Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

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Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 May 2009 21:55

Jorma Sarvanto and six kills in five minutes:
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/sarvan/sarvan.htm
Juha wrote:If I have understood correctly, here is mentioned that the Soviet side (Ageev crew?) mentioned 8-9 Finish fighters there, of which 5 were shot down:
Taking into account the fact that the long-range bombers completed about 3500 combat missions (into [t].[ch]. 2530 of the composition [AON]-1), but Finnish PVO (Air Defense) had available not too large level intensities of losses it is possible to recognize sufficiently to high. Actually perished each fifth dB, which participated in the war. [Koe] that must be noted, also, in Finns's address. Their descriptions of battle do not determine the precise number of participated in it “Fokkers”. But if we take as the basis of [svedenya] of Soviet side (8-9 fighters), then claim [Ermo] [Sarvanto] to six biased machines seems improbable. One additional Soviet bomber in this battle brought down another ace, Per- Eric [Sovelius]. Sum into seven machines, most likely came out in Finns taking into account the surviving machine Of [ageeva]. According to the data of contrary side during the same day Of [sovelius] brought down one additional dB. This could be only aircraft of commissioner [Gramotkin], destroyed in the first battle. Nothing it is discussed in the Finnish descriptions and the losses or the damages of the attacked side. Only in the second battle Soviet side pretends to killing of 5 fighters. And nevertheless with all “but” Finnish arithmetic does not clearly contradict reality, and if the historians of our former enemy insist on what almost all dB brought down [Sarvanto] their this, after all, matter. Summing up the sum nevertheless necessary to note: in greatest confirmed air victory of the Second World War are much more errors and deficiencies in the suffered side, than bravery and the craftsmanship of that conquered. Apparently in this consists the riddle of triple “six”, and also many other similar cases.

Miroslav Morozov
(Article is published in the periodical of " History of [aviatsii]". № 1 in 2000)
A babelfish translation from here:
http://brummel.borda.ru/?1-10-0-0000003 ... 1168801577
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=30

Discussion from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 3&start=45 :
Slon wrote:As you know, one Soviet crew has returned only. And all history is written down from his words. Actually, it - same "memoirs". He could tell and about 25 Finnish fighters. To check his words there was nobody.
Juha wrote:Not he.
There were three crew members.
Slon wrote:First of all, it is ONE crew. And the commander and the navigator basically - indirect witnesses. They in general could not see the Finnish fighters. Here the main word for the machine gunner. (as he, by the way, in English refers to?)
Juha wrote:Actually there were four crew members.
About "he":
there were two gunners, Skovodnyj and Shlever, who both verified the five Fokkers shot down at Utti area?
( the total claim saldo of Soviet bomber gunners at the Kuopio bombing mission that day being 8.
5 at Utti + 3 at Mikkeli)
Slon wrote:Whence data on 4 members of crew?
From Soviet archives - printed at:
Image
http://www.apali.fi/kauppa/product_details.php?p=263

Pilot - Ltn Agejev
Observer - Ltn Dudurov
Gunners - Skovorodnyj and Shlever

Regards, Juha

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Slon-76 » 11 May 2009 18:37

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon wrote:Whence data on 4 members of crew?
From Soviet archives - printed at:
Image
http://www.apali.fi/kauppa/product_details.php?p=263

Pilot - Ltn Agejev
Observer - Ltn Dudurov
Gunners - Skovorodnyj and Shlever
Thanks, I did not know.
However, it does not change essence of an affair. All this equally one crew. And two gunners only increase number nonexistent Fokkers.
By the way. As far as this book is good? What your impressions? How many in it of pages it is devoted to Winter war?

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 May 2009 20:09

Slon-76 wrote:Thanks, I did not know.
No problem, "Information not shared is lost", as the Forum motto goes.
Slon-76 wrote:However, it does not change essence of an affair. All this equally one crew. And two gunners only increase number nonexistent Fokkers.
Well, what I'm "after" here is that the version of 5+3 shot down Fokkers wasn't just from one man alone.

