Finnish Artillery

[JTV]

I wonder if they were effective as a AA gun having such a slow rate of fire.

Antitank-rifle L-39 was semiautomatic, while L-39/44 could fire also full-auto, but indeed even it had a slow rate of fire (practical maximum rate of fire 80 - 100 shots per minute). But they were still more effective against Soviet Il-2 ground attack aircraft, than shooting with rifle-caliber weapons or throwing rocks. Soviet Il-2 aircraft was pretty much immune to rifle-caliber bullets, so something bigger was needed. During the war they (L-39 and L-39/44) were not used by anti-aicraft gun units, but just normal infantry. Since Finnish infantry units didn't have anything better for this purpose, even 20-mm semiautomatic had to do. Actually downing enemy aircraft with L-39 or L-39/44 seems to have been very rare, but incoming 20-mm shells might have had some impact for keeping the Soviet pilots to stay bit further away.

Jarkko

[YAN]

Hello Jarkko, did the Finns make use of any Russian 12.7mm HMGs or did they get there hands on any French 13.2mm HMGs for air defence (or even to use against light vehicles).
Yan.

[JTV]

Hello Jarkko, did the Finns make use of any Russian 12.7mm HMGs or did they get there hands on any French 13.2mm HMGs for air defence (or even to use against light vehicles).
Yan.

Soviet 12.7 mm DShK M/38: Only small number (certainly less than 20, could be less than 10) captured. There were individual machineguns here and there - with some of them possibly seeing combat use. It's possible that they may have been at least partly concentrated to Navy and coastal troops (technically considered part of the navy). I remember for example spotting one among weaponry of a individual coastal fort, three captured Soviet motor torpedo boats each had one of these etc... Finnish Air Force used captured Soviet 12.7-mm (Berezin) aircraft machineguns apparently in larger numbers in its aircraft.

French 13.2 mm HMG: Few (at least two) acquired for testing purposes in early 1930's. Apparently didn't see any use after that. BTW: Also few Vickers Class C and Class D .5 machineguns were acquired for testing around the same time - no info of them being used either after the tests were done.

Jarkko

[YAN]

Thanks Jarkko, you have been a great help.
Yan.

[40 tons]

There was talk about using field artillery in AT role. Does anyone know cases where Finns succesfully used field artillery in AT role?

I know cases where it was tried, but they all failed. In the most humiliating case the tank (a KV) the field artillery was tasked to destroy just towed the gun away to the Soviet side.

[YAN]

Hi 40, the field artillery was all issude with some type type of AT round I am sure, but see the winter war web site for a good selection of data on Finnish artillery.

[Juha Tompuri]

There was talk about using field artillery in AT role. Does anyone know cases where Finns succesfully used field artillery in AT role?

IIRC the se photos from books Suomi Tahtoi Elää ja Ankarat Vuodet are from the same event:
Finnish 76 K/02 destroying a Soviet T-70 tank at Uomaa region 7th July 1944




Regards, Juha

[Tero]

Hello Jarkko, did the Finns make use of any Russian 12.7mm HMGs or did they get there hands on any French 13.2mm HMGs for air defence (or even to use against light vehicles).
Yan.

Soviet 12.7 mm DShK M/38: Only small number (certainly less than 20, could be less than 10) captured. There were individual machineguns here and there - with some of them possibly seeing combat use. It's possible that they may have been at least partly concentrated to Navy and coastal troops (technically considered part of the navy). I remember for example spotting one among weaponry of a individual coastal fort, three captured Soviet motor torpedo boats each had one of these etc... Finnish Air Force used captured Soviet 12.7-mm (Berezin) aircraft machineguns apparently in larger numbers in its aircraft.

French 13.2 mm HMG: Few (at least two) acquired for testing purposes in early 1930's. Apparently didn't see any use after that. BTW: Also few Vickers Class C and Class D .5 machineguns were acquired for testing around the same time - no info of them being used either after the tests were done.

Jarkko

IIRC there is a bit of footage among the Hyökkäävät kamerat ( http://www.finnkino.fi/dvd/2341/ ) with a DShK in it. IIRC the footage was winter time (might have been about taking Suursaari) and the HMG was on a sled.

[peeved]

There was talk about using field artillery in AT role. Does anyone know cases where Finns succesfully used field artillery in AT role?

During the summer 1944 battles Finnish field artillery accounted for ca. 10% of the enemy tanks reported destroyed; source Jalkaväen Vuosikirja XII (Infantry Yearbook XII).
Markus

[JTV]

There was talk about using field artillery in AT role. Does anyone know cases where Finns succesfully used field artillery in AT role?

