RTR 4

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 14 Sep 2023 19:22

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Hope you would value the unusualness of Verkkosaari battery. Unfortunately I found no wartime pictures of that battery at SA-kuva.
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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 15 Sep 2023 16:18

Eugenius wrote:
14 Sep 2023 19:02
The only fact I knew about Verkkosaari was there were 2 x 75 mm guns positioned there in 1942 - 44. Here is a short report after visiting the island.
From the war diary of Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17756), dated 5 September 1942:

"Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3 must occupy Verkkosaari as soon as the weather conditions permit and move the personnel from Vossinoi along with two 45 mm anti-tank cannons and II/303. Patteri from Valamo's Niikkana with its equipment (two 57/48-NR cannons). The 57/48-NR cannons must be placed on wooden foundations to the reconnoitered locations for the planned 75 m/m cannons. [...] For illumination, the regiment will arrange a light searchlight to (be moved to) Verkkosaari."

From a status report by Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3, dated 1 and 9 November 1942 (excerpt below):

"2 pcs. 57/48-NR field gun emplacements built,
2 pcs. parapets for the anti-tank guns positions built,
1 pcs. open machine gun positions built,
2 pcs. open light-machine gun emplacements built."

Verkkosaari_1942.jpg
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 16 Sep 2023 23:21

Mangrove, many thanks for your input. Do you have any info - for what kind of 75 mm (?) guns those shelters were built? I guess they were built later, than 1942.
Mangrove wrote:
15 Sep 2023 16:18
From a status report by Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3, dated 1 and 9 November 1942 (excerpt below):

"2 pcs. 57/48-NR field gun emplacements built,
2 pcs. parapets for the anti-tank guns positions built,
1 pcs. open machine gun positions built,
2 pcs. open light-machine gun emplacements built."
We found none of the above, except on probably "2 pcs. open light-machine gun emplacements", which I pictured. We explored the eastern part of the island quite thoroughly, with a force of 3 experienced men, but found nothing resembling 2 pcs. 57/48-NR field gun emplacements and 2 pcs. parapets for the anti-tank guns positions. Maybe those were firing positions in the trench?

"1 pcs. open machine gun positions" could be that structure made of sledged stones, but it could not perform fire on ground/sea level targets due to high walls, so I still suggest that was AA-gun/machine gun position.

A question: do you have any info about any armament/wartime fortifications installed on Vossinoisaari? It's location is quite promising for that, but I have no any related info. As far as I began exploring islands on Laatokka, of course, it would be much better to have any related info before going there - at least I would know, what to search for.

However, I think further trips to Laatokka islands would follow next year as sailing season is nearly over. But I still have a story for you about another really interesting island - hope to post it soon... :wink:

Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 17 Sep 2023 10:24

Eugenius wrote:
16 Sep 2023 23:21
Mangrove, many thanks for your input. Do you have any info - for what kind of 75 mm (?) guns those shelters were built? I guess they were built later, than 1942.
- No guns at Verkkosaari are listed on 20 October 1941.

- No guns at Verkkosaari are listed on 19 November 1941.

Below is an excerpt of a sketch drawn in around December 1941 for planned 75/50-C positions on Verkkosaari. The marking on the west side of the island is a dugout for the crew. Original at the National Archives of Finland, folder T-7737/1.

1st gun was to be located circa 61.1738, 30.4296.
2nd gun was to be located circa 61.1744, 30.4323.
3rd gun was to be located circa 61.1742, 30.4361.
Dugout was to be located circa 61.1758, 30.4254.

Verkkosaari_1941.jpg

- Map of guns at Lake Ladoga on 28 January 1942. Some 75/50-C are marked at Verkkosaari.

- List of guns at Verkkosaari on 3 February 1942. Three 75/50-C are listed.

- No guns at Verkkosaari are listed on 25 February 1942.

- No guns at Verkkosaari are listed on 29 April 1942.

- War diary of Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3 mentions 57/48-NR guns were transferred from Valamo to Verkkosaari via Heinäsenmaa between 8 and 9 September 1942.