Slon-76 wrote:By the way. As far as this book is good? What your impressions? How many in it of pages it is devoted to Winter war?
The book is about just the one aerial battle. If it interests (like me) one probably finds the book good.
It is a very detailled work, nearly everything possible related to that battle has been dug up. Sort of a book that leaves one a quite empty feeling - you have read it - and it has answered to (nearly) all your questions about the issue.
The only thing I miss at the book, is the Soviet perspective of what happened. There are some info (like the list of the pilots, found by C-F Geust), and some shorter mentions, but not much.

BTW, here a photo from yesterday, from a nearby Hirvelä cemetery.
The final place of rest of 15 Soviet aviators, fallen 060140 at the battle in question:

Sn.Politruk P.I. Gramotkin
Ltn V.N. Golubev
star. P.I. Kiselev

1st Ltn V.S. Tshugunov
1st Ltn N.I. Frantsev
ml. kzv N.A. Kremnev
ml. kzv M.I. Lindarenko

1stLtn D.M. Dobolazov
ml. kzv S.S. Skorobogatyj

Ltn I.A. Kjazev
Ltn V.I. Rapota
ml. kzv N.I. Vinnik

Ltn A.S. Skosarev
1stLtn M.I. Timoshenko
ml. kzv N.I. Lukashenko


Regards, Juha
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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Slon-76 » 11 May 2009 20:34

Juha Tompuri wrote:The book is about just the one aerial battle. If it interests (like me) one probably finds the book good.
It is a very detailled work, nearly everything possible related to that battle has been dug up. Sort of a book that leaves one a quite empty feeling - you have read it - and it has answered to (nearly) all your questions about the issue.
OK. Thanks.
Juha Tompuri wrote:The only thing I miss at the book, is the Soviet perspective of what happened. There are some info (like the list of the pilots, found by C-F Geust), and some shorter mentions, but not much.
:o Why? The Soviet version of events does not interest you basically? Or the version only this concrete case?

Juha Tompuri wrote:BTW, here a photo from yesterday, from a nearby Hirvelä cemetery.
The final place of rest of 15 Soviet aviators, fallen 060140 at the battle in question:

Sn.Politruk P.I. Gramotkin
Ltn V.N. Golubev
star. P.I. Kiselev

1st Ltn V.S. Tshugunov
1st Ltn N.I. Frantsev
ml. kzv N.A. Kremnev
ml. kzv M.I. Lindarenko

1stLtn D.M. Dobolazov
ml. kzv S.S. Skorobogatyj

Ltn I.A. Kjazev
Ltn V.I. Rapota
ml. kzv N.I. Vinnik

Ltn A.S. Skosarev
1stLtn M.I. Timoshenko
ml. kzv N.I. Lukashenko
For this list too separate thanks. Now I precisely know, who from pilots was taken prisoner.
Regards

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Juha Tompuri » 11 May 2009 21:15

Slon-76 wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:The only thing I miss at the book, is the Soviet perspective of what happened. There are some info (like the list of the pilots, found by C-F Geust), and some shorter mentions, but not much.
:o Why? The Soviet version of events does not interest you basically? Or the version only this concrete case?
Soviet versions interest me much, but that doesn't always mean that I believe 100% in them.


Slon-76 wrote:For this list too separate thanks. Now I precisely know, who from pilots was taken prisoner.
Regards
Nice to be able to "pay back" for the information we have received from you.
In addition of the two POW's, the rest seven aviators were buried at Juurikorpi to an unmarked grave :(

Regards, Juha

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Slon-76 » 11 May 2009 22:41

Juha Tompuri wrote: Soviet versions interest me much, but that doesn't always mean that I believe 100% in them.

I have already noticed it...;)
" Questions of belief with believers do not discuss " :)


Juha Tompuri wrote:
Slon-76 wrote:For this list too separate thanks. Now I precisely know, who from pilots was taken prisoner.
Nice to be able to "pay back" for the information we have received from you.
I think, that I even have exceeded the norm...:)
Juha Tompuri wrote: In addition of the two POW's, the rest seven aviators were buried at Juurikorpi to an unmarked grave :(
It is war... Solve politics, soldiers perish...

