RTR 4

[Eugenius]

They are most likely combined maritime and aircraft observation towers made out of wood. Headquarters were usually indicated with a flag symbol.

OK, thanks a lot. Then we will concentrate on searching for gun positions.)))

[Robert M Hammond]

Dear Eugenius and Mangrove,

Hi! WOW! These pictures are amazing. Eugenius - were you able to explore much _inside_ the Gun Fort of Patoniemi? I am trying to learn about the weapon openings of this Gun Fort. Mangrove - I am stepping through the links you have provided. THANK YOU!

QUESTION: Did the Soviets have any aircraft that attacked these Gun Forts using Rockets?

All the best,
Robert

[Eugenius]

Eugenius - were you able to explore much _inside_ the Gun Fort of Patoniemi? I am trying to learn about the weapon openings of this Gun Fort.

Hi Robert,

Here are some more pictures from inside of Patoniemi. Sorry for not so good quality, but actually there was not so much to picture inside.

DSCF4720.JPG

DSCF4723.JPG

Top plate of the gun basement. I know people, who still saw the remainders of the gun there...

DSCF4726.JPG

DSCF4729.JPG

DSCF4737.JPG

The embrasure walls are completely destroyed, so gun ports are not visible both from outside and from inside. I hope there are archive pictures and/or drawings of the fort, from which you might get better understanding of how gun ports looked like.

QUESTION: Did the Soviets have any aircraft that attacked these Gun Forts using Rockets?

I never heard of that. Initially the fort was damaged by artillery barrage with 6 in. and 8 in. shells, which barrage caused fire and ammo depot explosion. After the war the fort was additionally blown up by Soviet sappers.

[Robert M Hammond]

Eugenius,

Thank you for sharing these pictures. Amazing! I greatly appreciate you helping me to learn.

All the best,
Robert

[Mangrove]

Cable recess:

This is a detail from a general plan for Rautaveräjä gun positions, dated 31 July 1943 with pencil additions on 3 September 1943. Original at the National Archives of Finland, folder T-7737/2. It shows the profile for the cable recess. In its current state, it is missing the protective plank impregnated with tar.

Cable_Rautaveraja_1943.jpg

The plinth has those "hooks" made of wire - no idea what was the reason of having them. From one source I learned there was an intention to face the lower part of the tower with stones, probably for camouflage, so those hooks could somehow help fixing the stones on walls.

The hooks were to be used to anchor the mixture of concrete and granite to the existing concrete walls. The stones provide not only camouflage but protection from shrapnel (the original walls are only around 20 to 30 cm thick in some places). Below is a part of a general drawing made on 18 April 1944. Original at the National Archives of Finland, folder T-7737/2.

Rebar_1944.jpg

But could power station and searchlight station be combined in one building? Otherwise how to explain that "rail line" marked on the map? I thought it was a real rail line to move the searchlight from station/shelter to operating position.

Here is a clip of a 1937 map I found of Heinäsenmaa. Original is at the National Archives of Finland, folder Perus-2764/2. It shows the searchlight building, lighting sectors and the track to move the searclight around in black. The planned extension of the line is in red. South is towards top-left. I don't know why the other map used "Va" instead of more commonly used "Vh" to mark the searchlight ("valonheitin").

Heinasenmaa_1937.jpg

[Eugenius]

In its current state, it is missing the protective plank impregnated with tar.

Mangrove, you so simply answer the questions we were thinking over for years... Such recesses are quite common in most of Finnish concrete fortification objects - artillery batteries, shelters, some pillboxes etc. And we had no idea - were those recesses covered with wooden planks or with steel strips? We were more inclined to believe there were steel strips - first, it easily explained why no strips survived till today (all were taken by scrap-hunters) and second, we thought wooden planks would be non-durable because of water. But now we see how it was made - wooden planks were impregnated with tar.

The hooks were to be used to anchor the mixture of concrete and granite to the existing concrete walls. The stones provide not only camouflage but protection from shrapnel (the original walls are only around 20 to 30 cm thick in some places).

Another question has got a clear answer - thanks a lot!

I don't know why the other map used "Va" instead of more commonly used "Vh" to mark the searchlight ("valonheitin").

I think there could be 2 explanations:

1. Just a mistake of someone, who made explanation marks on the map. At least in Russian/Soviet archive documents it's quite a standard thing, when the same objects were abbreviated different ways in different documents.