- List of guns at Verkkosaari on 21 April 1943. Two 57/48-NR are listed.

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 16 and 17 October 1943: "Building accommodations and earthmoving in progress."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 2 and 3 November 1943: "One side of the wooden measuring tower standing."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 17 and 18 November 1943: "The rebaring [of the concrete] of the searchlight station is complete."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 21 and 22 November 1943: "Cable shack completed".

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 25 and 26 November 1943: "The building of an observation position begins."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 30 November and 1 December 1943: "Searchlight engine room excavated. Boarding of the forward observation position is complete."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 3 and 4 December 1943: "Concrete paving casted for the searchlight cover."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 8 and 9 December 1943: "Searchlight engine room mould boards formed."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 2 and 3 January 1944: "Started [...] casting of the roof concrete of the searchlight machine shed."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 4 and 5 January 1944: "The floors of the searchlight station were cast."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 6 and 7 January 1944: "The searchlight engine shed is completed."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 12 and 13 January 1944: "The forward observation position is finished, except for the soldering of the stonework, which will be done in the spring due to the frost. On 13 January 1944, the work force will be transferred from Verkkosaari."

- List of guns at Verkkosaari on 21 April 1944. Two 57/48-NO are listed.

- List of guns at Verkkosaari on 28 July 1944. Two 57/48-NO are listed.

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 8 and 9 August 1944: "90 cm searchlight with generator sent to Verkkosaari. A marker erected at Verkkosaari for the vertical rangefinder at the Waldhof tower [at Käkisalmi]. Lieutenant Korte leaves on 9 August to measure and determine the place of the marker."
Eugenius wrote:
16 Sep 2023 23:21
A question: do you have any info about any armament/wartime fortifications installed on Vossinoisaari? It's location is quite promising for that, but I have no any related info.
I checked various listings and maps from the war diary of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati and couldn't find information about any battery on the island. According to war diary of Laatokan Rannikkoprikaati, the first Finnish patrol visited the island in January 1942. It looks like the island was manned only for around six to eight months in 1942.
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 17 Sep 2023 16:28

It really gets more and more confusing with Verkkosaari's guns...
Mangrove wrote:
17 Sep 2023 10:24
Below is an excerpt of a sketch drawn in around December 1941 for planned 75/50-C positions on Verkkosaari. The marking on the west side of the island is a dugout for the crew. Original at the National Archives of Finland, folder T-7737/1.

1st gun was to be located circa 61.1738, 30.4296.
2nd gun was to be located circa 61.1744, 30.4323.
3rd gun was to be located circa 61.1742, 30.4361.
Dugout was to be located circa 61.1758, 30.4254.
We did not search that part of the island at all. We heard about 2 x 75 mm gun positions, we found those 2 shelters and we believed those were the ones. Second, we simply had no time to search the whole island - it was already evening, and we had to sail back to Kurkijoki, which took around 4 hours, so we arrived on mainland by 11 p.m. in complete darkness.

Both 75/50-C and 57/48-NR guns could not be on wheels, they had to have permanent pedestals or basements. So the question is: what for those 2 shelters were made? Its entrances are too high and wide to be used as crew shelters or ammo cellars. I checked the area in front of the first shelter, which we believed was a gun firing position - no studs, no metal at all.

Another question is where 57/48-NR guns could be installed?
Mangrove wrote:
17 Sep 2023 10:24
- No guns at Verkkosaari are listed on 19 November 1941.

...

- Map of guns at Lake Ladoga on 28 January 1942. Some 75/50-C are marked at Verkkosaari.

- List of guns at Verkkosaari on 3 February 1942. Three 75/50-C are listed.

- No guns at Verkkosaari are listed on 25 February 1942.
I wonder how that could be possible at all? Within 3 months 3 x 75 mm guns appeared and disappeared again? Was it so that initial plan implied installation of 3 x 75 mm guns, the guns were delivered/installed, but then it appeared that 3 x 57 mm would be enough instead?
Mangrove wrote:
17 Sep 2023 10:24
- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 17 and 18 November 1943: "The rebaring [of the concrete] of the searchlight station is complete."

