Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

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antero59
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Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by antero59 » 04 Apr 2009 13:51

I use these sources again:
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista

From 1st of June 1944 to 30th of July 1944

1. Ilmari Juutilainen - 35 killings ( 25 fighters)
2. Hans Wind - 34 killings ( 24 fighters) * wounded
3. Olavi Puro -25 ½ killings ( 20 fighters)
4. Eino Luukkanen - 22 killings ( 10 fighters)
5. Emil Vesa - 20 killings ( 9 fighters)
6. Jorma Saarinen - 18 killings (12 fighters) * killed
7. Nils Katajainen -16 killings (8 fighters) * wounded
8. Tapio Järvi - 16 killings (2 fighters)
9. Klaus Alakoski -14 killings (4 fighters)
10. Kyösti Karhila- 12 ( 8 fighters)
11.Olli Puhakka- 12 (7 fighters)

Top eleven total 224 ½ killings of 513 (24th, 26 th, 28th, 32nd and 34 th squadron) = 43,8%

24th and 34th squadrons operated in Karelian Isthmus ( 26th back with Brewster's). 28th and 32nd with older fighters were in Karelia, north from Lake Onega. 28th fighter-squadron got it first Me-109-G fighters late june 44.


http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_L ... tappioista

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Topspeed
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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Topspeed » 13 Apr 2009 16:10

Tuohan ei pidä lainkaan paikkaansa.

Muistaakseni ylik Halonenkin ampui tusinan verran tuossa ajanjaksossa ( tarkistin 13 kpl ).

Itse todistin erään maavoimien veteraanin kertoman tarinan mersun ampumista 6:sta IL-2:sta. Kuuluivat Kyösti Karhilan saaliiseen ( eli 5 lisää hänelle...kuudes pääsi karkuun kun Kössiltä lopui patit ).

Karhilan saldo on siis 43 1/3 yhteensä.

----


Sorry...Karhila shot 5 IL-2:s in early July 1944 ( in 3 minutes ).In addition to the 12 previously confirmed.
Sergeant Halonen shot at least 13.

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Topspeed
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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Topspeed » 13 Apr 2009 17:52

The english term for downing a plane is kill.

So..Karhila had 5 IL-2 kills in early July.

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antero59
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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by antero59 » 14 Apr 2009 14:36

Where are souces of Karhila and the others? I've heard radio programm where Jukka Kemppinen asked Karhila (his uncle) about these killings and they talked about 5 shut down IL-2's in summer 1944 but i haven't found any confirmed souces about that.

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by antero59 » 14 Apr 2009 14:41

Sgt. Eero Halonen shut down 16 aircraft in june-july 1944. That must be correct by these sources.

1. Ilmari Juutilainen - 35 killings ( 25 fighters)
2. Hans Wind - 34 killings ( 24 fighters) * wounded
3. Olavi Puro -25 ½ killings ( 20 fighters)
4. Eino Luukkanen - 22 killings ( 10 fighters)
5. Emil Vesa - 20 killings ( 9 fighters)
6. Jorma Saarinen - 18 killings (12 fighters) * killed
7. Eero Halonen - 16 (12 fighters)
7. Nils Katajainen -16 killings (8 fighters) * wounded
7. Tapio Järvi - 16 killings (2 fighters)
10. Klaus Alakoski -14 killings (4 fighters)
11. Kyösti Karhila- 12 ( 8 fighters)
12.Olli Puhakka- 12 (7 fighters)
Last edited by antero59 on 14 Apr 2009 17:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Topspeed
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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Topspeed » 14 Apr 2009 16:29

antero59 wrote:Where are souces of Karhila and the others? I've heard radio programm where Jukka Kemppinen asked Karhila (his uncle) about these killings and they talked about 5 shut down IL-2's in summer 1944 but i haven't found any confirmed souces about that.
I just confirmed it to you. I was confirmed by a veteran who saw it all ( an infantry soldier in a hospital 18 years ago ). Took me 18 years to find out who the pilot was. I told Kössi about it and he said all detail are a 100 % match. Case closed.

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antero59
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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by antero59 » 14 Apr 2009 17:08

However there ain't any official documents showing that Karhila shut down 5 IL-2's during one single day, that's why i haven't counted down these numbers. I just wonder why Karhila didn't told anything about these Stormoviks to his unit.

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Mangrove » 14 Apr 2009 17:16

antero59 wrote:However there ain't any official documents showing that Karhila shut down 5 IL-2's during one single day, that's why i haven't counted down these numbers. I just wonder why Karhila didn't told anything about these Stormoviks to his unit.
Did you visit the National Archive or what is you source?

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by antero59 » 14 Apr 2009 17:41

Martti Kujansuu wrote:
Did you visit the National Archive or what is you source?
I use these souces found from Wikipedia:

* Keskinen, Kalevi; Stenman, Kari: Suomen ilmavoimien historia 17 – Lentorykmentti 2. Espoo: Kari Stenman, 2001. ISBN 951-98751-0-7.
* Keskinen, Kalevi; Stenman, Kari: Suomen ilmavoimien historia 18 – Lentorykmentti 3. Espoo: Kari Stenman, 2001. ISBN 951-98751-1-5.