During the summer 1944 battles Finnish field artillery accounted for ca. 10% of the enemy tanks reported destroyed; source Jalkaväen Vuosikirja XII (Infantry Yearbook XII).
Markus

There was more than one way for field infantry to destroy tanks. Obviously way that the field artillery most commonly destroyed tanks was firing a barrage (keskitys) on spotted tanks - resulting a lucky hit destroying a tank every now and then. Another way was using field guns in a direct fire role (suorasuuntaustuli) in similar manner as anti-tank guns, as mentioned this would have been much more rare and since field guns were not commonly exactly ideal for this role, the success rate was often not so spectacular. In addition to these two, book Kollaa kestää by E. Palolampi mentions repeatedly using field guns for destroing tanks with tikkaus-ammunta method (indirect fire with one gun/howitzer, fire observer seeing the target corrected fire after each shell).

Marskin panssarintuhoojat by E. Käkelä tells (around pages 203 - 211) about successful use of "shortened field guns" (76 LK/13 and 76 LK/10-13) in antitank-role against Soviet tanks in motti's of Itä-Lemetti and Länsi-Lemetti during Winter War.

Jarkko

[40 tons]

Thanks Juha and JTV.

Now that I saw those photos I remember seeing them before.

It makes sense that even those 76mm guns were effective against Soviet light tanks. Distances in Finnish terrain were often short and enemy advance routes limited, so fire could be effective even with the limited sights and mobility of light field artillery pieces.

Medium and heavy enemy tanks would be mostly invulnerable to those fires. Germans used 10cm guns succesfully against those tanks, but I suspect Finns considered heavy (in Finnish terms) field artillery pieces too precious to be used in AT role.

I recall that in the beginning of Soviet offensive in summer 1944 there were multiple heavy batteries (of 17, 18 and 20 battalions?) located direcly on Soviet advance routes on the rightmost sector of 2nd division. Some of these batteries continued firing still when enemy was already closer than minimum range. At least one whole battery (2. or 4. of KTR15, can't remember?) was assigned for AT role just by a road used by Soviet tanks, but I don't recall reading any accounts of AT action. Disappointingly so far the best account I have read of those artillery actions on 2nd division sector is in "Tykistö taistelussa" (correct name?), published in early 1950ies. It's superior even to "Murtajan tykistö" which is specifically about artillery of 2nd division.

[Simon Orchard]

On the subject of artillery, does anyone know which Finnish artillery unit and what type of gun were in use against the Germans at Kilpisjärvi in 1945?

The Germans report up to 4 guns of light calibre but also reported as being around 10cm in one case.

[JTV]

On the subject of artillery, does anyone know which Finnish artillery unit and what type of gun were in use against the Germans at Kilpisjärvi in 1945?

The Germans report up to 4 guns of light calibre but also reported as being around 10cm in one case.

Section from 8th Artillery Battery of Field Artillery Regiment 1. It had two 105 H/37 light howitzers. It fired the last Finnish artillery shells fired in combat 12th of April 1945 11:25 from foot of a Lentsuvaara hill to Ailakantunturi hill.

Earlier 2nd and 3rd Artillery Battalions of Field Artillery Regiment 1 had served in that direction. From those two units 2nd Battalion had been equipped with 76 RK/27 infantry guns and 3rd Battalion with 105 H/37 light howitzers. But 3rd Battalion (minus the 8th Battery) had been pulled off 27th of November 1944, since it was motorised and could not follow troops in existing conditions.

Source: Suomen kenttätykistön historia, osa 2 (History of Finnish Field Artillery, part 2) by Paulaharju, Sinerma and Koskimaa, page 516.

Jarkko

[Simon Orchard]

Many thanks Jarkko, here's a summary of relevant activity and reports from the German side, it's always interesting to see how the two sides compare.

12 Jan.45 the last troops (GJR 206 combat group) evacuate the Sturmbock Stellung

16 Jan.45 GJR 206 finished moving through the lines of the Kilpisjärvi stellung

17 Jan.45 First enemy sighted by Kilpisjärvi stellung

07 Mar.45. Germans report the first artillery fire against their positions, estimate it to be 2 guns of around 10cm calibre

09 Mar.45 Further artillery fire reported

23 Mar.45 Around 52 rounds of artillery reported fired against Germans, 1 KIA, 2 WIA

31 Mar.45. German patrol fired at by enemy artillery

07 Apr.45. light artillery fire reported, Germans estimate the Finns only have 4 guns in the area.

12 Apr.45. I'm actually missing this day

23 Apr.45. Germans report 1 gun firing 16 rounds against them. This was during the evacuation of the last German units from the Kilpisjärvi stellung which began on the 20 Apr. and was completed on the 25 Apr.

[Sturm78]

Hi all,

I found this image on Ebay. According to photocaption it is a finnish coastal gun. Can anybody identify it?

Regards Sturm78