...

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 30 November and 1 December 1943: "Searchlight engine room excavated. Boarding of the forward observation position is complete."

...

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 3 and 4 December 1943: "Concrete paving casted for the searchlight cover."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 8 and 9 December 1943: "Searchlight engine room mould boards formed."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 2 and 3 January 1944: "Started [...] casting of the roof concrete of the searchlight machine shed."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 4 and 5 January 1944: "The floors of the searchlight station were cast."

- List of fortification works at Verkkosaari between 6 and 7 January 1944: "The searchlight engine shed is completed."
Could those 2 objects, which we believed to be gun shelters, be in fact searchlight and generator shelters? But why 2 separate searchlights were needed?

It's clear the island's territory had to be searched again - hopefully I will manage to do next year.

Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 17:14

Eugenius wrote:
16 Sep 2023 23:21
But I still have a story for you about another really interesting island - hope to post it soon... :wink:
- and that is Heinäsenmaa, where I saw probably the most interesting Finnish wartime coastal battery.

What I know by now: in Summer 1918 an anti-aircaft (Zenit) 75 mm gun was placed somewhere on the southern part of the island.

Here I have to comment that "Zenit". In many Finnish sources I noticed that Zenit is mentioned as a model of the gun, like Canet, Vickers or Obukhov. But in Russian the adjective "зенитный"/zenitnyi means exactly "anti-aircraft" and nothing more, thus it describes purpose of the gun, but not model or manufacturer. Normally this word is related to any ground/ship-based weapon - machine-gun, gun or missile launcher - designed for hitting airborne targets. Apparently, over time, the word "zenitnyi" was shortened in Finland to "zenit", then turned to Zenit, and began to be used as a make or model of the gun, which is wrong.

So I have no idea what kind of 75 mm AA gun might be placed on the island. Most common in Russian Imperial Army among AA guns Lender gun had 76 mm calibre.

In Summer 1921 the first 152/45-C gun appeared and in Summer 1923 the second one followed. Some sources also mention a 75-C gun to be on the island in 1923 - 1939. Not earlier, than in August 1942 the battery was re-designed - hexagonal gunpits opened at the rear side, which were traditional for early Finnish coastal batteries, were re-constructed into circular ones with overhang. There is a number of pictures of 1941 - 1942 at SA-kuva showing those early type gunpits before reconstruction. As far as I know, that was 33. Rask. Ptri. There is another separate gunpit on the island, but a kind of strange one - I will tell about it later on.

In the first half of 1950-ies Heinäsenmaa was the centre of Soviet experiments with combat radioactive substances on Ladoga. Well, such experiments began yet in the end of 1940-ies right in Leningrad (!), but then it was decided to transfer them to less populated area, but not far from Leningrad - thus Ladoga islands were chosen. The idea was not to blow A-bomb to turn the terrain into a desert, but to contaminate the area with radioactive materials by spraying them or using special containers, so hitting enemy's staff only while leaving the materiel intact. However, all tested contamination methods were proven unreliable, exposure time to get any tangible effect was too long (the tests were mainly carried out on various animals) and experiments ceased by 1956 - at least on Ladoga. Some sources mention that in fact the experiments continued, but then on Novaya Zemlya archipelago in Arctic Ocean. Since then some Ladoga islands, including Heinäsenmaa, Mökerikkö and some others still have areas of higher radioactivity and even disposal sites of radioactive materials. Because of that, and also because of traditional Soviet secrecy, Heinäsenmaa was closed for visitors till the end of 1980-ies. I think there is more detailed info in the Internet in English and/or Finnish about those Soviet experiments.

As before, here is the link on full-size pictures archive: https://disk.yandex.ru/d/NRPo2ImRFh8YfA, and I post here only small previews.