2. Initially it was planned to make only a power station (V. a., voima asema) on that place and to built a searchlight shelter elsewhere. But then it was decided to combine power station and searchlight shelter (which I think is quite natural as searchlight needs electricity supply as well), but previous abbreviation remained at least on older maps - "V. a." instead of "Vh. a."

[Eugenius]

So here are some newer pictures from Hatsi and Salosaari.

The northern 122K/31 position on Hatsi:

DSCN9773 Основание 122 мм орудия, 61.00525, 32.56561.JPG

DSCN9776.JPG

120/50V2 pedestal:

DSCN9779 Основание орудия Виккерс, 61.00329, 32.56337.JPG

DSCN9780.JPG

DSCN9782.JPG

[Eugenius]

Someone took the trouble to even cut off the studs with a blowtorch...

DSCN9788.JPG

Central 122K/31 position just 30 m behind Vickers pedestal:

DSCN9789 Основание 122 мм орудия, 61.00328, 32.56389.JPG

DSCN9790.JPG

And southern 122K/31 position:

DSCN9791 Основание 122 мм орудия, 61.00118, 32.56574.JPG

DSCN9792.JPG

As you may see, all 122K/31 basements were covered with thick layer of earth, moss and old leaves - sorry, we had no time to clean them.

And the main question was: there was the 4th 122K/31 basement? Because according to available maps and other sources, there had been 4 guns of that type in that area. We thought the 4th one could be on Salosaari, but...

[Eugenius]

Then we went to Salosaari. My colleague Pavel managed to walk to both Hatsi and Salosaari in high boots in June. He explored both islands and on the southern tip of Salosaari he found this (pictures below are mine, but it was Pavel who told be about this basement on Salosaari):

DSCN9803.JPG

DSCN9812.JPG

DSCN9818.JPG

Sorry, I didn't measure it, but generally it resembled a "classic" 75/50C gun basement with 24 studs. However, the one I saw recently on Ääninen was also marked as 75/50C on all available maps, but it had only 12 studs...

According to Mangrove (viewtopic.php?f=59&t=157689&start=240#p2486094), "Osasto Korvenheimo with 3 x 75/50-O was the first Finnish coastal artillery unit to be based at Ontroila in August 1941" - does that mean that we found only 1 of 3 basements of those guns? We did not walk there too much, but Pavel explored the entire island and found no any other gun basements. And still - where is the 4th 122K/31 basement?

Looking at the weather outside the window, it seems that the field trip season is already over. But they promise it will get warmer in a week or so, and I still hope to get to Haapaniemi this year - the 4th time...

[Mangrove]

- General map of positions of 23. Torjuntakomppania at Salosaari in January 1944.
- General map of 76 VK/04 and anti-tank gun positions of 23. Torjuntakomppania at Aunusniemi (north of Alavoinen) in June 1944.

From the war diary of 23. Torjuntakomppania: "4 April 1944 [...] One more machine gun emplacement was ordered to be built in Jaakonsaari [Jaakkovansaari], placement in an abandoned cabin at "reunaniemi". There is to be barbed wire barrier only across the island in the bottom of the bay. The cabin must be strengthened to be shrapnel-resistant at sleeping height. Filled with stones. Former machine gun positions and anti-tank position to be repaired.

One side-firing machine-gun emplacement to be placed at the southern end of Kuusikkoniemi and next to it, firing from the front, [?]. Another emplacement on the north side with the same system. Barbed wire fence to be rebuilt. In Jaakkola, the barbed wire fences are to be repaired and close-quarters defence positions are to be built. One machine gun emplacement and a barbed wire fence to be built on the southern tip of Salosaari on the beach side."

Jaakonsaareen määrättiin rakennettavaksi 1 konekivääripesäke lisää, sijoitus reunaniemessä olevassa hylätyssä mökissä. Piikkilankaestettä tulee vain saaren poikki lahden pohjukassa. Mökki vahvistettava sirpalekestäväksi nukkumakorkeudelta. Täytteenä kiviä. Entiset konekivääriasemat ja panssarintorjunta-asema korjattava. Kuusikkoniemessä laitettava eteläpäähän yksi sivustatuli konekivääripesäke ja sen yhteyteen rintamatulta ampuva, [?] vierelle. Toinen pesäke pohjoispuolelle samalla systeemillä. Piikkilanka-aita rakennettava uudelleen. Jaakkolassa korjattava piikkilanka-aidat ja rakennettava lähipuolustusasemat. Salosaaren eteläkärjessä rakennettava yksi konekivääripesäke ja piikkilanka-aitaa rannan puolelle.

