Finnish Air Force claims and losses (fighter squadrons)

[Juha Tompuri]

Simply these victories are gained by pilots LLv 14. Certainly, in general the list of victories they remain.

There were finnish fighters also at other units / other fighter units than LeR 2 (Lentorykmentti = Aviation Regiment 2)

I simply wanted to show mirekw, that "playing" with figures it is possible to achieve any desirable result.

I'm not interested in playing with the figures, and as I mentioned, I found the Mirek calculations basically OK.

For example, Ivakin's I-15bis on the Soviet data it is damaged by antiaircraft fire above Kotka.
And Puhakka's this victory has not been included. Therefore it too can be removed from the list.

Ivakin?
Do you mean Ivanov, shot down 27th Feb-40 according to the Soviet sources?

Sorry. It I a mistake. Correct date - 26.02.40, a correct surname - Ivakin

Sadly I don't have the SIH 27 book, but at Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 by Bruun, Puhakka reports to have damaged ("savuamaan" = smoke coming) a I-15.

Victory official. On the Soviet data 12 I-153 13 IAP conducted fight with 3 Fiat's and 3 Fokker's and have shot down all Fiat's and 1 Fokker's. The Soviet fighters accompanied DB-3, bombing Kouvola.

I was not absolutely right, concerning non-flying weather 27.02.40.
In 13.30-13.34 (on Finnish time 12.30-12.35) twenty eight SB 31 SBAP bombed a congestion of echelons in Kouvola. They were protected with 17 fighters 149 IAP. In area Hamina a closing squadron 31 SBAP tried to attack three fighters, identified as "Gladiators". The Soviet fighters were developed for attack, and arrows of bombers have opened fire. On the Soviet data, the Finnish fighters, not accepting fight, have left in clouds.
Other air fights in this area was not this day, though in area Vilajoki - Karis the fighters of Air Forces Baltic Fleet rendered assault impacts much flied.

Thans for the info, but I still have doubts over the Soviet date.

I think here all simply. Mistakes are not present neither in Soviet, nor in the Finnish documents. Probably, the Soviet pilots simply have not understood, that have shot down FIAT, therefore and have not reported on it. A casual bullet...

Yes, that (a Soviet underclaim) sounds quite probable.
But that then leads to a overclaim two days after that.

Regards, Juha

[John T]

Slona 76 - I do not know to treat you still seriously or not, but you for sure are not know the meaning of word “crushed”. You make strange mistake (not professional as for me), or you are not aware this: “Soviet Air Force for over 100 days of Winter War could not to crushed very small and very weak power of FAF”. Having over FAF’s about 20 fold superiority in planes VVS RKKA and VVS KBF never could fully destroyed/crushed any kind of FAF air units.

Second, the same was with Finns main warships, which were never serious damaged despites hundreds sorties done by Soviet strong aviation.

Probably you want to believe that FAF was equal enemy for VVS - but it is not true. Not in such huge disproportion of power.
Please do not write such silly or stupid remarks.
Soviet air power during Winter War was very, very ineffective in any kind of comparison. No comments to this. This is obvious.

Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski

First I like to point out the futility of this debate. Starting to define Efficency looks to me as more of a matter of nationalistic proaganda rather than air historical research.

But as a comparison I would like to point to the problems to destroy an air force operating on skis and proper dispersed.
Given the correlation of forces betwen the Norwegian Air force and German Luftwaffe after April 9 1940 show how suprisingly resiliant those few Norwegian airplanes operating south of Trondheim where. And to make any serious claim of LW's lacking efficiency out of that is obviously not consistent with common sense.

just some food for thoughts.

Cheers
/John T

[Slon-76]

You have write this openly I need to be pleased only to a brilliant victory of the Soviet pilots, who have crushed during Winter war the Finnish Air Forces.

The facts are following:
30.11.39 - FAF had 36 D.XXU + 10 Bulldogs IV
1.04.40, FAF had 24 D.XXI, 20 + 3 overhauled G.50, 22+1 MS.406, 10 Hurricanes and 15 +2 Brewster B.239, which did not fight in WW. Gladiators had been removed to other units being replaced by G.50 in end of February 1940.
About 76 fighters were in FAF air power in April 1940. What you are talking about, when you talking about crushed aviation.

