Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

[Steady]

Having lived in Jakola for quite some time in the past, no knowlegde of shot down Soviet planes in there though other actions did happen. Planes did fall down very near into neighbouring Enso.

Jakola was bombed, at least one farmhouse received a direct hit through its roof from unexploded bomb.

[Slon-76]

In my copy of " the Fighting report " 7 IAP for 13.02.40 name of point (where has landed I-153), unfortunately, it is badly read. Something like «Юккола». Probably it Jakola near to Imatra.

Perhaps Jukkola at the South coast here: http://nashhlam.front.ru/01/11.jpg

Regards, ЮХА

I thought of it. But in "Magazine of operations" 7 IAP it is precisely specified, that the plane has landed in territory of the opponent. This Jukkola has already been occupied RKKA.
However, I do not assert, that it is that plane. Simply circumstances are similar.

[Slon-76]

Having lived in Jakola for quite some time in the past, no knowlegde of shot down Soviet planes in there though other actions did happen. Planes did fall down very near into neighbouring Enso.

Jakola was bombed, at least one farmhouse received a direct hit through its roof from unexploded bomb.

Thanks, interestingly.
However, not the fact, that pilots have specified a correct place. I-153 could land both little bit to the south and to the north, etc. Such mistakes in orientation were frequently. Thanks, interestingly.

[patrik.possi]

Intresting discusion!

My favorit Soviet overclaim is the proclaimed Finnish aircrafts destroyed on the 25th june 1941 number range from 40-120 Finnish aircraft actully the Finnish airforce lost 2 planes in accidents.

[Juha Tompuri]

Intresting discusion!

My favorit Soviet overclaim is the proclaimed Finnish aircrafts destroyed on the 25th june 1941 number range from 40-120 Finnish aircraft actully the Finnish airforce lost 2 planes in accidents.

This thread is about Finnish claims, and we have here concentrated to the Winter War.
I think Continuation War and also the Soviet claims at both wars would need threads of their own.
As well as the Finnish captured planes.
There are already more than enough questions and comments to be answered here.

7 IAP it is precisely specified, that the plane has landed in territory of the opponent. This Jukkola has already been occupied RKKA.

How about Juvola (at Lemi - West of Lappeenranta, also another smaller at Savonlinna) or Jurvala (at Luumäki, also West of Lapeenranta)


Regards, Juha

[Topspeed]

I recall there were hundreds more missing planes in soviet archives than there were actually claims.

Recently I straightened out a detail about one veterans story 18 years ago.
He recalled seeing a svastika enblem plane shooting down 6 IL-2:s in very rapid succession over the skies of Karelia. I thought this story was made up, but I recall all the details he said and seem that it was the unconfirmed battle Kössi Karhila had against 6 IL-2 of which he downed 5 ( run outa ammo and turned back ). These IL:s had shot all ammo on Lappeenranta and were an easy pray for an experienced pilot.

[Slon-76]

How about Juvola (at Lemi - West of Lappeenranta, also another smaller at Savonlinna) or Jurvala (at Luumäki, also West of Lapeenranta)
Regards, Juha

We can long guess...
Unfortunately, record in the document really is very difficultly read.
It can even Sakkola. Precisely only last five letters.

[Harri]

Slon, can you speak/read Finnish?

In your attachment about Sgt. Juutilainen's aerial victory on 31.12.1939 is clearly originally written "epävarma" [uncertain] which is crossed our and replaced with a hand written text "todistettu" [witnessed]. It is not mentioned here how and who wittnessed the case but usually that means the wreck of the plane was found or a pilot was cought.

AT 10:30 Sergeant Juutilainen [...] saw one I-16 on the region Uomaa - Kitelä, attacked and during the combat could come to shoot several times from the distance of 100 - 50 metres [a typical attack distance, one seldom miss from that distance]. I-16 started to smoke and sunk down in a slide curve. Sergeant Juutilainen pulled into cloud after coming out from it he could not find the enemy below or above the cloud.

[Juha Tompuri]

We can long guess...
Unfortunately, record in the document really is very difficultly read.
It can even Sakkola. Precisely only last five letters.

Aha...
Sakkola also being the crash site of the first shot down Soviet plane in Winter War.
30th Nov-39 at 0930 o'clock a I-15bis, also from 7 IAP, piloted by 1stLtn Grigoryev.
(info from Stalinin kiusa, Himmlerin täi (Nuisance of Stalin, Louse of Himmler) by Ohto Manninen)

Regards, Juha

[Slon-76]

Slon, can you speak/read Finnish?