Sorry, I didn't measure it, but generally it resembled a "classic" 75/50C gun basement with 24 studs. However, the one I saw recently on Ääninen was also marked as 75/50C on all available maps, but it had only 12 studs...

From the war diary of Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17753): "10 August 1941 [...] The number of 75/50-CO bolts for the base you inquired about is 16 pcs. and their diameter is 1 1/8" (carriage hole ⌀ 30 mm) and the length, if the cannon is fixed to the rock, 75 cm, if to concrete, = the thickness of the concrete base."

According to Mangrove (viewtopic.php?f=59&t=157689&start=240#p2486094), "Osasto Korvenheimo with 3 x 75/50-O was the first Finnish coastal artillery unit to be based at Ontroila in August 1941" - does that mean that we found only 1 of 3 basements of those guns? We did not walk there too much, but Pavel explored the entire island and found no any other gun basements. And still - where is the 4th 122K/31 basement?

Meripataljoona 3 (previously known as Laatokan laivasto-osasto, "Lake Ladoga Naval Detachment") loaned four 102/60-OL guns to Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13 on 2 January 1944. These were assigned as Lauttapatteri / Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13 ("ferry battery", after the Siebel ferries the guns belonged to). Two guns and the battery arrived to the southern tip of Salosaari on 4 January 1944. The bases were anchored to underground logs with bolts and were completed by February. Instead of parapets, the construction of two ammunition dugouts was started before the guns were returned on 8 March 1944.

Here is a part of a set of SA-Kuva.fi photographs (166644 - 166677) taken by Kauko Kivi. The metadata does not contain the location, apart that they were taken at Lake Ladoga (Ttus.RL, Tiedoitusryhmä Laatokka). According to the war diary of Tiedoitusryhmä Laatokka, Kivi was photographing at the east coast of Lake Ladoga between 25 February and 13 March 1944.

By comparing these photographs to known set of photographs taken by Kivi at Hatsi in 1943, it is clear that at least the 120/50 V2 photographs (166663 and 166665) were taken at Hatsi in 1944. Also, the observation tower seen below seems to match the one photographed at Ontroila in 1943 (123451). I have adjusted the levels a bit and cropped the photographs:

1) SA-Kuva 166652 and 166653. Soviet 45 mm anti-tank gun on a metal mount that is bolted to underground logs, likely at Salosaari. The mount design was originally meant for 75 mm Canet but was adapted for 45 mm Soviet anti-tank guns. Original blueprint at the National Archives of Finland, folder T-7736/2.

Salosaari_1943_1944_1.jpg

Salosaari_1943_1944_2.jpg

Gun_Mount_1942.jpg

2) SA-Kuva 166658 and 166672. Two different 102/60-OL. The other was likely at the very tip of Salosaari and one a bit north of it. Notice the row of bolts in a square around the base.

Salosaari_1943_1944_3.jpg

Salosaari_1943_1944_4.jpg

[Eugenius]

- General map of 76 VK/04 and anti-tank gun positions of 23. Torjuntakomppania at Aunusniemi (north of Alavoinen) in June 1944.

Mangrove, I checked all available maps, but failed to find Aunusniemi. Is it that tiny cape at ca. 61.0769, 32.5712, between Alavoisenjoki/Aunuksenjoki mouth and Tuuloksenjoki mouth?

And do you believe those 2/76 VK/04 and 2/45 PstK/32/37/38 positions could be of any special interest? I'm afraid, nothing left there except on piles of stones as those relatively lightweight guns on wheels needed no any special basements.

From the war diary of Laatokan rannikkoprikaati (SPK 17753): "10 August 1941 [...] The number of 75/50-CO bolts for the base you inquired about is 16 pcs. and their diameter is 1 1/8" (carriage hole ⌀ 30 mm) and the length, if the cannon is fixed to the rock, 75 cm, if to concrete, = the thickness of the concrete base."

As far as I know, the only 75 mm Canet model, which had 16 studs, was the one on the Meller carriage with a central pin. Anyway, the one we found had 24 studs and no central pin. Is there any more precise info concerning the location of those guns - ashore, or on Salonsaari, or elsewhere?