There is a blown up object on the right flank of the battery, probably during those Soviets experiments I mentioned. It looks it was a separate casemate, not linked with the battery:

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Here is the entrance to the right flank casemate:

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Co-ordinates of the battery's centre are 61.23169, 30.4059.
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 18:23

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It would be not easy to understand the internal layout without a plan, but I have no plan... Right after the entrance was a gas lock (?) and then quite a large chamber partly divided by a wall:

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View to the left:

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There were 2 exits from a small chamber on the left side:

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 18:37

View to the right:

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Another small chamber with one exit:

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...which leads to the right flank gunpit:

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Left hand first rounds locker of the initial battery of 1920-ies - very similar to Konevitsa batteries. Also note the concrete difference of initial walls and "columns" and "beams" added later, exactly like on Rautaveräjä battery:

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Mangrove
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Mangrove » 20 Sep 2023 18:50

Eugenius wrote:
14 Sep 2023 19:09
As far as I understood, there was an electric cable running from Heinäsenmaa to Verkkosaari and further to the other shore of the island, so here is a cable vault:
- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3. III linnakkeisto: "26 August 1943. The laying of the telephone cable to Verkkosaari started."
Eugenius wrote:
17 Sep 2023 16:28
Both 75/50-C and 57/48-NR guns could not be on wheels, they had to have permanent pedestals or basements. So the question is: what for those 2 shelters were made? Its entrances are too high and wide to be used as crew shelters or ammo cellars. I checked the area in front of the first shelter, which we believed was a gun firing position - no studs, no metal at all.
As listed on the order on 5 September 1942, some anti-tank guns were to be transported to Verkkosaari. Both French 25 mm and captured Soviet 45 mm anti-tank guns were used in Lake Ladoga at the time. Below is a clip from a 1943 design by Päämaja (Linnoitusosasto, drawing 25090/a) for anti-tank gun shelter.

Anti_tank_shelter_1943.jpg
Eugenius wrote:
14 Sep 2023 19:19
Unknown object at 61.17541, 30.43993. Looks like a gunpit made of sledged stones, but the walls are too high and diameter is too small for placing any gun there. As follows from nails I found on the bottom with my pinpointer, there was a wooden floor there. Anti-aircraft MG position?
Eugenius wrote:
17 Sep 2023 16:28
Another question is where 57/48-NR guns could be installed?
Eugenius wrote:
17 Sep 2023 16:28
I wonder how that could be possible at all? Within 3 months 3 x 75 mm guns appeared and disappeared again? Was it so that initial plan implied installation of 3 x 75 mm guns, the guns were delivered/installed, but then it appeared that 3 x 57 mm would be enough instead?
The wording on the documents I linked from early 1942 are somewhat unclear regarding which units and guns were already in place and which were to be placed on the said location on a later date. After checking a few other primary sources, it seems there were never 75 mm guns at Verkkosaari and instead 57 mm guns were placed there to the planned 75 mm positions in September 1942. Finally, the two guns were relocated to the eastern side of island in September 1943:

- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3. III linnakkeisto: "17 September 1943. The installation of Verkkosaari's 57/48-NR to the new position has been completed."

- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3. III linnakkeisto: "22 September 1943. Excavation of the communication trench leading to the two 57/48-NR positions was completed in Verkkosaari."

Below is an excerpt of an inspection report to Lake Ladoga by Colonel V. S. Marjanen in October 1943:

"The following works have been approved to be constructed to the base during this year: Refurbish two 57/48-NR gun field positions so that the cannons will be fixed in 1.5 metres deep pits excavated in the rock, excavate combat and communication trench in connection with these stations, and build two above-ground machine gun emplacements from stone. Both gun positions were already been excavated and the guns were in place in the positions. 80 metres of battle and communication trenches had been excavated. Two machine gun emplacements had been also already completed. Ammunition storage, above-ground, made of logs, protected by stones. This is also finished, as well as an above-ground ammunition compartment made of stone.

