RTR 4

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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 03 Jun 2023 17:15

Eugenius wrote:
03 Jun 2023 13:40
I hope I will go to Onega Lake in a couple of weeks, so I will try to visit that area again and to check the point you marked.
Some additional maps and information from the same region:

- 12. Rannikkoprikaati (SPK 21534). Battery Elomaa south of Pisinjoki on 13 September 1941.
- Linnoituspataljoona 12 (SPK 18029). Positions around Pisinjoki on 7 October 1941. A battery is shown in the coordinates I posted earlier.
- Linnoituspataljoona 12 (SPK 18029). Positions around Pisinjoki on 13 October 1941. A battery with 120 K/78 is located a bit more south of Pisinjoki than on the 7 October map and closer to your coordinates.
- Linnoituspataljoona 12 (SPK 18029). Another map of the positions at Pisinjoki on 10 October 1941.
- Linnoituspataljoona 12 (SPK 18209). Positions at Ondrosova and south of Pisinjoki in 1941.
- Linnoituspataljoona 12 (SPK 18209). Positions north of Pisinjoki in 1941.
- Linnoituspataljoona 12 (SPK 18209). Machine gun positions at and south of Pisinjoki in 1941.

- Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17755). Artillery positions at the Lake Ladoga on 28 January 1942. No 122 mm positions are shown around Pisinjoki.
- Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17755). Artillery positions at the Lake Ladoga on 3 February 1942. No 122 mm positions are shown around Pisinjoki.
- Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17755). 3. Moottoroitu Raskas Patteri (3.Mt.Rask.Ptri, 4/122 K/31) is transferred to the mouth of Pisinjoki on 21 February 1942.
- Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17755). II/Laat.RPr's artillery positions at the Lake Ladoga in February 1942.
- Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17756). Artillery positions at the Lake Ladoga on 25 April 1942. No artillery is listed at Pisinjoki, although 102. Patteri with four 75/K/97 is mentioned to be present at Pisinjoki on another listing from 25 April 1942. 3.Mt.Rask.Ptri has been trasferred to Ontroila.

- Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17756). 102. Patteri is renamed 4. Moottoroitu Kenttäpatteri (4.Mt.K.Ptri) on 29 April 1942.

Photographs from SA-Kuva:

SA-Kuva 75364. "Motoroitua rannikkotykistöä". Pisinjoensuu 1942.02.26. Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17755). The battery performed test firing on 26 February 1942.

SA_75364.jpg

SA-Kuva 75368. "Motoroitua rannikkotykistöä". Pisinjoensuu 1942.02.26.

SA_75368.jpg
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 09 Jun 2023 17:25

Some maps I found from the National Archives of Finland.

- Map showing the area with barbed wire around the cannons in January 1943. Red shows the existing barbed wire and the blue area to be blocked with cheval de frise. The centre of the northern position ("Pisinranta") is circa 60.83437, 32.814664 and the southern positions ("Korsukangas") circa 60.81983, 32.83083.

3_Mt_Rask_Ptri_January_1943.jpg

- Three maps showing fire control tower, gun placements and minefields at Pisinranta in May & October 1942 and another map showing the placement of barracks in late 1942 or early 1943. The 122 K / 31 positions are roughly at 60.83598, 32.81311 and 47 / 40 OL at 60.83377, 32.81441.

3_Mt_Rask_Ptri_May_1942.jpg

3_Mt_Rask_Ptri_October_1942.jpg

Pisinranta_1943.jpg

- Map showing 75 K/97 field cannon placements and minefields south of Pisinjoki in May 1942. The coordinates for the placements are circa 60.81419, 32.81580.

South_May_1942.jpg
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 12 Jun 2023 13:19

Mangrove, many thanks for additional maps you provided. Here are my brief comments:
Mangrove wrote:
09 Jun 2023 17:25
The centre of the northern position ("Pisinranta") is circa 60.83437, 32.814664 and the southern positions ("Korsukangas") circa 60.81983, 32.83083.
The northern position was found by my colleague 2 years ago - see viewtopic.php?f=59&t=157689&start=105#p2376049. I had no chance to see it previous time, but I hope to do that later this week. As about southern position, we searched that area last time, and it was real Korsukangas- many dugouts concentrated on limited area, but nothing similar to gun positions. However, I will try to search at 60.82007, 32.829 as you suggested before.