Meripataljoona 3 (previously known as Laatokan laivasto-osasto, "Lake Ladoga Naval Detachment") loaned four 102/60-OL guns to Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13 on 2 January 1944. These were assigned as Lauttapatteri / Rannikkotykistörykmentti 13 ("ferry battery", after the Siebel ferries the guns belonged to). Two guns and the battery arrived to the southern tip of Salosaari on 4 January 1944. The bases were anchored to underground logs with bolts and were completed by February.

This is really interesting new entry, but again - 102/60O, 105/58O and all other varieties of guns of this model had 18 studs, not 24. So, 2 guns were placed on the southern tip of Salonsaari (map of 1943 has the island name mentioned as Salonsaari, not Salosaari), but what about 2 other guns?

1) SA-Kuva 166652 and 166653. Soviet 45 mm anti-tank gun on a metal mount that is bolted to underground logs, likely at Salosaari. The mount design was originally meant for 75 mm Canet but was adapted for 45 mm Soviet anti-tank guns. Original blueprint at the National Archives of Finland, folder T-7736/2.

The metal mount looks to be a serious disadvantage as it's seen from today - most likely it was looted by scrap-hunters many years ago. What is even worse - the wooden basement could be seriously damaged during removal of the metal mount. But anyway - on the basement we saw the gun was placed in the centre, so one could easily walk around the gun, while 45 mm gun was placed close to the parapet/breastwork. And that circle of 24 studs we found looked to be too large for relatively small 45 mm gun. Mangrove, I really try not to look impudent, but still - don't you have a drawing of that 45 mm gun basement seen from the top? It would be much easier to understand, how the gun basement might look today.

And of course - many thanks for sharing really interesting pictures!

2) SA-Kuva 166658 and 166672. Two different 102/60-OL. The other was likely at the very tip of Salosaari and one a bit north of it. Notice the row of bolts in a square around the base.

It looks I've got the point - the additional cylinder under the basement! As far as I can see on the pictures, it has 24 studs. In the well-known Ove Enqvist's book Suomen Rannikotykit we read in the article dedicated to 102/60O and 105/58O guns: From 1914 onwards the carriages were improved to increase the barrel elevation from 15 to 20 degrees by adding a 200 mm cylinder under the carriage. Gradually the height of the cylinder was increased to 500 mm. [...] Other modifications were made to the guns and the carriages at the same time, which increased the maximum barrel elevation to 30 degrees and the maximum range from around 13,600 metres to 18,500 metres.

So there should be at least 3 more 102/60O positions and 45 PstK position on the special carriage on Salonsaari - and that is not saying about those 3/75/50O guns of August 1941, and the 4th missing 122K/31 basement. Really interesting, but the island is nearly 3 km long...

[Mangrove]

Mangrove, I checked all available maps, but failed to find Aunusniemi. Is it that tiny cape at ca. 61.0769, 32.5712, between Alavoisenjoki/Aunuksenjoki mouth and Tuuloksenjoki mouth?

The name Aunusniemi does not appear any of the Soviet or Finnish maps I have either but the shape and size of the cape you suggested, its orientation towards south-west and its position in the sector of 23. Torjuntakomppania (south of Tuulos) would make it very likely to be the same cape as in the war diary.

And do you believe those 2/76 VK/04 and 2/45 PstK/32/37/38 positions could be of any special interest? I'm afraid, nothing left there except on piles of stones as those relatively lightweight guns on wheels needed no any special basements.

There are no photographs of Aunusniemi I am aware of and the VK/04 positions were only used a few weeks during June 1944 (there were some previously built anti-tank gun positions). Photographs of VK/04 positions at Vitele (SA-Kuva 144783-144785) suggest the VK/04 guns were on a metal mount bolted to logs. The positions themselves made out of mostly logs and earth.

As far as I know, the only 75 mm Canet model, which had 16 studs, was the one on the Meller carriage with a central pin. Anyway, the one we found had 24 studs and no central pin. Is there any more precise info concerning the location of those guns - ashore, or on Salonsaari, or elsewhere?