Dear Mirek!
Personally for you I once again shall explain. (it is possible you simply do not understand my bad English)
I COULD THINK, that the Soviet Air Forces have crushed the Finnish Air Forces IF used for the proof of the correctness YOUR method.
That is,
a) would count victories all damages put by the Finnish Air Forces.
b) would count doubtful the Finnish documents contradicting Soviet.
I SO DO NOT THINK!!!!!!
If to speak simply, I think your approach to a question vicious and not objective.

“But at such approach senselessly to speak about fighting efficiency of fighters.”

Slon76 you again do not understand the meaning the word efficiency, similar like crushed.
One meaning is input towards output.
1. The amount of sorties and the amount of destroyed planes. Soviet fighters (land + navy) had done all 50.407 sorties and had, as you wish, destroyed with total devastating effect FAF "all its air force" of 22 (21 FAF and 1 F.19) fighters. So for 1 total crushed enemy fighter Soviet had to do 2291 sorties.

2. According your clever opinion this crushed enemy fighters had done 3486 sorties up the end of war and destroyed 15 or just now 12 (in May 2009 you will going still down to reduced FAF claims to only 5-6, I suppose?).
So for 1 total crushed Soviet fighter Finns they had to done 232 sorties for 15 destroyed, or 290 sorties for 12 destroyed.

The both side fighters efficiency is towards this fact evident. Sloan 76 you are again against hard fact.

1. I already about three years believe, that the Finnish Air Forces have shot down 15 Soviet fighters. I mean ALL Finnish Air Forces (not only LeR-2), including F19 as they were at war on the side of Finland.
2. Now about your facts. Want once again " to play in figures " - please. But I at once speak you, that it - full nonsense. Your calculations can be turned easily other side.
Well for example. On 50407 starts the Soviet fighters have lost in fights with the Finnish fighters of 15 machines (can count even concerning 48 shot down). Parity 1 loss on 3660 starts. The Finnish fighters on 3486 starts have lost in fights at least 20 fighters. Parity 1 loss on 174 starts. It - the fact! You with it agree? You consider its objective? Or your statistics operates only concerning the Finnish Air Forces? Let's continue further these senseless comparisons?
Your problem that you look at Winter war as on a turn of air fights. It - a mistake! For the Finnish fighters of a task of air defence were main, for Soviet - only " one of many "...

BTW. There are not calculated F.19 fighters sorties and its 1 fighter victory (1 I-15bis from 145 IAP on 17.01.40) gained during 464 sorties had done in WW - this victory does not existing in your list?

There was no this victory...

I in general your treatment of this order am rather curious: You sincerely believe, what by the main task of the Finnish fighters was to be hidden from the Soviet fighters? To not be them destroyed?

Yes I think so.

It is sad... By the main task of the Finnish fighters it was to not be hidden from the Soviet fighters, and to destroy the Soviet bombers. In process of forces. And they performed this work rather adequately.

The main goal was to reduce owe losses inflicted by enemy fighters deliberatly as much as possible to evade combats with I-16, I-153, I-15bis. Next was to make as much as possible destruction to Soviet bombers and reccon forces. This strategy was very well conduced and let FAF to minimize own fighter losses. The official FAF’s orders are confirming this strategy – “hit and run”. Slon you do not know about this? Strange!!!

I cannot know about how you to yourselves represent tasks of the Finnish fighters. You are not so known in the world. Especially you put them " from foots on a head ". What in it strange?

Whether will complicate you to give an example " fully destroyed/crushed " any Air Forces, not accompanied with full occupation of the country?

Soviet Union had lost the Winter War despite overwhelming superiority. It is evident, and you are rejecting this idea wanting to proof that Soviet VVS had won the battle.

Second. Luftwaffe power was smashed by constant Allied air power attacks on the ground, in air in 1944-45. Germans could not do almost nothing against them having such fighters like Me 262. It was happened before fall of Berlin. Disproportion in amount of fighters was not so high as it was in Winter War. Quality was even higher counting Me 262.

You and have not answered my question. But you have recollected time Germans... Germans too forced down many bombers of allies. Then it is less, but forced down up to the end of war (including Russian). And so?
The Finnish fighters did not allow the Soviet bombers to bomb the purposes? Know examples?
At Finns it was not simple forces for this purpose! As though it is brave they did not fight.