Mangrove wrote:
09 Jun 2023 17:25
- Map showing 75 K/97 field cannon placements and minefields south of Pisinjoki in May 1942. The coordinates for the placements are circa 60.81419, 32.81580.
This area was searched by me 3 years ago, but nothing remained of 75 K/97 guns position, which was not a surprise - wheeled field guns of not so large calibre most likely had no gunpits at all. At least no metal or concrete may be found on such positions. The best you may find is a pit in the ground, but when did that pit appear and what was it for - you may only guess about that. Sand dunes on Ladoga shore are not the best terrain to remain as they were 80 years ago.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 19 Jun 2023 10:54

Terve guys, here is my next short report.
Eugenius wrote:
12 Jun 2023 13:19
However, I will try to search at 60.82007, 32.829 as you suggested before.
- I searched there, but found nothing, just pine forest. There were at least dugouts and trenches on other side of the road in Korsukangas, but no trace of any works here. Probably 2/122K/31 guns south of Pisinjoki were placed just on wheels without any prepared positions - at least there is a number of pictures showing the guns installed that way. What kind of a single gunpit we found at 60.81882, 32.82986 (I reported that earlier), it's still a question.

But Pisinranta position was found - here is south gunpit at 60.83454, 32.81333:

DSCN5644 Основание финского орудия 122K31, 60.83454, 32.81333.JPG

A wheeled shed of local fishermen adds to the landscape:

DSCN5645.JPG
DSCN5646.JPG

Gun mount in the centre:

DSCN5649.JPG

The entire gunpit is made of concrete, but now covered with thick moss and other vegetation, so the metal rim is only partly visible:

DSCN5650.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 19 Jun 2023 11:00

And here is the northern gunpit at 60.83544, 32.81295:

DSCN5651 Основание финского орудия 122K31, 60.83544, 32.81295.JPG
DSCN5652.JPG

A ramp for bringing the gun in:

DSCN5653 Аппарель.JPG

The gun mount:

DSCN5654.JPG

This gunpit is even more overgrown, than previous one, so I had to dig the moss with a stick, but not too successfully. However, the metal rim is visible a bit:

DSCN5655.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 19 Jun 2023 11:31

If I remember right, this battery was placed in January 1943, but could you please remind me the battery number?

This once was a bridge over Pisinjoki. However, you have to creep on it, if you want to get from southern riverside to northern one. The alternative is to drive 70 km via Aunus.)))

DSCN5638 Чертов мост, 60.82775, 32.82869.JPG

I've got another question concerning fire control tower in Yllapaa - there is a rectangular opening in the ceiling between 2nd and 3rd floors, close to winding stair aperture. I marked that rectangular opening with red:

DSCF1584.JPG

A bit closer picture:

1.jpg

So what was the purpose of that opening? Is our idea correct enough, that this was for bringing up and down map charts of big format, which charts were needed for angular measurement, targeting etc.? Or was it for any other purpose?
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 20 Jun 2023 13:58

Eugenius wrote:
19 Jun 2023 11:31
If I remember right, this battery was placed in January 1943, but could you please remind me the battery number?
The "Pisinranta" positions (also called "Joensuu" from late 1942 onwards) were first operated by 4. Moottoroitu kenttäpatteri (4 x 122 / K 31) until December 1942, after which II/3. Moottoroitu raskas patteri (2 x 122 / K 31) took over and I/3.Mt.Rask.Ptri (2 x 122 / K 31) was transferred to Korsukangas. From 4 May 1943 onwards, the 3. Moottoroitu raskas patteri had been transferred away and the "Pisinranta" positions were operated by 311. Kevyt Patteri with 4 x 76 K/02.

Besides the main weaponry, these batteries also had 4 x 47 / 40 OL, 2 x 7.62 mm Maxims and a 50 cm searchlight (and a 30 cm light from May 1943 onward).

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Jun 2023 14:41

Paljon kiitoksia!

Of course, nothing remained of positions of smaller calibre weapons and a searchlight - just pits of various sizes in the ground.

