth "kill" at 13th Jan.
Source of this mistake in RS 5 and SIH 26 - one. He is Dear K.Geust.
Relative to the victory Of [lautamyaki] on January 14. I will try to look even any additional information about the actions 35 [LBAP] on January 14. Something can and will explain. In all into this day it is lost by regiment 2 sb - hares and [Balbukhov]. [Balbukhov] it is biased by the antiaircraft artillery above the station heel pads. It exploded in air. Component of " [buldogov]" attacked four sb in the region of station [Kervo] (?). Three sb were detached at the speed. What became with the fourth - it is not known. It is possibly actually [Lautamyaki] + OF [AAA
Actually it is C-F (not K) Geust.
The source of Lautamäki sharing the "kill" comes from the battle reports.


Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Apr 2009 22:27

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:I checked the victories declared by Finns over « winter war ». On bombers exceeds approximately in 1,5 times, on fighters - about 4-5 times.
Are you sure you aren't writing here about Soviet AF (over)claims?
Excuse me, certainly not 4-5, but 3-4 times.
At the list of losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters according to the Soviet/Russian(?) info, you have posted 15 planes.
The original claim of yours was that Finns had overclaimed 4-5 times = 60-75 claims
Then you corrected the ratio being 3-4 times = 45-60 claims
Are you still sure about the ratio?

Also I think we ought to check the backgrounds of the Finnish captured Soviet plane fates, were there any of the 14 planes that were captured lost because of Finnish fighter activities.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 11 Apr 2009 12:21

Martti Kujansuu wrote: 33rd Flying Regiment to 9th Army Air Force on 3rd February [1940] 9.56 p.m. To Komdiv Jusupov; 8 DBAE's report. Four DB-3s left from Kandalaksha to bomb Kemijärvi on 3rd February 08.05 a.m. Bombing took place in 09.30 a.m. at 2300 meters. According to the crews the bombs hit to the eastern area. Total of 32 FAB-100s and 8 ZAB-50s were dropped. Soviet fighters were escorting the bombers and returned to the starting point. Anti-aircraft fire found the bombers when they approached their target and five model D-21 Fokkers attacked them. The anti-aircraft shells exploded at the same level as the bombers /..../
Thanks. The interesting document.
Interestingly that:
1)33 Aviation Regiment were in structure of the Air Forces of 14 armies and flied on SB.
2) 8 DBAE in structure a regiment was not
3) The squadron 33 SBAP has made a strike on Kemijarvi at the request of the commander of the Air Forces of 9 armies Rychagov's.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 11 Apr 2009 12:48

Juha Tompuri wrote: At the list of losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters according to the Soviet/Russian(?) info, you have posted 15 planes.
The original claim of yours was that Finns had overclaimed 4-5 times = 60-75 claims
Then you corrected the ratio being 3-4 times = 45-60 claims
Are you still sure about the ratio?
Why not?
It agrees SIH 26-27 Finnish pilots it is declared shot down (T and Е):
23 I-16 (16 T + 7 E)
8 I-153 (all T)
9 I-15bis (6 T + 3 E)
+ 3 I-15bis F19 + 2 I-16 and 3 I-153 bombers
In total 48 fighters


The part from the fighters specified by me passes as MIA, that is 100 % of confidence, that they have been shot down in fight nevertheless are not present.
Therefore I have written 3-4, instead of 3,2. :)
Juha Tompuri wrote: Also I think we ought to check the backgrounds of the Finnish captured Soviet plane fates, were there any of the 14 planes that were captured lost because of Finnish fighter activities.
I can precisely tell, that it ê-16, brought down on February, 2. On the rests the information, where and when they have been seized is necessary. At me it is not present

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 11 Apr 2009 13:54

Juha Tompuri wrote:
The battle started from ca.1500m height, I think that ca there one can reach the mentioned distance as the engine seemed to work at least at the beginning.
Wonder why the real events were not mentioned at the Soviet report?

And what events "real"?
At the Finnish side motives to lie too were. The first air fight in a history of the Air Forces of Finland. Poorly if it terminates in pure defeat.
I admit, that Uuttu the rights. But it does not mean, that he is for certain right.
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote: 8O
"The magazine of operations " is filled daily. How there it is possible to mix dates?

