Suomussalmi. Questions

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Jagala
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#46

Post by Jagala » 25 May 2010, 10:28

Jagala wrote:I'll have to look up the book(s) for info about the raid/reconnaissance patrol(s) on that day.
Silly me! You were of course talking about the action described in the second passage ("Kun Korhonen hiihti...") from pp. 158-159 in "Rannikolta Raatteentielle". This did indeed take place in the morning of Dec 18th. The first passage ("Vänrikki Heikki Karhun..." is about the action against the same second strongpoint on Dec 17th.

PS the pioneer platoon assigned to Er.P 15 was ordered at 0015 hrs on Dec 18th to block the road north of 1./Er.P 15 or roughly at the level of Ruonanlahti, but "due to enemy vigilance" the mission was not accomplished.

Jagala
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#47

Post by Jagala » 25 May 2010, 10:33

The relevant map is number 16, on page 163. (Maps 13-15 are of interest, too, for the events described earlier in this thread.)


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Slon-76
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#48

Post by Slon-76 » 25 May 2010, 21:38

Has found the interesting fact. On December, 27 the Stavka has transferred 9-th armies an air - landing brigade for landing in area Suomussalmi. But the commander of the Air Forces of army Rychagov has declared what accept planes with commandoes can only in Ukhta. As landing in Ukhta at the front could not change a situation, transfer of a brigade in 9 army have refused. For the unknown reasons the question on landing with parachutes was not considered. And it could change sharply a situation, at least Suomussalmi the Finnish armies could not take. Hence, there would be no route of 44-th division and the subsequent environment of 54-th division. It is curious, as one decision can so strongly to influence a course of events...

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patrik.possi
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#49

Post by patrik.possi » 26 May 2010, 20:14

Slon-76 wrote:Has found the interesting fact. On December, 27 the Stavka has transferred 9-th armies an air - landing brigade for landing in area Suomussalmi. But the commander of the Air Forces of army Rychagov has declared what accept planes with commandoes can only in Ukhta. As landing in Ukhta at the front could not change a situation, transfer of a brigade in 9 army have refused. For the unknown reasons the question on landing with parachutes was not considered. And it could change sharply a situation, at least Suomussalmi the Finnish armies could not take. Hence, there would be no route of 44-th division and the subsequent environment of 54-th division. It is curious, as one decision can so strongly to influence a course of events...
Hmm. I dont see how an air landing brigade would in anyway have helped the Russians in Suomussalmi.
Especially if the would be inserted by parachute, spread out over forest terrain (!)
Would it have helped the logistic situation for the trapped Soviet troops?, or just make it worse....

And JR 27, 64 and 65 started there final attack on Suomussalmi the 27th of December and liberated the village.

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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#50

Post by larth » 26 May 2010, 20:16

Here you are, map 16:
raatteen-map16-scale.jpg
raatteen-map16-scale.jpg (91.48 KiB) Viewed 776 times

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Slon-76
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#51

Post by Slon-76 » 26 May 2010, 22:19

larth wrote:Here you are, map 16:
Many thanks!
If it is interesting, I can show, as the Soviet parts on the same map settled down
Last edited by Slon-76 on 26 May 2010, 23:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Slon-76
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#52

