Finnish Artillery

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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veeteetee
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by veeteetee » 29 Mar 2021 20:01

Finnish designations:
1) 120 Krh/38, captured USSR mortar with carriage modified by Tampella
2) 50 Krh/ss-I, captured USSR mortar
2) 50 Krh/ss-II, captured USSR mortar
3) 81 Krh/30, Polish Avia wz.28
4) Swedish light mortar, never seen in Finland i.e. the photo is a repro
5) 81 Krh/31, French Stokes-Brandt de 81m M/M Mle 1927-31

For more info see Markku Palokangas "Jalkaväen raskaat aseet ja ryhmäaseet"

When referring to SA-kuva.fi pictures it would be more than recommandable to USE THEIR RESPECTIVE NUMBERS.

For example 3) is SA 113251 and the text in Finnish says "Krh m/30 edestä. Helsinki, Av 10, Katajanokka 1944.01.13", in English "Mortar m/30 from the front. Gun depot 10, Katajanokka, 1944.01.13". When no SA number is given, the info has to be re-tracked, which sometimes is nearly impossible and always totally frustrating.

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 29 Mar 2021 20:05

ArmchairSamurai wrote:
29 Mar 2021 18:25
Image
SA-kuva 113145, 120 Krh/38 modified for towing by horse, Vammala, Tyrvää 1942.11.11.

veeteetee
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by veeteetee » 29 Mar 2021 20:45


veeteetee
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by veeteetee » 29 Mar 2021 20:53

For 1):

"WARTIME MORTAR REPAIR WORK

Right from the beginning of the Winter War the Finnish troops were able to capture large amounts of Soviet 51, 81 and 120 mm mortars and ammunition as war booty. However, many of the mortars required repair work before being usable by the Finns.

On the basis of its own mortar production Tampella was the natural choice for mortar repairs and after a preliminary inspection at the front the mortars deemed repairable were sent over to Tampella. All incoming mortars were disassembled, inspected and repaired, sometimes with reverse-engineered parts made by Tampella.

Basically no major modifications were made to the Soviet mortars, the only exception being the modification of the trailer of the 120 mm mortar of 1938, Finnish army´s "120 Krh/38". The front transport wagon was removed and the rear mortar-carrying trailer modified so, that it was made lower, a buffer was added to the towing attachment and a seat for the horseman was added, greatly improving the gun´s usability.

The exact number of mortars repaired by Tampella is hidden in the archives, but e.g. in 1943 sent 358 pieces of repaired mortars to the front. Additionally, large numbers of spare parts were delivered to army front line service depots."

Ref. "From Tampella to Patria - 70 years of Finnish heavy weapons production".

veeteetee
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by veeteetee » 30 Mar 2021 11:51

Image

SA 115870 shows all Russian 50 mm mortar types that were recovered as war booty-

Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 03 May 2021 14:32

Hi guys! Probably it will be interesting for you to get know that we found position of two 152/35Mk guns near Ladoga lake:

Position 1, 60.63606, 30.50129:

DSCF8913.JPG
DSCF8915.JPG

After express clearance:

DSCF8917.JPG

The gun basement is slightly damaged on one side, probably during gun dismantling:

DSCF8918.JPG

Position 2, 60.63657, 30.50446:

DSCF8932.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 03 May 2021 14:47

Note 2 studs missing:

DSCF8936.JPG

An animal living under the basement has burrowed several holes in different directions. Thanks to that creature, it was possible to measure the thickness of the basement - 70 cm:

DSCF8940.JPG

I believe this battery is described at http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/COASTAL_ARTILLERY2.htm:
However the probably the most traveled guns were two 152/35 Mk, which besides being fixed coastal guns still served in no less than five artillery positions during a single year. These guns had started serving as 30th Heavy Coastal Battery on Saunaniemi Cape on Lake Laatokka / Ladoga early 1943. They got moved to new nearby positions (Kaarnajoki II) in May of 1943 and renamed as 43rd Heavy Coastal Artillery Battery in July of 1943. May of 1944 their travels really started when they were sent to Limosaari Island on Lake Ääninen / Onega with the unit being renamed back as 30th Heavy Coastal Artillery Battery.
So this looks to be Kaarnajoki II battery. The name looks quite strange - I never met before the Finns to use double names for their batteries. Why Kaarnajoki II, when Jarisevä battery was located much closer? Why not to name it Taipale?