Don't know, but Red Stars 5 mention "another" possible case: Soviet info mentions a DB-3 of 2/53 DBAP shot down at Bengtskär area 2nd Feb-40 but Finnish report mention the event taking place 4th Feb-40.
And you do not think, what it is the Finnish side is mistaken?
4-th February, 53 DBAP did not fly.
2го February of 53 airregiment (20 ДБ-3) bombed Pori. Coming back, bombers in area Hanko have been intercepted by 4 fighters. In result it is shot down 1 DB-3 and 1 fighter. (I know, that the Finnish fighters of losses had no).
Search for the hero with not included victory.
By the way. Details of loss FIAT's 27.02.40 are interesting.
I think, that it was brought down by 29-th. 27-th - not a flying weather.
Os. Ahola, the example, did not fly.
Juha Tompuri wrote: AFAIK the SB-2 wreck was found at Tuulos-Riihimäki area.
You are so obstinate, that I began to doubt of the correctness.:)
OK. I once again shall look documents on 35 and 53 regiments 13th and 14th Jan. The answer I shall give in a week.
Juha Tompuri wrote: Actually it is C-F (not K) Geust.
[/quote]

Ups...  It was symbiosis of Russian and English.
Certainly Carl-Frederik (on russian - Карл-Фредерик). I even am a little familiar with him.

Regards

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Harri » 11 Apr 2009 14:02

On 2.2.1940 Finns claimed two Soviet fighters shot down, one unwitnessed and one damaged:
10:40 Bromarv: (in a table) I-152, 38 IAP, destroyed, (in text) I-153, OIAE, destroyed
15:40 Elimäki: I-16, unit unknown, damaged
15:40 Kotka: I-16, 149 IAP, destroyed
16:00 Suursaari island: I-16, unit unknown, unwitnessed

Can some recognize this shot down SB (place and unit with a red (?) flash in tail)?:
http://www.geocities.com/finnmilpge/fmp_contents.html

Could this be the same plane Juha talked about?

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 11 Apr 2009 15:12

Harri wrote:

I don't know if planes crashed on the Finnish side but the crashes have been noticed by nearby Finnish troops (at once or later). These kinds of happenings are usually written down to unit's war diary. If no other claims have been reported on that area (this time there were several SBs) the kill was confirmed. This happened on Muolaanjärvi, Karelian Isthmus.
And nevertheless all three damaged in fight I-16 have reached the air stations.
At one of them fuel (tanks are shot) was terminated and it was broke at landing in Kasimovo. (Earlier I have wrongly written Pushkin). See it the Finnish soldiers could not.
Probably they saw falling SB.
It not a unique case in a history when observers have confirmed "overclaim".

20/12/39:
Harri wrote:
Finnish source don't mention the Soviet unit. No Finnish losses for that day. Actually 7 IAP announced it had shot down four Finnish fighters.
Proceeding from the description of fight is a fight with 68 IAP.
The Finnish victories are gained at 14.00, I-16 7 IAP have flied up at 15.24 (on Finnish time - 14.24)
Harri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:
One Blenheim of LLv.46 was chased by three I-16s [probably from 49 IAP] over Salmi when the rear gunner [Sgt V. Mörsky] managed to shoot down one attacker, the first kill scored by the gunners.
Has probably, really damaged I-16 49 IAP
Probably or really? I think losses or damages either happened or not?
One I-16 49 IAP has made an force landing. I do not know the reason. But it is very far from a place specified Morski.
Harri wrote:
You wrote:
23.12.39 I-16 4/68 IAP Arhipov POW SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Grigorev KIA SE Viipuri Shot down in air combat
23.12.39 I-16 4/7 IAP Zolotarjev MIA SE Viipuri MIA. After air combat
This 64 is not a spelling mistake because it is both in the Finnish and English text.
Yes, 7 IAP - two, 68 IAP - one. 64 IAP in winter war did not participate. This is 100... no, 200%
By the way, has noticed. A surname of the pilot 68 IAP - Kovalkov, instead of Arhipov.
Harri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:It is shot down 1 I-15bis. The second is damaged, but restored.
What was this Soviet fighter unit? Like told no records for this has not been found from the Soviet archives.
Fighters group of captain Tkachenko. (ex. 5/49 IAP and 2/72 SAP)
On this group of documents really it is not enough.
But record about this fight is in «Magazine of operations» of the Air Forces of 8 armies
Harri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:
On the last day of the year Sgt Ilmari [actually Eino "Illu"] Juutilainen. member of LLv.24's Detachment Luukkanen and the future top scorer with 94 kills blasted behind Lt Jorma "Joppe" Karhunen's tail a lone I-16 on the northern shore of Lake Ladoga [at Uomaa].
Not losses. I read Lorentz's message on this fight. Juutilainen has missed I-16 in clouds.
This was a witnessed victory. Lt.Col. Lorentz was the Commander of the Flying Regiment 2 and not present in combat. So this victory was officially accepted by Squadron Commander Maj. Magnusson and Lorentz. It would be interesting to read the combat reports of Juutilainen as well as the report of the eye-witness.
Look the appendix