Slon 76. You are very deeply want to bank/twist the true to your personal and onside vision of history. Second you are lacking: precision, distance in your researches hiding and manipulating the evident fact and figures.

I am afraid, you have too superficial and one-sided representation about Winter war in air to draw such conclusions.

This is not personal, but I hate, when one man is against the evident facts and figures. This is against the true.

Bravo. Only this principle is necessary for applying and to itself too.


P.S. As I already spoke, I know a history of Winter war not worse you. Therefore, please, answer in essence. It is not necessary the general common data...

Regards,

[Slon-76]

Sadly I don't have the SIH 27 book, but at Hävittäjälentolaivue 26 by Bruun, Puhakka reports to have damaged ("savuamaan" = smoke coming) a I-15.

In SIH 27 same data. For this reason I have attributed this plane to victories of the Finnish Air Forces. Though one more damaged I-15 has made a successful emergency landing in the territory (gasoline was terminated). But a line of the reasons, I think, that Ivakin nevertheless is shot down by the Finnish fighter.Nevertheless, this victory over the official list of victories of the Finnish Air Forces is not included.

Victory official. On the Soviet data 12 I-153 13 IAP conducted fight with 3 Fiat's and 3 Fokker's and have shot down all Fiat's and 1 Fokker's. The Soviet fighters accompanied DB-3, bombing Kouvola.

Yes, that (a Soviet underclaim) sounds quite probable.
But that then leads to a overclaim two days after that.

Well it not unique time, you know...

Regards,

[Harri]

Information on Finnish fighter tactics during the WInter War can be found from here (Fighter Tactics Academy by Commander of the Finnish Air Force Maj.Gen. Jarmo Lindberg, http://www.mil.fi/perustietoa/henkiloit ... ndberg.dsp ):

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/fintac-3.htm

(This article on fighter tactics is written by a former Commander of the Finnish Air Force Lt.Gen. Heikki Nikunen, http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/index.php?id=172 )

[Esa K]

Hi all

Interesting thread.

A book on the topic; on the captured and into Finnish use put Soviet planes, maybe this title below can contain something usable:

Haapanen, Atso: Punatähdestä hakaristiin, Tampere 2008 (or 2009?) ISBN: 978-952-5026-78-8
http://www.apali.fi/kauppa/product_details.php?p=262

The title translates to: From red star to swastika. Have not read it, yet, so dont know exactly what it contains, but maybe there is some bits and pieces of info to consider


Best regards

Esa K

[kari lumppio]

Hallo!

Perhaps a related question is allowed as we now have an expert on the forum from which to ask.

Many years ago I built model of I-16 Type 5 from Winter War. It has big (red) number "228" on fin. Numbers were bordered with light colour in the wreck photo - I chose silver. I am not sure this was a Type 5, but built it as one - with canopy.

The "228" has been attributed to vänrikki Erkki Ilveskorpi by some sources. His only I-16 claim is at Muolaa December 23rd, 1939. Additionally, in an on-line interview 19 IAP pilot (name forgotten) mentioned that they had big red tactical numbers on fin. All this from memory.

Could the "228" be from 19 IAP? It would be nice to know from which regiment this plane was from.


Cheers,
Kari

[Slon-76]

Could the "228" be from 19 IAP? It would be nice to know from which regiment this plane was from.

D ue to your question has noticed one more mistake in the list.
I-16 "228" is a machine from 4/68 IAP. It is shot down 23.12.39. I have wrongly written Arhipov, correctly a surname - Kovalkov.

[Esa K]

Hi again

A small fast addendum

Checked some days ago in the old SIH 7, from 1977, on captured Soviet planes, should have wrote it down, but if I now remember correct, on 24/12 1939 a Soviet I-15 or was it I-153 was found (almost?) intact at lake Oulunjärvi, it had, again if I remember it correct from the picture in the book, the number 13 painted on. Any idea what unit it was from, and the circumstances around its landing on the ice?

again

Best regards

Esa K

[Slon-76]

Checked some days ago in the old SIH 7, from 1977, on captured Soviet planes, should have wrote it down, but if I now remember correct, on 24/12 1939 a Soviet I-15 or was it I-153 was found (almost?) intact at lake Oulunjärvi, it had, again if I remember it correct from the picture in the book, the number 13 painted on. Any idea what unit it was from, and the circumstances around its landing on the ice?

