F19 claims and losses

[Slon-76]

Some notes to this
The Swede's claimed three fighters destroyed on the ground and one in the air on January 12.

I spoke about REAL successes of Swedes.

To determine air force efficiency you have to look at the objectives for each side.
After the 12:th and for most of January,Swedish fighters primary mission where recon.

January 24 the order to provide Air defence of the cities Kemi - Tornio - Oulo(Uleåborg)
February 1 Rovaniemi is added to the list.

Very true remark. As far as I know, Swedes arrived to Finland with rather arrogant plans. Including, meaning air support of a land forces. And in this connection it is very curious, than such reassessment of priorities for F19 speaks? In fact by and large on one of the mentioned below points with 12-th till 24th January of large strikes was not.
I believe, that change of priorities is connected to the general transition to defense of the Finnish armies on direction Salla. And it is possible and because of high losses at actions above a front line. But it means, that Swedes have completely lost for an active phase of the struggle in Finland!

This means F19 where spread out like
Kemijärvi, Posio, Vaala 1 Fighter EACH
Rovaniemi 2-4 fighters
Uleåborg 2 fighter
And if possible one at Veitsiluoto.
The remaing fighters where dedicated to recce missions.

This made sense as Soviet Bomber formation most oftenly just turned back when encountering a single fighter.
(and as the Gladiators had to have height advantage to get near the modern Soviet bombers so the Swedes could not chase after a turning formation)

IMHO, will more worthlessly dispose of the Swedish group it was impossible! To cover something with such forces - it is impossible. As in a role of interceptors you have estimated opportunities of Gladiators more than precisely.
"Fist" from 8-10 fighters - appreciable force to measures of the given site of front. As I-15bis and I-16 type 5 essentially did not surpass Gladiators under flight characteristics. But the Finnish command has preferred to break "fist" into separate "fingers" which by definition could not influence seriously struggle in air. In result at F19 smallest "efficiency" among the Finnish fighters units at optimum initial preconditions.
Frankly speaking, in a case with F19, IMHO, we have "mini-model" of all Finnish fighter aviation. Problems and mistakes same. Only in a case with F19 they have received simply grotesque forms. Interestingly, the Finnish command seriously trusted, what one fighter can protect Kemijarvi?

So comparing the Swedes defending a rather large area with around 8-10 operational Gladiators with only Kairala Air base is'nt really usefull.

I have not vainly told, that the superiority was not till January, 18. To this day in Kairala there has arrived squadron I-16 and Russian would receive the superiority in any case.

[Juha Tompuri]

Interestingly, the Finnish command seriously trusted, what one fighter can protect Kemijarvi?

Aparently the Soviet side did not know that:

This made sense as Soviet Bomber formation most oftenly just turned back when encountering a single fighter.
(and as the Gladiators had to have height advantage to get near the modern Soviet bombers so the Swedes could not chase after a turning formation)

Regards, Juha

[John T]

Some notes to this
The Swede's claimed three fighters destroyed on the ground and one in the air on January 12.

I spoke about REAL successes of Swedes.

Then Please list those, I'm serious interested

Cheers
/John T.

[Slon-76]

Interestingly, the Finnish command seriously trusted, what one fighter can protect Kemijarvi?

Aparently the Soviet side did not know that:

This made sense as Soviet Bomber formation most oftenly just turned back when encountering a single fighter.
(and as the Gladiators had to have height advantage to get near the modern Soviet bombers so the Swedes could not chase after a turning formation)

Excuse, has not understood your idea. What connection meanwhile, what the Finnish command and the Soviet command thought?

[Slon-76]

Then Please list those, I'm serious interested

I already wrote in detail somewhere in this branch. Look.
Shortly: victories F19 12/01/40 were reduced to 4 holes in a tail of one I-15bis.

[Juha Tompuri]

Sorry for not being clear enough.
What I ment is that it seems that the Soviet command wasn't aware of the Finnish/Swedish strenght at the North as:

Soviet Bomber formation most oftenly just turned back when encountering a single fighter.

Regards, Juha

[Slon-76]

Sorry for not being clear enough.
What I ment is that it seems that the Soviet command wasn't aware of the Finnish/Swedish strenght at the North as:

Soviet Bomber formation most oftenly just turned back when encountering a single fighter.

Aha, now I have understood.
Instead of trying to reflect strikes, tried "to frighten" bombers?
But agree, it would be very naive hope!
Besides the Soviet pilots be able to distinguish one fighter from ten.
In any case, dodge has failed. I continue to think, that forces F19 used worthlessly. Classical attempt " to be strong everywhere ", not having for this purpose anything.