ML
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Re: RTR 4

Post by ML » 22 Jun 2023 14:58

I've got another question concerning fire control tower in Yllapaa - there is a rectangular opening in the ceiling between 2nd and 3rd floors, close to winding stair aperture. I marked that rectangular opening with red:
There is similar opening in fire control tower at Kasaberget, Ruotsinpyhtää (now Loviisa). This tower was built in 1939 and it is low version with only one floor above ground level. The opening is right behind the concete instrument table in the "slot room" of tower. I think it must have been covered somehow when the tower was in use.

Edit: Kasaberget tower is actually very much like the one at Lauvatsaari, which does not have this opening (according to photos by Eugenius earlier in this thread).
So what was the purpose of that opening? Is our idea correct enough, that this was for bringing up and down map charts of big format, which charts were needed for angular measurement, targeting etc.? Or was it for any other purpose?
I don't know the purpose of this opening. Maybe it was used to lift the long tube of horizontal optical rangefinder to tower?

Kasaberget_tower.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 26 Jun 2023 20:04

ML, yes, you are right - Kasaberget and Lauvatsaari towers are really similar, but the first one has such an opening while the second one doesn't. Lifting up the rangefinder's tube could be an answer, but this looks to be too complicated solution. Finally you have to lift up the tube only once, which may be done by lifting the tube vertically using the available stair while the opening will permanently loosen the whole construction of the tower.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 01 Jul 2023 14:07

ML wrote:
22 Jun 2023 14:58
Edit: Kasaberget tower is actually very much like the one at Lauvatsaari, which does not have this opening (according to photos by Eugenius earlier in this thread).

I don't know the purpose of this opening. Maybe it was used to lift the long tube of horizontal optical rangefinder to tower?
And I think that you are right with that - it looks that Lauvatsaari tower had rangefinder of another system. At least picture from Wikimapia clearly shows this:

Lauvatsaari.jpg

This is SA-kuva picture Nr. 102622, so it's definitely from Lauvatsaari. This type of rangefinder was lifted up any other way or was assembled from parts on top of the tower, so that rectangular slot was not needed. Many thanks to Ove Enqvist for the picture and for confirming the idea.
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Juha Tompuri
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Jul 2023 14:54

At the photo "a pystykantaetäisyysmittari"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_range_finder

Regards, Juha

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 01 Jul 2023 17:17

Yes, looks to be this one.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 01 Jul 2023 20:01

OK, here is my report after next trip to Karelia. It will be quite long as we saw a number of interesting objects, plus some questions remained unclear, so I hope you as usual would bring me some additional knowledge.

So, I will start from unknown object located in Podporozhye (Koskenala). That was definitely fortified object and definitely built by the Finns. It is located on piled up hill at 60.91502, 34.23037. Looks like a tower, but the purpose is unknown - searching SA-kuva with "Koskenala" and "Podporožje" keywords brought no result. Maybe there are some archive plans or maps showing that object?

The tower was blown up after the war and someone tried to crush cement lumps not so long ago. The object hardly related to coastal artillery, but I decided to mention it here as it is really unusual:

DSCN5843 Неизвестный финский фортификационный объект, 60.91502, 34.23037.JPG
DSCN5850.JPG
DSCN5852.JPG

No idea what was that - either part of the wall with window fallen down after the blast or maybe it was an entrance to the object from below:

DSCN5862.JPG
DSCN5864.JPG

More detailed views were really hard to make - the hill is rather steep and there was almost no place to walk on top. Trees and shrubs made the task no easier.
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Last edited by Eugenius on 01 Jul 2023 22:46, edited 2 times in total.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 01 Jul 2023 20:19

The next point is Väliniemi battery, 2 x 152 mm Canet. By the way - this is only info I have about that battery, no original name and number, no date when it was built...

The road to the northern gunpit at 61.05982, 35.64777:

DSCN5988.JPG

Entrance and some interiors:

DSCN5989 Батарея Вялиниеми, 2 х 152 мм Канэ, северный дворик, 61.05982, 35.64777.JPG
DSCN5990.JPG
DSCN5991.JPG
DSCN5992.JPG
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