It I-15бис # 4616 from structure 4/19 IAP, the pilot - lieutenant J.I.Andreev. Has not returned from fighting flight 24.12.39. Andreev twice this day lost orientation, in the territory, second time - on Finnish once sat.

[mirekw]

Dear Mirek!
Personally for you I once again shall explain. (it is possible you simply do not understand my bad English)
I COULD THINK, that the Soviet Air Forces have crushed the Finnish Air Forces IF used for the proof of the correctness YOUR method.
That is,
a) would count victories all damages put by the Finnish Air Forces.
b) would count doubtful the Finnish documents contradicting Soviet.
I SO DO NOT THINK!!!!!!
If to speak simply, I think your approach to a question vicious and not objective.

Dear Slon76
Ad a). Yes I do so. According my style and fashion of researching and writing about these materials I always put such data: total destroyed and damaged planes too, also if it possible claimed victories. It is obvious for me and standard to present the both side as much as possible. Such attitude is easy to check, for example by reading my materials about air combats (sorry but most of them are in Polish, concerning WW). Small part of them concern also subject of Winter War (like the Defeat of Gladiators about 29.02.40). It means both side not only FAF but also VVS RKKA.

Ad. B) It is depends. I have read many, many different document, reports books, memories etc from many sides. I can not say this that all these stuff are full true, as all is total false/”nothing”. Part of them are colorized, second are semi-true, other are fantastic – depends.
When you look at them from the distance and from both side something similar to the true then will surface. I have learned to read many documents with sceptical distance many years ago – especially those written for superiors. So there are not all written in it a true. Some information coming from other sources, like memories or enemy reports, others reports. Confrontation of such material it is good way to see the true. No side is superior to opposite one.

If you talking about Soviet documents (reading them quite much) they had very often put not true, not full data, something colorized own success, minimalism enemy side efforts and success. Such similar you can say about other countries to like Polish one or German.

In my last article (not printed yet) I had spend much time to analyse the victory claims of one of Polish Bofors 40 mm A/A battery fighting in IX 1939. I had know its commander and one of his subordinates (commander of one gun). This battery had claimed 24 shot down planes LW planes in IX 39 and after matching claimed victories by Polish side with German sources (taken from their documents) I can just say this battery had total destroyed 6-8 German planes (over 60% of damage), next similar amount only damaged. This is all and also quite many, but no 24 destroyed planes as some Polish sources/authors want to see. Then whole damaged and destroyed planes are put in one long table (day, hour of loss and also % of damage – even 10% of planes damages; the names of crews only: killed or wounded). Sorry it is need to present all success attained by this unit even small. One important thing surface in such data. In 2 cases, in small damaged LW (5-10%) planes were killed 2 flyers. It is also loss, despite the both bombers were not destroyed.
I know several cases, when plane was very slightly damaged, but pilot wounded and next landed on own airfield /or behind own lines. After such landing he died of wound. For you it will be no victory – plane was later very fast repaired. No reason to give the enemy such victory. I think about this it is a shot down/ hit plane and killed pilot. It was success for the enemy. Slon76 for you machine are still more important then human or personal losses. OK it is up to you, but not for me.

1. I already about three years believe, that the Finnish Air Forces have shot down 15 Soviet fighters. I mean ALL Finnish Air Forces (not only LeR-2), including F19 as they were at war on the side of Finland.
2. Now about your facts. Want once again " to play in figures " - please. But I at once speak you, that it - full nonsense. Your calculations can be turned easily other side.
Well for example. On 50407 starts the Soviet fighters have lost in fights with the Finnish fighters of 15 machines (can count even concerning 48 shot down). Parity 1 loss on 3660 starts. The Finnish fighters on 3486 starts have lost in fights at least 20 fighters. Parity 1 loss on 174 starts. It - the fact! You with it agree? You consider its objective? Or your statistics operates only concerning the Finnish Air Forces? Let's continue further these senseless comparisons?
Your problem that you look at Winter war as on a turn of air fights. It - a mistake! For the Finnish fighters of a task of air defence were main, for Soviet - only " one of many "...