Harri wrote: As far as I know the plane flew close above the ice airstrip at Ruokolahti and it was shot at almost directly from the side by twin MG. It was seen by several persons that the plane was hit at close range. After shooting plane suddenly jumped up and turned to the direction where it was later found. It could mean the pilot was hit. After the forced landing pilot had managed to climb out from the cabin and was sitting dead under a tall tree either killed by coldness or wounds or both. Plane was not burned and it was believed that the reason for the crash was wounding of the pilot. I don't remember for sure when exactly the place was found.

I think no aerial battles took place on 13.2.1940 close enough to Ruokolahti base. But never say never. We should dig the original files from archives to know what there was found. Do you find any damaged 68 IAP planes for 29.2.1940?
68 IAP 29/02/40 I-153 did not lose. 68 IAP 29/02/40 I-153 did not lose. Sense to hide this loss in general is not present.
13.02.40 9 I-153 flied on investigation of air stations to area Lappeenranta. On a return way were shot antiaircraft fire because of any gulf. One I-153 (Doletskiy) is compelled sat in the Finnish territory.
In my copy of " the Fighting report " 7 IAP for 13.02.40 name of point (where has landed I-153), unfortunately, it is badly read. Something like «Юккола». Probably it Jakola near to Imatra.
In general I shall search for variants.
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Last edited by Slon-76 on 11 Apr 2009 18:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 11 Apr 2009 16:06

Harri wrote:
12.1.1940 (page 116):
Swedish volunteer 2Lt Ian Iacobi shot down one I-152 of 145 IAP (pilot unknown). This case is missing from your list.
Because a victory was not.
In air station at this time was two broken earlier in failures I-15бис and one serviceable. The others have departed on other base even in the morning. Because of preparing deviation of 122 divisions.
The serviceable plane has flied up on interception, but has soon landed because of refusal of machine guns. In aircraft was two holes in a tail part
Harri wrote: 17.1.1940 (page 119/120):
In the north the Gladiators of F19 shot down to fighters from 145 IAP during a reconnaissance mission to Salla. [...]54 SBAP claimed eleven fighters shot down in Lappeenranta area.

2Lt Per-Johan Salwén and 2Lt Roland Martin shot down one I-152 fighter each on Märkäjärvi. The Soviet planes were flown by Lt. Bondarenko and Lt. Benediktov. These are missing from your list.

No Finnish losses during that day.
Too is not.
Bondarenko has broken the plane because of refusal of the motor (Has strongly cooled) INTO WAYS TO FRONT, In 30 km from a place of "fight". Venediktov (not Benediktov) "скапотировал" (I do not know, how it in English, " has turned over through a nose "). This plane have repaired.
Harri wrote: 1.2.1940 (page 130):
LLv. 12 photographed at noon in bright daylight the front on the Karelian Isthmus. SSgt Marttila and Sgt Salminen manned FK-105 and the clear pictures revealed the spearhead of the Russian attack. Four Fokker fighters from LLv. 24 escorted and 7 IAP fighters shot down one Fokker D.XXI [FR-115, on Venäjänsaari] killing 2Lt [res.] Tapani Harmaja while protecting the photo plane from the attack of about 40 enemy fighters.
[...]
Two fighters were claimed by 7 IAP.