Regards,

[Juha Tompuri]

Instead of trying to reflect strikes, tried "to frighten" bombers?
But agree, it would be very naive hope!
Besides the Soviet pilots be able to distinguish one fighter from ten.

At least according to the Swedish pilots one plane often was enough.
And the purpose of fighters (and AAA) is more to fend off the enemy planes and deny them carrying out their mision, than to shoot them down.

Classical attempt " to be strong everywhere ", not having for this purpose anything.

"Tasajako ei ole taktiikkaa" ("being equally strong everywhere, is not tactics") as we say here.

Regards, Juha

[Slon-76]

At least according to the Swedish pilots one plane often was enough.

It is a pity that Soviet about it did not know...
It is curious, when in opinion of the Swedish pilots it was possible to them?

And the purpose of fighters (and AAA) is more to fend off the enemy planes and deny them carrying out their mision, than to shoot them down.

I know it. But, if actions of the Finnish fighters have forced the Soviet command since January a significant part of starts of fighters to spend for protection of bombers actions of Swedes (pilots) in general did not excite the Soviet command. For example, Kemijarvi in February bombed 4, 6, 13, 17, 19, 21, 22, 23 and 29-th. Rovaniemi - 1, 17, 22th + some strikes of the Air Forces of 14 armies.
It is curious, that from four most "popular" purposes (Kemijarvi, Nurmes, Kontiomaki, Kajaani) the Swedish pilots covered only one. One fighter...
Finnish Blenhaims disturbed command of the Air Forces of 9 armies much more strongly.

Regards,

[Juha Tompuri]

At least according to the Swedish pilots one plane often was enough.

It is a pity that Soviet about it did not know...
It is curious, when in opinion of the Swedish pilots it was possible to them?

The Greger Falk book mentions that the Swedish pilots had repelled (torjua) 65 Soviet bombing attacks.
And as an example there was the 100340 case when a lone Gladiator (Karlsson) patrolled over Rovaniemi when 6 Soviet TB-3 planes tried to bomb the town, but turned back. One of them (Karepov?) was shot down by Karlsson after a lenghty chase South of Kemijärvi.

It is curious, that from four most "popular" purposes (Kemijarvi, Nurmes, Kontiomaki, Kajaani) the Swedish pilots covered only one. One fighter...

That's the tactics: few Swedish Gladiators were let to cover "half" the Finland while the point of ballance at Finnish AF was in the South.

Regards, Juha

[Slon-76]

The Greger Falk book mentions that the Swedish pilots had repelled (torjua) 65 Soviet bombing attacks.

You it is serious? You believe, what F19 has prevented 65 Soviet bombardments?
Or I not so have understood you?

And as an example there was the 100340 case when a lone Gladiator (Karlsson) patrolled over Rovaniemi when 6 Soviet TB-3 planes tried to bomb the town, but turned back. One of them (Karepov?) was shot down by Karlsson after a lenghty chase South of Kemijärvi.

While Karlsson had a good time shooting on Karepov's TB-3, on Kemijarvi it has been dumped 56 FAB-50 and 168 ZAB-2,5. Except for TB-3 in that area operated also 10 SB and 12 DB-3. By the way, purpose TB-3 was not Kemijarvi, and station Vika. It has received 6 FAB-250.

It is curious, that from four most "popular" purposes (Kemijarvi, Nurmes, Kontiomaki, Kajaani) the Swedish pilots covered only one. One fighter...

That's the tactics: few Swedish Gladiators were let to cover "half" the Finland while the point of ballance at Finnish AF was in the South.

Excuse, but it - not tactics. It is senseless expenditure of forces. I am confident, what exactly this tactics became the reason of that having made 460 fighting flights, the Swedish pilots have shot down only 7 bombers.(Really - it is less)
Compare to successes of "gladiators" from LLv 26. And in fact F19 operated in much more "comfortable" conditions: bombers of 9 and 14 armies did not cover fighters.
Following it is to "brilliant" tactics, it was possible 36 Finnish Fokker's to allocate on one on each large center, from Petsamo, up to Turku. And to think, that all Finland is covered from air impacts.
F19 Has not carried out the task in protection of the Finnish cities. It is not surprising, taking into account their small number. But! The decision "to smear" group has made the decision of a task in view not feasible basically!