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Lotvonen » 13 May 2009 07:07

With regard to the above mentioned list of Soviet airmen KIA on 6 January: it seems to me that Gramotkin and his crew were shot down on the inbound leg of their mission by Lt. Sovelius at about 10.30 hrs Finnish time (11:30 Soviet time).

The description of the day of 6th January from the Soviet view, thank you for the link, written by Mr.Miroslav Morosov, does mention this incident - only seven to eight Fokkers are told to have been involved. Lt. Sovelius was alone, ferrying FR-92 from periodic maintenance in Lappeenranta to Utti. Mostly by chance the flight paths of the fighter and the bombers intersected .

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Juha Tompuri » 13 May 2009 09:59

Lotvonen wrote:With regard to the above mentioned list of Soviet airmen KIA on 6 January: it seems to me that Gramotkin and his crew were shot down on the inbound leg of their mission by Lt. Sovelius at about 10.30 hrs Finnish time (11:30 Soviet time).
Yes, Gramotkin plane was shot down by Sovelius 10.10 hrs (at the Siiropää etc book), and it
exploded (bombs+fuel) at Metso, near Utti.
Lotvonen wrote:The description of the day of 6th January from the Soviet view, thank you for the link, written by Mr.Miroslav Morosov, does mention this incident - only seven to eight Fokkers are told to have been involved.
7-8 Fokkers at the return leg + Sovelius earlier = 8-9 total
Their descriptions of battle do not determine the precise number of participated in it “Fokkers”. But if we take as the basis of [svedenya] of Soviet side (8-9 fighters), then claim [Ermo] [Sarvanto] to six biased machines seems improbable.
Regards, Juha

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Unique in the world?

Post by Hanski » 05 Jun 2009 19:35

So Hirvelä cemetery has a memorial to commemorate Soviet aviators fallen in the wars against Finland -- thanks to Juha for posting the photo.

Sorry about my sidetracking here, but I just got curious: does anyone know whether this memorial stone is unique in its kind in the whole world?

Do you know of any other memorials to honour fallen enemy aviators (including bomber crews)? Are there similar ones to commemorate Luftwaffe aviators on wartime Allied soil, for the RAF and USAAF on German soil, Japanese memorials paying tribute to American aviators etc.? Please let me know, if any such exist.

- I opened another thread to discuss this in the World Wars Today section: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1339288

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Quote of the source literature

Post by Hanski » 08 Jun 2009 15:56

Here is a passage of the source book, kindly provided to me by Juha:

When Sarvanto and Sovelius met Lieutenant Nikulin in Kouvola on 7 January, he told them that the last aircraft shot down by Sarvanto and crashed in the terrain of Vesikallio had according to its tactical insignia been Major Maystrenko’s aircraft. If this information is to be considered reliable, based on it all the aviators buried at Uronlampi can be named, as they were the crews of the aircraft flown by Major Maystrenko and Captain Blinov.

There was a makeshift morgue, a shed for the firefighting equipment of the brick factory of Juurikorpi, which was located to the right of the road coming to Juurikorpi from the east, about 100 meters from then railway crossing. Juurikorpi station was located about 700 meters from the shed to the south-east. The shed has thereafter been taken down and on the spot is now a slipway leading to a bridge over the railway.

The aviator bodies found from the aircraft that crashed in Metso, Seivässuo, Koukkulankangas, Heinoja, and Turkia were taken to be buried at Hirvelä graveyard, located about three kilometers to the north-east from Sippola church. In the list of the dead of Sippola Parish, there is an entry for January 1940, about the dead and deformed bodies of Russians, collected from five bombers shot down on 6 January, a total of 15, who were buried on 11 January in a common grave on the Paasivirta river side of the old part of Hirvelä cemetery. The grave with the length of 2,2 meters, width of 0,8 meters, and depth of 1,8 meters is placed somewhat separate from the rest of graves. As far as the previous information told by Lieutenant Nikulin is accurate, those buried at Hirvelä are the crews of the aircraft flown by Senior Politruk Gramotkin, Senior Lieutenant Chugunov, Lieutenant Nikulin, Lieutenant Kryazev, and Lieutenant Skosarev, except for Nikulin himself.