Post by Slon-76 » 26 May 2010, 23:11

patrik.possi wrote: Hmm. I dont see how an air landing brigade would in anyway have helped the Russians in Suomussalmi.
The situation in Suomussalmi was not such critical as it seems to you. Attack on Hulkonniemi on 27-th of December has been actually beaten off. Problem was sharp shortage of people at the front because of heavy losses in rife companies. And also unwillingness of the commander of 163-rd division to continue to battle for village. The Soviet side still had the significant superiority in artillery, had tanks (on the night of 28th December in Suomussalmi has arrived mouth Т-38). Communications of a division on lake Kiantajarvi actually were not exposed to influence of the Finnish units. Arrival of commandoes, which combat training was rather high, than at Finnish 64-th regiment at least is higher, would take off a problem with shortage of good infantry. I do not see, due to that the Finnish approach in case of arrival even a battalion of commandoes, could be a success.
At least frontal attacks of the Finnish armies on December, 13-15 and 20 on Kirkonkyla and on December, 12-17 on Hulkonniemi did not give any resolute success. And attack on 27-th of December made only small success, despite of a significant superiority in strength attacking.
patrik.possi wrote: Especially if the would be inserted by parachute, spread out over forest terrain (!)
What for to throw out a landing in a wood? In 3-4 kilometers on northeast from Suomussalmi there is a big ice field the area of 13-15 square kilometers.
patrik.possi wrote: Would it have helped the logistic situation for the trapped Soviet troops?, or just make it worse....
It would not allow the Finnish armies to liberated Suomussalmi as the brigade completely closed shortage of staff in 163-rd division.
29.12-1.01 79-th and 365-th separate tank battalions should approach to front (more than 100 tanks), a battalion so-called to " the Finnish people army ", that with the account already taking place in Suomussalmi commandoes did a task of 9-th infantry division liberated Suomussalmi it is the extremely difficult decided.
Further the full concentration of 44-th division on road Raate followed, to prevent that Siilasvuo without mastering by village could not in any way. In that case, optimum for him the outcome of events would be recurrence of "standing" in Salla.
To put it briefly, it is worse than in a reality it was exact would not be...
patrik.possi wrote: And JR 27, 64 and 65 started there final attack on Suomussalmi the 27th of December and liberated the village.
If to estimate those events to retrospective, keep Suomussalmi more two - three days it was possible and without commandoes. Other business, that command of 163-rd division of it did not want, and the commander 9-th army has allowed him to make how it wants. Very big problem was approach 65-th shelf and 16-th battalion. At command of 47-th SK in real it was not simple corresponding forces to remove 16-th battalion from road.

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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#53

Post by larth » 26 May 2010, 23:14

Slon-76 wrote:If it is interesting, I can show, as the Soviet parts on the same map settled down
Please do!

best regards,
Lars

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Slon-76
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#54

Post by Slon-76 » 26 May 2010, 23:41

larth wrote:
Please do!

best regards,
Lars
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larth
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#55

Post by larth » 27 May 2010, 08:34

Thanks Slon-76!

I wonder if there is a similar map in scale of the Suomussalmi village with surrounding area available? With or without unit location.

best regards,
Lars

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Slon-76
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#56

Post by Slon-76 » 28 May 2010, 14:10

larth wrote: I wonder if there is a similar map in scale of the Suomussalmi village with surrounding area available? With or without unit location.
I hope you wanted to receive something like it? Forgive for a little bit curve embodiment.
Forces of Finns - according to a 163 division


best regards,
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lq_9562_SARK_22_1252299644 - 1.jpg
759 regiment in Suomussalmi 14-20.12.1939
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larth
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#57

Post by larth » 28 May 2010, 19:38

Fantastic, Slon-76! The best I have seen. Can you say where it comes from?

Many thanks!

best regards,
Lars

Mangrove
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#58

Post by Mangrove » 28 May 2010, 20:48

larth wrote:Can you say where it comes from?
III/JR 27's war diary, SPK 1282. You can tell it from the filename.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=1592401

The same area today.
http://kansalaisen.karttapaikka.fi/kart ... ra&lang=en

larth
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#59

Post by larth » 28 May 2010, 20:57

Martti Kujansuu wrote:
larth wrote:Can you say where it comes from?
III/JR 27's war diary, SPK 1282. You can tell it from the filename.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/fullpic.ka?kuid=1592401
I guess I have to check narc.fi in the future as well; I tried google and failed... :roll:

Thank you! I am still looking into the additional info you provided in http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1467160 to see if I could find out if the unit(s) had DUKW's later in the war, but it seems it was converted into an airborne unit later same year.

Anyway, thank you for the links, they are very nice.

best regards,
Lars

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Slon-76
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Re: Suomussalmi. Questions

#60

Post by Slon-76 » 28 May 2010, 21:30

larth wrote:Fantastic, Slon-76! The best I have seen. Can you say where it comes from?
I ask much, but also I know much! ;)
Particularly it - RGVA. F. 34980. Op.12. D. 828. L. 5

best regards

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