However if you got more reliable souces i'd be pleased to check them of course. I'm not arguing that Keskinen & Stenman have said to last word of this issue. E.g case Karhila is interesting. His single day "killing" - 5 Sturmovik's - were not found in my source. Karhila also have mentioned that his last claim of Contunuation War war also not marked coz he was moved to another unit and he forgot to mention about that case ( propably his wingman could confirm that "killing").

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Topspeed » 16 Apr 2009 09:18

antero59 wrote:However there ain't any official documents showing that Karhila shut down 5 IL-2's during one single day, that's why i haven't counted down these numbers. I just wonder why Karhila didn't told anything about these Stormoviks to his unit.
Of course not, because until now there was no one to witness it. Soviet archive shows 11 downed IL-2:s that day in Karelia.

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by tramonte » 16 Mar 2021 19:59

Topspeed wrote:
16 Apr 2009 09:18
antero59 wrote:However there ain't any official documents showing that Karhila shut down 5 IL-2's during one single day, that's why i haven't counted down these numbers. I just wonder why Karhila didn't told anything about these Stormoviks to his unit.
Of course not, because until now there was no one to witness it. Soviet archive shows 11 downed IL-2:s that day in Karelia.
But not 3 Pe-2 bombers claimed by Lehtovaara and not La-5 claimed by Nuorala. Nor shut Wind down 2 Pe-2s, Lehtovaara 2 Pe-2s and Nuorala 2 Pe-2s during 19 June 1944. In fact it seems to be that only Lyly might have had true bomber air victories with his 2 Il-4 claims. Only Pe-2 13th Air Army lost that day was shut down by AA units in Simola.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by tramonte » 09 Jun 2021 09:45

When it comes to claims of Hans Wind we can found very many highly questionable claims. For instance he claimed amazing 4 Pe-2s during one combat mission in 13 June 1944. Soviet data is debunking his claims. No Pe-2 losses of 276 BAD or VVS KBF, however one captured Pe-2 crew member according Finnish sources in 13 June 44.

Wind like several other Finnish pilots claimed bombers in 20 June 44 (Juutilainen 2 Il-4s). But Soviet records are not confirming a single bomber losses and bomber crew member losses during that day. (however two Il-4 crewn members reported missing in 21 June when Finns and Germans claimed no bombers at all).

If and when we go through air combat data of 1943-44 we can easily find both Wind and Juutilainen having very questionable air victory claims just like other Finnish pilots have had.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 09 Jun 2021 12:23

On 13 June 1944 six Finnish Messerschmitts attacked 30 Soviet bombers covered by 20 fighters. Finns claimed one Airacobra and seven Pe-2's of which Wind claimed four. In his report Wind tells that of one Pe-2 the left wing broke off. So we have seven witnessed Pe-2 claims but no Russian losses. As the battle took place near Finnish lines, it would be interesting if it was witnessed also from ground. (Finnish Air Force 1944 book)

In his memoirs from 1984 Wind tells that Finns were returning from a reconnaissance mission, could surprise the enemy and then dive away.

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by tramonte » 09 Jun 2021 13:01

Only question mark in 13 June 44 is the captured crew member of Pe-2 aicraft:

Medvedev, Vasili. 58 BAP 13.06.1944 MIA. Captured in Liikola according Finnish sources. Mentioned also in 276 BAD daily report as "missing in action" .

Story itself is fascinating. Could it be possible to capture aircrew soldier without shooting down aircraft? If Wind's report is correct the whole crew should have died or at least parachuted. But Soviet report had no mention of downed Pe-2 and parachuted crew. This can be explained only that aircraft would have made emergency landing to no man's land and only Medvedev was lost, but aircraft not destroyed but damaged.

His three other Pe-2 claims can't be confirmed by daily reports and personal loss reports of bomber divisions. Nor is crew member loss report of 13 VA suggesting any other bombers using smaller units had lost men or aircraft.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

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Re: Best finnish aces - june/july 1944

Post by Topspeed » 10 Jun 2021 06:24

tramonte wrote:
09 Jun 2021 09:45
When it comes to claims of Hans Wind we can found very many highly questionable claims. For instance he claimed amazing 4 Pe-2s during one combat mission in 13 June 1944. Soviet data is debunking his claims. No Pe-2 losses of 276 BAD or VVS KBF, however one captured Pe-2 crew member according Finnish sources in 13 June 44.

Wind like several other Finnish pilots claimed bombers in 20 June 44 (Juutilainen 2 Il-4s). But Soviet records are not confirming a single bomber losses and bomber crew member losses during that day. (however two Il-4 crewn members reported missing in 21 June when Finns and Germans claimed no bombers at all).

If and when we go through air combat data of 1943-44 we can easily find both Wind and Juutilainen having very questionable air victory claims just like other Finnish pilots have had.
I think the crew member just jumped to defect...no aircraft cannot have been lost....according to soviet verified data ( politruks always checked them ).

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