The war diary of 12. Rannikkoprikaati contains an order dated 30 August 1941. It mentions there were three 75 mm Canet (106. patteri) at Tuulos under VI Army Corps at the end of August 1941. However, four 120 K/78 were placed at Ontroila on 9 September 1941. An order from 12. Rannikkoprikaati on 28 September 1941 mentions no 75 mm Canet in the Olonets. The only guns at Ontroila (Ontrusova) were the four 120 K/78.

106. Patteri and its three 75 mm Canet were transferred from Tuulos to Karjalan armeija on 10 October 1941. Apparently the 1:100 000 map I link earlier was just a plan for the upcoming crossing of Tuulos as the positions at Ontroila were marked as "under construction" and Ontroila was not captured before 5 September 1941. I laid the map over a satellite photograph and it seems the 75 mm Canet positions were to be right next to the monastery or a few hundred metres north of it.

Mangrove, I really try not to look impudent, but still - don't you have a drawing of that 45 mm gun basement seen from the top? It would be much easier to understand, how the gun basement might look today.

Unfortunately, I only have a drawing showing how the mount looks like from the top but not the whole position. The mount has six 18 mm holes and the logs form a cross three by three metres in length and width. The mount legs are each attached to the logs with two 1/2" by 4" bolts.

Gun_Mount_1942_Top.jpg

[Eugenius]

Photographs of VK/04 positions at Vitele (SA-Kuva 144783-144785) suggest the VK/04 guns were on a metal mount bolted to logs. The positions themselves made out of mostly logs and earth.

Well, a possibility to find another gun basement - and to know for sure it is the one, - this is something more interesting, than just another pile of stones of unknown origin. At least it is worth visiting when passing by as the cape is rather small and is located not far from the drivable road.

I laid the map over a satellite photograph and it seems the 75 mm Canet positions were to be right next to the monastery or a few hundred metres north of it.

Normally the monks do not welcome strangers, but probably the guns were located not on the territory of monastery, but outside, so they might be checked as well. Thank you for another hint!

Unfortunately, I only have a drawing showing how the mount looks like from the top but not the whole position. The mount has six 18 mm holes and the logs form a cross three by three metres in length and width. The mount legs are each attached to the logs with two 1/2" by 4" bolts.

This is exactly what I asked about - thanks a lot! At least now we know positioning and the number of bolts/studs for better search.

I can't promise I will go there tomorrow, but I will definitely keep this info for further searches.

[Eugenius]

Finally we did it! The fourth attempt within 3 years to get to Haapaniemi and to find the Canet battery there was successful. Well, not completely successful, but successful enough to consider this goal achieved.

I won't describe the details of getting there - it was not easy due to battery's location on the territory of the Olonets natural reserve, and we had to walk the last 4 km of distance. So here is the first gunpit at 60.70958, 32.82723:

DSCN0249 60.70958, 32.82723.JPG

As it happens will all experienced researches , after reaching the first gunpit we realized, that all the tools like shovels, hacksaws etc. were left in the car 4 km behind. So we had to clean the first gun basement by hands:

DSCN0255.JPG

DSCN0256.JPG

Despite its remote location, that area is still being visited by people, who try to get any loot out of earth. Items of no value are normally thrown out right on the place where they were dug out - like this rusty and jammed pouch for cartridge magazines for DP machine-gun:

DSCN0260.JPG

And here is the second gunpit at 60.71079, 32.82522:

DSCN0263 60.71079, 32.82522.JPG

It's quite obvious that no-one cleaned it for 80 years. Having no time and no tools first to remove that birch trunk lying right in the centre, we left that gun basement without cleaning.

[Eugenius]

Some closer pictures - those green "stumps" are the studs covered with moss:

DSCN0270.JPG

DSCN0271.JPG

DSCN0279.JPG

According to the map viewtopic.php?f=59&t=157689&start=240 so kindly provided - again! - by Mangrove, there had to be the third gun position, the most northern one. The interesting detail is that the top/northern gun position is marked with ink on the map while 2 others are marked with pencil. We thought it meant something like top position was definite and 2 others were just approximate, but in fact it was just vice versa - we easily found 2 southern positions exactly on places where they were marked on the map, but failed to find the northern one. We searched for it for several hours in different locations, but with no result. No idea how to explain that.

But during those searches we found 2 other objects - this ca. 3 m high pile of boulders at 60.71179, 32.82731...

DSCN0291 60.71179, 32.82731.JPG

...initially was an embankment of keskiö shown on SA-kuva pictures 148554 and 148555:

148554.jpg