Regards,

[mirekw]

Hi
Thanks for some information, I think that Slon has rights. When I first time met the information that 2 Gladiators had shoot from 400 m and get some hits on 2xI-15bis, I thought It was a miracle. Incredible luck!!! Wow! Such thing happened but very, very seldom.

In this case I think the translation of Soviet massage was simple wrong. They wanted to boosted their morale so read exactly this what they did want – 2 planes shot down - succes for us, did not!.

Second, yes the F.19 success was not so impressive, as they wanted to see. All 8 claimed victories in reality 4, If right remember destroyed Soviet bombers. Not so big success (one claimed DB-3 was in fact destroyed from other reason, then action of Swedish fighters.
Anyway their coming had more important morale value – not only Finns fight against Red invasion hordes. It is also count in this heavy time. Second via Sweden had come about 100 or so next combat planes, which were introduced to FAF – also important factor to FAF air power and air fighting.
Next Finns could felt too, that they did not fight alone against Red invaders, it is also important moral factor, even much more valued than real impact of F.19 Wing on Soviet aviation.

Regards,
Mirek W

[Juha Tompuri]

The Greger Falk book mentions that the Swedish pilots had repelled (torjua) 65 Soviet bombing attacks.

You it is serious? You believe, what F19 has prevented 65 Soviet bombardments?

Sorry, my typo, the number at the book is 35, not 65.
I actually know quite little about this case, and try to find out what really happened up there.
What I have written, is from the Mr. Falk (a veteran of F19) book, not my ideas or opinions.
The swedish word there is "avvärja".
That was the most detailled mention there about the Soviet bombers turning back home when meeting Swedish fighter(s).
There is also mention explaining the F19 tactics: "9-plane SB and DB formations had turned away when meeting a single Swedish fighter"

And as an example there was the 100340 case when a lone Gladiator (Karlsson) patrolled over Rovaniemi when 6 Soviet TB-3 planes tried to bomb the town, but turned back. One of them (Karepov?) was shot down by Karlsson after a lenghty chase South of Kemijärvi.

While Karlsson had a good time shooting on Karepov's TB-3, on Kemijarvi it has been dumped 56 FAB-50 and 168 ZAB-2,5. Except for TB-3 in that area operated also 10 SB and 12 DB-3. By the way, purpose TB-3 was not Kemijarvi, and station Vika. It has received 6 FAB-250.

At the Falk book (according to a POW from the plane) the bombload was mentioned to have been 3x250kg + 24x32kg.
Also it mentions that 12 Soviet bombers bombing Kemijärvi (around 14.00 o'clock) half of the planes coming from North, another half from East. The phone connection between Kemijärvi and Rovaniemi was broken, and no early warning messages got through. Then suddenly six TB-3 bombers appeared over Rovaniemi at 2000m height. Karlsson who had been patrolling over Rovaniemi attacked the formation and managed to damage one of the planes. When low on ammo (and fuel ? , JT) Karlsson landed 15.00 o'clock in order to get a new plane.
Later in the evening it was found out that the TB-3 had mad a forced landing 5km South of Kemijärvi.
At the book there is also a short translation from a Soviet book about the battle.( Fjodr Orlov: Ognennyje rejsy goluboj dvojki, 1982 , Tsheboksary)
There the target is mentioned to have been "an important railway junction, far behind the front line".
The author (one of the TB-3 pilots there) mentions heavy AAA-fire at the target area, and bombing the junction.
After that a lone Bulldog attacked against the last TB-3 which had been flying behind the rest of the formation.
Firing long bursts the Bulldog managed to slow down the Karepov plane even more, and the rest of the TB-3's so could not help it. Then three Fokkers attacked and shot the Karepov plane down in flames.
Later in the debriefing at the base two sollutions were found out in order how to prevent such losses:
-fighter escort would be needed
-no-one should leave the formation

It is curious, that from four most "popular" purposes (Kemijarvi, Nurmes, Kontiomaki, Kajaani) the Swedish pilots covered only one. One fighter...

That's the tactics: few Swedish Gladiators were let to cover "half" the Finland while the point of ballance at Finnish AF was in the South.

Excuse, but it - not tactics. It is senseless expenditure of forces. I am confident, what exactly this tactics became the reason of that having made 460 fighting flights, the Swedish pilots have shot down only 7 bombers.(Really - it is less)
Compare to successes of "gladiators" from LLv 26. And in fact F19 operated in much more "comfortable" conditions: bombers of 9 and 14 armies did not cover fighters.

As I've earlier posted, the shot down planes is not always the best way to judge the success. Also the Swedish equipment was not so good as Finnish, but on the other hand AFAIK, their experience on Gladiators was far greater than the Finnish one.