Yes, I read a little...

In your attachment about Sgt. Juutilainen's aerial victory on 31.12.1939 is clearly originally written "epävarma" [uncertain] which is crossed our and replaced with a hand written text "todistettu" [witnessed]. It is not mentioned here how and who wittnessed the case but usually that means the wreck of the plane was found or a pilot was cought.

I knew, that somebody it will tell!
I read Juutilainen's book. He writes:

Our Army troops later found it burned and full of holes at Syskyjarvi. I had actually expended too much ammunition on the airplane due to the excitement of the fight. My only damage was a radio antenna which had broken off due to the violent shaking of the Fokker.

From the Soviet side fight looked so:

«В 11 часов 50 минут в районе Уома 2 И-16 Управления 49 иап встретили 4 самолета противника типа «ФД-21» (ходили попарно). Наши самолеты ввязались в бой. Самолеты противника, пользуясь облачностью ушли в северо-западном направлении».

Want to tell to me, what 49 IAP "has not noticed" loss of one of the senior commanders?

But. The plane at lake have really probably found. Only it was one of two I-16, disappeared at a start in area Syskyjarvi on 10-th of December. Low clouds that day were...

AT 10:30 Sergeant Juutilainen [...] saw one I-16 on the region Uomaa - Kitelä, attacked and during the combat could come to shoot several times from the distance of 100 - 50 metres [a typical attack distance, one seldom miss from that distance]. I-16 started to smoke and sunk down in a slide curve. Sergeant Juutilainen pulled into cloud after coming out from it he could not find the enemy below or above the cloud.

[Slon-76]

Aha...
Sakkola also being the crash site of the first shot down Soviet plane in Winter War.
30th Nov-39 at 0930 o'clock a I-15bis, also from 7 IAP, piloted by 1stLtn Grigoryev.
(info from Stalinin kiusa, Himmlerin täi (Nuisance of Stalin, Louse of Himmler) by Ohto Manninen)

Yes, it so. It is 3./7 IAP. It has fallen to village Haitermaa.
This part attacked an armored train and group of horsemen. And who has hit it?

Regards

[Juha Tompuri]

4-th February, 53 DBAP did not fly.
2го February of 53 airregiment (20 ДБ-3) bombed Pori. Coming back, bombers in area Hanko have been intercepted by 4 fighters. In result it is shot down 1 DB-3 and 1 fighter. (I know, that the Finnish fighters of losses had no).
Search for the hero with not included victory.

Could then be an underclaim.

By the way. Details of loss FIAT's 27.02.40 are interesting.
I think, that it was brought down by 29-th. 27-th - not a flying weather.
Os. Ahola, the example, did not fly.

Is the 29th claim official?
I've read about the issue at Red Stars 5, but did't know that.
I think 27th is the correct date.
IIRC It was not a bombing weather, and 1st Ltn Malmivuo started for a training flight above the clouds.
Later sounds of battle were heard (but nothing could be seen) and the Fiat came diving down.
http://users.kymp.net/ilmakilta/lentoturmat.htm
There is a pretty new book, where the incident is described with more detail:
http://users.kymp.net/ilmakilta/kaputit.pdf
I also know the both authors very well.
I can later write more about the issue if needed.

Regards, Juha


edited 150409

[Juha Tompuri]

This part attacked an armored train and group of horsemen.

Yes there was a train, I'm not sure was it armored.

And who has hit it?

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... it#p870101

Regards, Juha

[JTV]

This part attacked an armored train and group of horsemen.

Yes there was a train, I'm not sure was it armored.

Sections of railway, where Finnish armoured trains (mostly) operated during Winter War:
http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/Trains_in_Winter_War.jpg

Jarkko

[Juha Tompuri]

Thanks Jarkko.

IIRC It was not a bombing weather, and 1st Ltn Malmivuo started for a training flight above the clouds.
Later sounds of battle were heard (but nothing could be seen) and the Fiat came diving down.

According to the
http://users.kymp.net/ilmakilta/kaputit.pdf Malmivuo started to an interception mission from Lake Haukkajärvi. There were low clouds and the battle that was fought over the Utti airfield, took place over the clouds, and could not be seen from the ground. 13.52 o'clock the Fiat came down at a steep dive at Mankki, 3,5km NE from the Utti airfield. Possibly the pilot had ben hit.
The enemy planes are mentioned to have been of type I-153 and I-16.

Regards, Juha