15 total losses are you silly again?!?? This is false analysing, similar done like in Soviet time era like during Brezniev time!

Slon 76 - you love to play figures and this is playing on not 100% true but semi-true again.
You may compare 50.407 sorties/starts but to general total losses sustained from any kind of reason (not only after air combat).
Having data for VVS KBF (RS.5 pp. 178-182) you will get such statistic: 10.141 sorties/starts during this war. There were lost total 35 fighters of VVS KBF, so it is about 290 sorties to one lost fighter from all reasons.

BTW. You are not supply full data of losses concerning Soviet fighters (land of course, navy is well know from two books). There are lacking in your statistic such thing like MIA fighters, plus lost from non-combat reasons.You are not objective.

Let’s try to set up such land fighters losses. Speculating about ratio of losses among Soviet land fighters I take similar ratio losses from navy to match to land aviation.

40.266:290 = about 139 lost planes. Probably land VVS had lost next about 120-140 fighters from all reason (combat, non-combats) during Winter War, including theses total destroyed by Finns fighters.

Total losses of Soviet fighters could be calculated from minimum circa 150 to maximum circa 180-190 fighters written of from all reason.
It means that Soviet fighters had total lost about 8-10% of used fighters during Winter War from all reason: rather less from combat (fighter, A/A fire), more from weather or low training of pilots. This is of course speculation data analyse.

Regards,
mw

[Slon-76]

Dear Mirek!
Personally for you I once again shall explain. (it is possible you simply do not understand my bad English)
I COULD THINK, that the Soviet Air Forces have crushed the Finnish Air Forces IF used for the proof of the correctness YOUR method.
That is,
a) would count victories all damages put by the Finnish Air Forces.
b) would count doubtful the Finnish documents contradicting Soviet.
I SO DO NOT THINK!!!!!!
If to speak simply, I think your approach to a question vicious and not objective.

Dear Slon76
Ad a). Yes I do so. According my style and fashion of researching and writing about these materials I always put such data: total destroyed and damaged planes too, also if it possible claimed victories. It is obvious for me and standard to present the both side as much as possible. Such attitude is easy to check, for example by reading my materials about air combats (sorry but most of them are in Polish, concerning WW). Small part of them concern also subject of Winter War (like the Defeat of Gladiators about 29.02.40). It means both side not only FAF but also VVS RKKA.

Dear Mirek!
You with surprising obstinacy ignore my questions!
What criterion of damages of the plane, that it became "victory"? Or any damage is "victory"?
Here for example. 26.02.40 Vanr. Linnamaa has fired DB-3. To him have included a "probable / presumable" victory. Under the Soviet documents (a different level!) it there were bombers from 85-th airshelf which all have returned, and in two of them was on 2-3 holes. It is a victory? In fact planes are formally damaged. Holes need to be closed up... Only it is not necessary to speak, that ALL Soviet documents lie.
And still. And you know the data on damages of the Finnish planes? Not only what in VL were sent, and about all damages. Where these data are published?
I with interest would esteem your work on fight 29.02.40. Your conclusions are extremely interesting to me. Why Finns have sufferred such severe defeat? I am confident, that you have found to this phenomenon a worthy explanation.

Ad. B) ….

If you talking about Soviet documents (reading them quite much) they had very often put not true, not full data, something colorized own success, minimalism enemy side efforts and success. Such similar you can say about other countries to like Polish one or German.

If you such expert on the Soviet documents, then should know what to hide loss basically very difficultly. At work with documents of different "departments", such "cunnings" are easily calculated. Also forgive, but I strongly doubt, that you saw many the Soviet documents on Winter war.

I know several cases, when plane was very slightly damaged, but pilot wounded and next landed on own airfield /or behind own lines. After such landing he died of wound. For you it will be no victory – plane was later very fast repaired. No reason to give the enemy such victory. I think about this it is a shot down/ hit plane and killed pilot. It was success for the enemy. Slon76 for you machine are still more important then human or personal losses. OK it is up to you, but not for me.

You have again led speech about " universal practice ".
You know such episodes of the Soviet Air Forces in Winter war? I don't know. I know one more precisely, but the Finnish Air Forces have no to it any attitude.
And as a whole we here, in my opinion, speak not about human losses.

15 total losses are you silly again?!?? This is false analysing, similar done like in Soviet time era like during Brezniev time!