Colonel_Marjanen_Verkkosaari_1943.jpg
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 19:28

Mangrove wrote:
20 Sep 2023 18:50
- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3. III linnakkeisto: "26 August 1943. The laying of the telephone cable to Verkkosaari started."
- aha, so that was telephone cable vault, not electric one.
Mangrove wrote:
20 Sep 2023 18:50
Below is a clip from a 1943 design by Päämaja (Linnoitusosasto, drawing 25090/a) for anti-tank gun shelter.
- but was it a shelter made primarily of logs shown on the drawing, as far as I understood?
Mangrove wrote:
20 Sep 2023 18:50
After checking a few other primary sources, it seems there were never 75 mm guns at Verkkosaari and instead 57 mm guns were placed there to the planned 75 mm positions in September 1942. Finally, the two guns were relocated to the eastern side of island in September 1943:

- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3. III linnakkeisto: "17 September 1943. The installation of Verkkosaari's 57/48-NR to the new position has been completed."

- Rannikkotykistörykmentti 3. III linnakkeisto: "22 September 1943. Excavation of the communication trench leading to the two 57/48-NR positions was completed in Verkkosaari."
- I think what I thought to be MG positions in rock trench in fact were 57 mm gun positions. If not studs of gun basements, but at least any traces of them had to be there. And we had no time to check another trench, on the other side from observation post:

Map.jpg

Exactly like this:
Mangrove wrote:
20 Sep 2023 18:50
Refurbish two 57/48-NR gun field positions so that the cannons will be fixed in 1.5 metres deep pits excavated in the rock, excavate combat and communication trench in connection with these stations,
But initially planned 3 x 75-С positions have to be checked as well.

A question: could those 2 casemates we found be shelters for 2 searchlights? If the searchlights were not so large ones, they could fit it. But we saw no any trace of power generator basement - but how a searchlight could operate, if main electric cable is damaged? And where from the electricity was supplied?
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 21:15

So, let's come back to Heinäsenmaa - the right flank gunpit. It is damaged from inside with most of internal walls destroyed:

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Again, note the concrete beams added during modernization of the gunpit:

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Gun basement studs were not visible under the thick layer of soil, crushed bricks and various garbage. I tried to use a pinpointer, but it was beeping continuously, detecting nails and other small pieces of metal. But I trust the gun basement was somewhere beneath.)))

Just opposite to the entrance was right hand first rounds locker in a kind of niche:

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...and the exit:

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 21:45

The exit has interesting feature - those 4 brackets on sides designed to keep opened doors at ca. 45 degrees. Never saw such feature before.

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If you have a look to bigger size picture, you would see gunpit and entrance in the centre, and armoured cupola and fire control tower in the background:

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And here is another piece of loot the Finns gained from Fort Ino - an armoured cupola, but of another design compared to the one at Niikkana battery. As far as I know, this is also the only specimen of this design survived until today.

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 20 Sep 2023 21:53

Note the window in the centre of the picture:

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Another window:

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The left flank gunpit, now with studs visible:

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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 21 Sep 2023 09:37

Entrance to the gunpit was protected with a pillbox:

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The loophole was converted into a chimney hood. There is some kind of bracket preserved under the embrasure - I wonder what kind of weapon it was for?

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The pillbox' shelter was turned into a shed with sleeping places by tourists or fishermen. There is a passageway to the gunpit via the pillbox, but now it is blocked with those sleeping places. Note the first rounds locker on the left wall.

DSCN8769.JPG
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Eugenius
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Re: RTR 4

Post by Eugenius » 21 Sep 2023 10:11

So let's return to the first gunpit. There are water (?) pipes running all over the southern part of the island. Some sections of the pipes are covered with stone embankments, but somewhere these embankments collapsed, and the pipes ended up on the surface. I think these are Finnish designs - the pipes look somehow “non-Soviet”. Perhaps the pipes served for heating, but in any case, how were the pipes prevented from freezing in winter?

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So reaching back the first casemate of the battery we saw, we would turn left to the one of two passageways, and find the entrance inside the armoured cupola:

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Pay attention to the niche rounded at the top in the corner of the wall - either this was a sitting place for an observer, or there was some kind of equipment installed there, like a telephone.

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