It is noteworthy that the second position is deeper in the ground than the first one. Also, there are practically no stones left over from the banking, which are present in abundance on the first position. It is possible that mainly wood was used for the embankment. I suppose position Nr. 2 is shown on SA-kuva pictures 147490 and 147491 - no stones are visible there either.
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Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 04 May 2021 17:28

Another gun basement was found just 200 m off Jarisevä battery at 60.66273, 30.52297:

DSCF8887.JPG
DSCF8892.JPG
DSCF8894.JPG

My colleague Pavel Sapunov made a simple scheme of this emplacement:

Безымянный.jpg

Based on those dimensions we suggested that it was the position of 120 mm Vickers-Armstrong gun. And it looks quite strange - the complete battery in concrete was created for those guns just nearby, and here the same gun was separately mounted. What Finnish archives may tell us about this?
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Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 23 Apr 2022 21:25

Terve guys, hope you are doing well.

New travel season already came and one of the ideas is to go to western shore of Onega lake to search for some coastal batteries. First, 8.Mt.Rask.Ptri., 2/152H/37. Second, batteries equipped with 75K/17 guns. Did any of you see original wartime pictures of gunpits/gun emplacements of those guns? I have no idea how they looked like and what exactly should I search for. Were they made with concrete like 122K/31 basements or were only logs and earth used?

Many thanks in advance for your continuous support.

Prts
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Prts » 23 Apr 2022 22:30

Eugenius wrote:
23 Apr 2022 21:25
First, 8.Mt.Rask.Ptri., 2/152H/37. Second, batteries equipped with 75K/17 guns. Did any of you see original wartime pictures of gunpits/gun emplacements of those guns? I have no idea how they looked like and what exactly should I search for. Were they made with concrete like 122K/31 basements or were only logs and earth used?
SA-kuva numbers 128149...161 have a 152 H 37 in log reinforced position. Unit is mentioned to be Moottoroitu Patteri. So pretty close what you are looking for.
Here's 128160 as a sample.
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Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 24 Apr 2022 20:10

Prts wrote:
23 Apr 2022 22:30
SA-kuva numbers 128149...161 have a 152 H 37 in log reinforced position. Unit is mentioned to be Moottoroitu Patteri. So pretty close what you are looking for.
Dear Prts, many thanks for your reply. It looks the situation with positions of those 2 types of guns - 152H/37 (Soviet ML-20) and 122/K31 (Soviet A-19) - is really interesting. First, those two guns were quite similar, they used nearly identical carriages. Field guns on wheels had a serious disadvantage of using them as coastal guns - its traversing was really slow to follow moving naval targets. So for 122/K31 guns rather big concrete basements were made with central bolt mounted and supporting the gun carriage for faster traversing. We know for sure how did gunpits for 122/K31 guns look like:

- Well-known position in Ruopaoja, viewtopic.php?t=157689&start=15#p1403216

- Less-known position, but definitely for the same type of gun at 61.19424, 32.28592, on small cape between Vitele and Rajakontu, viewtopic.php?f=59&t=157689&p=2368275#p2368275. In this case gunpit walls were most likely made of logs, which of course not preserved.

Second, on SA-Kuva pictures you offered I saw gunpits made entirely of wood, with no any trace of concrete. Doest it mean that for 152H/37 guns only such wooden gunpits were created, despite its similarity to 122/K31 guns? Logic says the gunpits for similar guns should be similar as well... Or was it so that there were no rules and all positions were constructed Ad hoc?

