http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=30Juha wrote:If I have understood correctly, here is mentioned that the Soviet side (Ageev crew?) mentioned 8-9 Finish fighters there, of which 5 were shot down:A babelfish translation from here:Taking into account the fact that the long-range bombers completed about 3500 combat missions (into [t].[ch]. 2530 of the composition [AON]-1), but Finnish PVO (Air Defense) had available not too large level intensities of losses it is possible to recognize sufficiently to high. Actually perished each fifth dB, which participated in the war. [Koe] that must be noted, also, in Finns's address. Their descriptions of battle do not determine the precise number of participated in it “Fokkers”. But if we take as the basis of [svedenya] of Soviet side (8-9 fighters), then claim [Ermo] [Sarvanto] to six biased machines seems improbable. One additional Soviet bomber in this battle brought down another ace, Per- Eric [Sovelius]. Sum into seven machines, most likely came out in Finns taking into account the surviving machine Of [ageeva]. According to the data of contrary side during the same day Of [sovelius] brought down one additional dB. This could be only aircraft of commissioner [Gramotkin], destroyed in the first battle. Nothing it is discussed in the Finnish descriptions and the losses or the damages of the attacked side. Only in the second battle Soviet side pretends to killing of 5 fighters. And nevertheless with all “but” Finnish arithmetic does not clearly contradict reality, and if the historians of our former enemy insist on what almost all dB brought down [Sarvanto] their this, after all, matter. Summing up the sum nevertheless necessary to note: in greatest confirmed air victory of the Second World War are much more errors and deficiencies in the suffered side, than bravery and the craftsmanship of that conquered. Apparently in this consists the riddle of triple “six”, and also many other similar cases.
(Article is published in the periodical of " History of [aviatsii]". № 1 in 2000)
http://brummel.borda.ru/?1-10-0-0000003 ... 1168801577
Discussion from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=45 :
Slon wrote:As you know, one Soviet crew has returned only. And all history is written down from his words. Actually, it - same "memoirs". He could tell and about 25 Finnish fighters. To check his words there was nobody.
Juha wrote:Not he.
There were three crew members.
Slon wrote:First of all, it is ONE crew. And the commander and the navigator basically - indirect witnesses. They in general could not see the Finnish fighters. Here the main word for the machine gunner. (as he, by the way, in English refers to?)
Juha wrote:Actually there were four crew members.
there were two gunners, Skovodnyj and Shlever, who both verified the five Fokkers shot down at Utti area?
( the total claim saldo of Soviet bomber gunners at the Kuopio bombing mission that day being 8.
5 at Utti + 3 at Mikkeli)
From Soviet archives - printed at:Slon wrote:Whence data on 4 members of crew?
Pilot - Ltn Agejev
Observer - Ltn Dudurov
Gunners - Skovorodnyj and Shlever