After the end of the Continuation War the Allied Control Commission, which in Finland nearly without exception consisted of Soviets only, tried to find out the names and grave sites of Soviet aviators shot down over Finnish territory and buried in Finland. The Control Commission carried out interrogations on the issue initially in Hotel Pallas, their accommodation in Kotka, and then also visited to check the grave of Soviet aviators at Hirvelä and to interrogate the local population. Their purpose was to find out the ways of death of the aviators, because members of the Control Commission suspected that part of them might have been executed. Based on the preliminary investigations, it was however seen that there were no reasons for further measures in this respect. The Soviet officers did not see the need of having their deceased transferred to their homeland, either. The knowledge about the Control Commission’s visit to Hirvelä quickly spread among the evacuees placed in the town, and they soon went to demand answers from Soviet officers to “When will we get back to Kurkijoki?”. The officers replied that those affairs are decided by more senior gentlemen in Moscow.

Already a little earlier than the visit of the Control Commission, a proposal had been made at the meeting of the Sippola Chapter of the Finland - Soviet Union Society on 15 April 1945, to renovate the grave of Soviet aviators at Hirvelä cemetery. The project made slow progress, and not until 1967 was there an effort to get a memorial stone. Finally a stone ground of black granite was obtained for the grave, with the Finnish language text “In commemoration of Soviet aviators fallen in the wars”. In the upper right-hand corner of the stone is a gilded four-pointed star, with three wave lines radiating to bottom left. In addition to these, there is no other text in the stone, no names or dates. In the 1990’s the grave got a stone trimming, as sand washed down with rainwater from the upper slope had made it more difficult to care for the grave. The trim stones were acquired by Sippola Parish, now taking care of the grave. On Christmas Eves, some unknown party regularly lights up a candle on the grave, as the Parish does not arrange it, and neither does the Sippola Chapter of Finland-Russia Society.




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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Slon-76 » 27 Dec 2010 22:56

Hi!

2000 patrons? How many patrons were at Finnish D.XXI?
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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Dec 2010 08:43

Hi!

IIRC the 2000 is the correct number and it originates from Sarvanto report.
IIRC 600/gun to the guns at fuselage (another one loaded with tracers) and 400/gun at wings.
At Sarvanto case the type of the ammo was not of usual type.
His mechanics/armorers had loaded the guns with ammo new to Finns - italian purchased armorpiercing-incendiary type ammo.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Dec 2010 10:41

Course of the aerial battle: “I approached alone from ahead and below. I changed my course to parallel so that they flew over me and I got behind and below them. I shot the a/c in flames from right behind about in the numbered sequence (sketch below). In the beginning the gunners flank-fired but I suppressed their fire with brief bursts. My range varied from 20 to 150m.

I fired minimal bursts at the engines and each a/c caught fire at the 2nd or 3rd burst. Ammunition consumption about 2000 pcs.”
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/sarvan/sarvan.htm

Regards, Juha

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by Surfer » 16 Dec 2015 15:32

About three years my friends and I have been studying the details of this famous battle. It has been studied a lot of documents from the Russian and Finnish Archives, it was found some relatives of the dead airmen who provided photographs and letters from the personal archives. Two families came to the grave of pilots in Hirvela to honor their memory.
Very soon it will be published a long article (in Russian), devoted to the results of our research.

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Re: Jorma Sarvanto 6 DB-3 down in 4 minutes 060140

Post by mirekw » 19 Dec 2015 10:05

"Very soon it will be published a long article (in Russian), devoted to the results of our research."

Nice, when will be finnish and "printed" let us know, it is interesting
mw

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