I searched SA-Kuva for pictures of Šokšu or Šokšunranta position of 152H/37 guns, but with no result.

If anyone could show me how did positions of 75K/17 look like, I would be really grateful.

P.S. Ristiniemi and Vitele/Rajakontu positions are another interesting story, but I guess they will require another thread...

Prts
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Prts » 24 Apr 2022 21:50

Eugenius wrote:
24 Apr 2022 20:10
Dear Prts, many thanks for your reply. It looks the situation with positions of those 2 types of guns - 152H/37 (Soviet ML-20) and 122/K31 (Soviet A-19) - is really interesting. First, those two guns were quite similar, they used nearly identical carriages. Field guns on wheels had a serious disadvantage of using them as coastal guns - its traversing was really slow to follow moving naval targets. So for 122/K31 guns rather big concrete basements were made with central bolt mounted and supporting the gun carriage for faster traversing.

Second, on SA-Kuva pictures you offered I saw gunpits made entirely of wood, with no any trace of concrete. Doest it mean that for 152H/37 guns only such wooden gunpits were created, despite its similarity to 122/K31 guns? Logic says the gunpits for similar guns should be similar as well... Or was it so that there were no rules and all positions were constructed Ad hoc?

I searched SA-Kuva for pictures of Šokšu or Šokšunranta position of 152H/37 guns, but with no result.

If anyone could show me how did positions of 75K/17 look like, I would be really grateful.

P.S. Ristiniemi and Vitele/Rajakontu positions are another interesting story, but I guess they will require another thread...
Here is several things which bring uncertainty to this matter. Firstly it is not allways possible to say wheather a picture is from a costal or field artillery position. Then there is also no knowledge of how long the unit has been in those positions. It is quite often so that the unit takes position and prepare it with its own equipment. Hence it will be dug out and reinforced with wood. Later if seen fit more sturdier concrete fortification is made. This will propably need engineer units help.

For the 75 K/17 I have found no pictures which might be for costal artillery. So no help on that matter.

SA-kuva
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Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 24 Apr 2022 22:30

Prts wrote:
24 Apr 2022 21:50
Firstly it is not allways possible to say wheather a picture is from a costal or field artillery position.
- well, I guess SA-Kuva pictures 128149...161 at Säkkijärvi/Risitiemi you offered quite clearly show coastal battery, not field one. Additionally all those pictures were made in May 1943, when there was enough time to equip positions while the front was rather silent. There are many concrete-made positions known in north and north-west Ladoga made in August 1944, when there was a scarce of everything - time, materials, workforce.
Prts wrote:
24 Apr 2022 21:50
Then there is also no knowledge of how long the unit has been in those positions. It is quite often so that the unit takes position and prepare it with its own equipment.
- I agree, but again - have a look to other batteries urgently built with concrete after fast relocation in August 1944.

We really have a lot to investigate onward...

Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 06 Jun 2022 17:57

Dear colleagues, I did not manage to get to Onega yet, but I visited a couple of batteries on the Gulf of Finland's shore. The pictures would be not so informative as there was simply not so much to picture there, but I would like to ask you some questions.

First, a most likely Finnish battery of 3/122/K31 guns:

Gunpit 1, 60.53109, 28.01305:

DSCF9553.JPG
DSCF9554.JPG

Gunpit 2, 60.53106, 28.01201:

DSCF9568.JPG
DSCF9569.JPG
DSCF9571.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: Finnish Artillery

Post by Eugenius » 06 Jun 2022 18:02

And gunpit 3, 60.53123, 28.01086:

DSCF9579.JPG
DSCF9580.JPG

May you tell me: what was the number of this battery, when it was placed there etc.?

Second, unknown gunpit was found at 60.50192, 28.0606, not far from southern gunpits of Satamaniemi battery:

DSCF9587 Неизвестный орудийный дворик, 60.50192, 28.0606.JPG
DSCF9589.JPG

This gunpit is not mentioned among any known Soviet batteries, so I guess it was Finnish too - is there any info about this position?
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