БЛИН!
THE QUESTION IS REALLY DESTROYED SOVIET FIGHTERS IN FIGHTS WITH THE FINNISH FIGHTERS! ONLY ABOUT THEM!!!!
Finish empty chatter! If you have certificates, that my analysis - false, show. On the concrete examples confirmed with both sides. Though I suspect, that you again "will not notice" my request.

Slon 76 - you love to play figures and this is playing on not 100% true but semi-true again.
You may compare 50.407 sorties/starts but to general total losses sustained from any kind of reason (not only after air combat).

These calculations - subjective nonsense. Want - give on all Soviet Air Forces we shall consider. For simplicity we shall take equally 106 thousand fighting flights. Also we shall divide them into losses. Let though 700 Soviet planes (for cleanliness of experiment). We receive 1 loss on 151 flights. At the Finnish Air Forces it will be 89-90 flights on loss.
Also what from that? Let's believe, that Finns were at war twice worse?
Such "mathematics" has the right to a life only under absolutely equal conditions for both sides. In our case it not so, therefore and calculations such - a senseless heap of figures.

BTW. You are not supply full data of losses concerning Soviet fighters (land of course, navy is well know from two books). There are lacking in your statistic such thing like MIA fighters, plus lost from non-combat reasons.You are not objective.

THE QUESTION IS REALLY DESTROYED SOVIET FIGHTERS IN FIGHTS WITH THE FINNISH FIGHTERS! ONLY ABOUT THEM!!!!
The question was about victories of the Finnish fighters. At what here noncombat losses of the Soviet Air Forces? MIA - are specified in the list. What can be the Finnish victories. Read more Attentively

Let’s try to set up such land fighters losses. Speculating about ratio of losses among Soviet land fighters I take similar ratio losses from navy to match to land aviation.

40.266:290 = about 139 lost planes. Probably land VVS had lost next about 120-140 fighters from all reason (combat, non-combats) during Winter War, including theses total destroyed by Finns fighters.

Total losses of Soviet fighters could be calculated from minimum circa 150 to maximum circa 180-190 fighters written of from all reason.
It means that Soviet fighters had total lost about 8-10% of used fighters during Winter War from all reason: rather less from combat (fighter, A/A fire), more from weather or low training of pilots. This is of course speculation data analyse.

On a total after Winter war it has been written off 131 fighter (It without taking into account the Air Forces of fleet), including 41 I-15bis, 41 I-16, 49 I-153. From them 77 - combat losses. But I think, that these figures are underestimated approximately on 5-10 %.
I.e. in the estimations of the general losses of the Soviet fighters you are right (165-185 planes). It will make 17-18 % from initial number of fighters, or 13-14 % to number on 13.03.40. On the Finnish fighters this ratio will be accordingly 68% and 40%.

Regards,

[Esa K]

It I-15бис # 4616 from structure 4/19 IAP, the pilot - lieutenant J.I.Andreev. Has not returned from fighting flight 24.12.39. Andreev twice this day lost orientation, in the territory, second time - on Finnish once sat.

Thanks Slon-76 for this, and a further question, what happened to the pilot, lieutenant J.I.Andreev? Beacame POW? Or, managed to walk back to own lines? Or, KIA? Or, still MIA?

And A correction, I remembereed a bit wrong, the plane had not number "13" painted on, it was number "173".


Best regards

Esa K

[Slon-76]

Thanks Slon-76 for this, and a further question, what happened to the pilot, lieutenant J.I.Andreev? Beacame POW? Or, managed to walk back to own lines? Or, KIA? Or, still MIA?

Earlier was considered, that he was shot (has committed suicide). But Carl Geust spoke me, that he saw surname Andreev in the list POW.

[patrik.possi]

Thanks Slon-76 for this, and a further question, what happened to the pilot, lieutenant J.I.Andreev? Beacame POW? Or, managed to walk back to own lines? Or, KIA? Or, still MIA?

Earlier was considered, that he was shot (has committed suicide). But Carl Geust spoke me, that he saw surname Andreev in the list POW.

What i can see he is not among the POW who died during captivity during the winterwar, so if he was a POW we must find other reasons for his disappearance.

http://kronos.narc.fi/wwar/wwar.html