Two I-16 fighters (of 7 IAP) were also claimed (unwitnessed) by the Finns. Another one was shot down by Lt Per-Erik Sovelius and another by MSgt Sakari Ikonen.
Only one I-16. I think, Ikonen"s have included a "probable" victory over respect for the person of this pilot

2.2.1940 (page 131):
25 IAP claimed eleven Fokker D.XXIs and one two-seat fighter shot down. Additionally 38 IAP claimed two aircraft destroyed and 7 DBAP one Fokker D.XXI. 57 AP, KFB claimed on Fokker over the Gulf of Finland.
Harri wrote: Actually only one Finnish Fokker D.XXI flown by Danish volunter Frits Rasmussen was shot down by I-16 of 25 IAP and was killed in action on Rauha near Imatra. Finns claimed also one I-16 from 149 IAP shot down and one unwitnessed as well as one damaged (all cases by SSgt Oiva Tuominen, GL-258 / LLv. 26). Also one I-15bis (I-152) was shot down on western Finland on Bromarv by Lt. Paavo Berg (GL-263 / LLv. 26)
The second I-16 (Astakhov, 149 IAP), attacked Tuominen, has safely returned on the air station.
Harri wrote: 13.2.1940 (page 134/135):
The shot down I-152 was unwitnessed. Cpl. Ilmari Joensuu (GL-256 / LLv. 26) shot down one I-152 from 49 IAP on Havuvaara. In the same battle volunteer Danish pilot Lt. C. Knut Kalmberg (GL-260 / LLv. 26) was shot down by I-153 of 49 IAP. At Summa Lt. Tatu Huhanantti damaged one I-152 at Summa. Another Danish volunteer Lt Jörn Ulrich was wounded in action forced landing after attacking by a I-153 fighter of 49 IAP on Kuhilasvaara.
Only one is lost I-15bis (Kochmala, IAGr. Tkachenko).
Harri wrote: 16.2.1940:
SSgt Valio Porvari (GL-264 / LLv. 26) shot down one I-16 of 9 LShAP. On the other hand 7 IAP claimed one fighter. No Finnish losses.

19.2.1940 [page 139]:
(to be continued soon)
9 LShAP flied on I-15bis. Losses 16.02 had no.

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 Apr 2009 16:38

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: At the list of losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters according to the Soviet/Russian(?) info, you have posted 15 planes.
The original claim of yours was that Finns had overclaimed 4-5 times = 60-75 claims
Then you corrected the ratio being 3-4 times = 45-60 claims
Are you still sure about the ratio?
Why not?
It agrees SIH 26-27 Finnish pilots it is declared shot down (T and Е):
23 I-16 (16 T + 7 E)
8 I-153 (all T)
9 I-15bis (6 T + 3 E)
+ 3 I-15bis F19 + 2 I-16 and 3 I-153 bombers
In total 48 fighters


The part from the fighters specified by me passes as MIA, that is 100 % of confidence, that they have been shot down in fight nevertheless are not present.
Therefore I have written 3-4, instead of 3,2. :)
Why?
Beacause of what you earlier have written:
Slon-76 earlier wrote:
Losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters.
It not all losses of the Soviet fighters.

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Also I think we ought to check the backgrounds of the Finnish captured Soviet plane fates, were there any of the 14 planes that were captured lost because of Finnish fighter activities.
I can precisely tell, that it ê-16, brought down on February, 2. On the rests the information, where and when they have been seized is necessary. At me it is not present
Have to check the other cases too.
They were sort of "double victories" - one plane off from enemy inventory, one plane more to our Air Force inventory.
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
The battle started from ca.1500m height, I think that ca there one can reach the mentioned distance as the engine seemed to work at least at the beginning.
Wonder why the real events were not mentioned at the Soviet report?

And what events "real"?
At the Finnish side motives to lie too were. The first air fight in a history of the Air Forces of Finland. Poorly if it terminates in pure defeat.
I admit, that Uuttu the rights. But it does not mean, that he is for certain right.
It is strange that as far as I know, the Soviet report mentions Uuttu's plane as (an unarmed) trainer.
Perhaps it was too embarrasing to have been brought down by such an antique plane.
If you happen to know any mistakes at Uuttu's combat report, please post.