I am confident, what exactly this tactics became the reason of that having made 460 fighting flights, the Swedish pilots have shot down only 7 bombers.(Really - it is less)

Swedish ratio shot down planes / combat flights might have been little worse than Finnish, but quite much better that Soviet.
If this type comparisons are important.


Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

I must say that Slon-76 explanation is one of two hypothesis.
---------------------------------------------

2." Lost in transmission/translation"
Note that it was Finnish radio intercept.
So the message had to be deciphered(?) Translated between Russian and Finnish and the translated into Swedish.
The details why the aircrafts crashed could have been seen as less relevant for the translator who might not been that focused on who claimed kills but rather looked at it as two less enemies.

In this case I think the translation of Soviet massage was simple wrong. They wanted to boosted their morale so read exactly this what they did want – 2 planes shot down - succes for us, did not!.

Are there any sources/facts that back up that theory?

Regards, Juha

[Slon-76]

There is also mention explaining the F19 tactics: "9-plane SB and DB formations had turned away when meeting a single Swedish fighter"

Otherwise, than imaginations or dreams of the Swedish pilots, I cannot name such application. I do not know any such case.

At the Falk book (according to a POW from the plane) the bombload was mentioned to have been 3x250kg + 24x32kg.
Also it mentions that 12 Soviet bombers bombing Kemijärvi (around 14.00 o'clock) half of the planes coming from North, another half from East. The phone connection between Kemijärvi and Rovaniemi was broken, and no early warning messages got through. Then suddenly six TB-3 bombers appeared over Rovaniemi at 2000m height. Karlsson who had been patrolling over Rovaniemi attacked the formation and managed to damage one of the planes. When low on ammo (and fuel ? , JT) Karlsson landed 15.00 o'clock in order to get a new plane.
Later in the evening it was found out that the TB-3 had mad a forced landing 5km South of Kemijärvi.
At the book there is also a short translation from a Soviet book about the battle.
There the target is mentioned to have been "an important railway junction, far behind the front line".
The author (one of the TB-3 pilots there) mentions heavy AAA-fire at the target area, and bombing the junction.
After that a lone Bulldog attacked against the last TB-3 which had been flying behind the rest of the formation.
Firing long bursts the Bulldog managed to slow down the Karepov plane even more, and the rest of the TB-3's so could not help it. Then three Fokkers attacked and shot the Karepov plane down in flames.
Later in the debriefing at the base two sollutions were found out in order how to prevent such losses:
-fighter escort would be needed
-no-one should leave the formation

In general I have Fulk's book, but in Swedish I do not read, and Finnish is given hardly. Therefore I translate therefrom only the parts necessary to me.
Well as a whole this history is perfectly combined with the Soviet statement of events. TB-3 Were have fired antiaircraft fire in area Kemijarvi, and the fighter attacked when bombers became on a fighting rate on Vickа. However about any Fokkers soviet documents do not mention. Only one "Bulldog".

As I've earlier posted, the shot down planes is not always the best way to judge the success. Also the Swedish equipment was not so good as Finnish, but on the other hand AFAIK, their experience on Gladiators was far greater than the Finnish one.

Nevertheless brag of anything else Swedes cannot. Stories about regular scaring away of the Soviet bombers is 100 % of the FAIRY TALE. In Red Army the similar behaviour referred to "cowardice", and for it very strictly punished, including up to a death penalty. To Air Forces RKKA it is possible to present many claims, but regular mass cases of cowardice - not from their number.

I am confident, what exactly this tactics became the reason of that having made 460 fighting flights, the Swedish pilots have shot down only 7 bombers.(Really - it is less)

Swedish ratio shot down planes / combat flights might have been little worse than Finnish, but quite much better that Soviet.

I on your place would not be so is confident.
Struggled against Swedes 145 IAP had "ideal" parameters: 3 applications - 3 real victories.

If this type comparisons are important.

Why is not present? Tasks at LLv 26 and F19 - as a whole identical. Planes - too. In this case comparison of productivity - objective parameter of definition of efficiency.

Are there any sources/facts that back up that theory?

Though the question was not to me, but nevertheless I shall express.
Dear Juha! Well who about such things will write documents!
Simply it - the most logical explanation of strange selectivity at decoding the Soviet message.
Swedes - same people, as well as all. And to him human weaknesses, like here such are peculiar. Eventually, confidence of own superiority - one of components of high fighting spirit. And victories, let and such - very good way this confidence to impart.


Regards,