More later.


Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Slon-76 » 11 Apr 2009 18:08

Juha Tompuri wrote: Why?
Beacause of what you earlier have written:
Slon-76 earlier wrote:
Losses of the Soviet fighters in fights with the Finnish fighters.
It not all losses of the Soviet fighters.
Also what from that? Certainly, it not all losses. There were still shot down antiaircraft fire, noncombat losses, etc. My list includes only shot down the Finnish fighters. I did not mention others.
Juha Tompuri wrote:Have to check the other cases too.
no problems. Let's check.
But I already spoke, that I do not know, which planes and when have been seized by Finns.
If you will give me these data, I can compare to the Soviet data and then it will be possible to think
Juha Tompuri wrote:They were sort of "double victories" - one plane off from enemy inventory, one plane more to our Air Force inventory.
You consider, what such victory should be considered for two? Or I have not understood?
Juha Tompuri wrote:
It is strange that as far as I know, the Soviet report mentions Uuttu's plane as (an unarmed) trainer.
Perhaps it was too embarrasing to have been brought down by such an antique plane.
I spread report Shinkarenko!
He speaks about " the plane a fighter tipe"
Juha Tompuri wrote:If you happen to know any mistakes at Uuttu's combat report, please post.
:) If you happen to know any mistakes Shinkarenko's combat report, please post.
Correct me if I am mistaken. But I have an impression, that in Finland there is a confidence, that any Finnish document - is truthful by definition, and any Soviet document - only in case it does not contradict Finnish. :idea:
More later.
I wait with interest.


Regards

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 Apr 2009 21:37

Slon-76 wrote: My list includes only shot down the Finnish fighters. I did not mention others.
Your first one, yes.
But how about the other?
Slon-76 wrote:Why not?
It agrees SIH 26-27 Finnish pilots it is declared shot down (T and Е):
23 I-16 (16 T + 7 E)
8 I-153 (all T)
9 I-15bis (6 T + 3 E)
+ 3 I-15bis F19 + 2 I-16 and 3 I-153 bombers
In total 48 fighters


The part from the fighters specified by me passes as MIA, that is 100 % of confidence, that they have been shot down in fight nevertheless are not present.
Therefore I have written 3-4, instead of 3,2. :)
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:They were sort of "double victories" - one plane off from enemy inventory, one plane more to our Air Force inventory.
You consider, what such victory should be considered for two? Or I have not understood?
Sort of yes, as it's an "double harm", as a "normal kill" is just one plane off from the enemy inventory, compared to the situation that the captured plane is also an increase to the enemy inventory.
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
It is strange that as far as I know, the Soviet report mentions Uuttu's plane as (an unarmed) trainer.
Perhaps it was too embarrasing to have been brought down by such an antique plane.
I spread report Shinkarenko!
He speaks about " the plane a fighter tipe"
Sorry, didn't know that.
My info was from the Bruun book, where it's mentioned that at a Soviet pilot biography he mentiones having shot down a VL Tuisku trainer over Muolaa, and after that got hits from small calibre AAA and then having made a forced landing.
Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:If you happen to know any mistakes at Uuttu's combat report, please post.
:) If you happen to know any mistakes Shinkarenko's combat report, please post.
how he describes the combat, does he mention being hit from the fire from the Bulldog?
Slon-76 wrote:Correct me if I am mistaken. But I have an impression, that in Finland there is a confidence, that any Finnish document - is truthful by definition, and any Soviet document - only in case it does not contradict Finnish. :idea:
No, it depends at the evidence.
And when it comes to word against a word situation, I think the Soviet side at that time exaggeraed the things more than Finns.
Slon-76 wrote:
More later.
I wait with interest.

Thanks.


Regards, Juha

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Re: Finnish Air Force claims and lossess (fighter squadrons)

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 Apr 2009 23:27

Slon-76 wrote:In my copy of " the Fighting report " 7 IAP for 13.02.40 name of point (where has landed I-153), unfortunately, it is badly read. Something like «Юккола». Probably it Jakola near to Imatra.
Perhaps Jukkola at the South coast here: http://nashhlam.front.ru/01/11.jpg

Regards, ЮХА

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