What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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durb
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by durb » 27 Jun 2015 14:22

[/quote]
Sweden bought the P-35's for 60 000 USD a piece, so 80 would be 5 million USD.
Or compared with M-31- 600 SMG's for each fighter.
[quote="durb"]

Right, not 500 US dolar millions but a loan equivalent of 500 million Finnish marks for the purchase of foreign military equipment was what the Finnish Defence Council proposed. Finally a loan debt of 350 million Finnish marks was approved by Finnish policy makers in 24.3.1939.
It was hoped to get a equivalent US-dolar from US governement (and if that not possibly trying to obtain a loan from the free capital markets in USA) in order to buy US-manufactured weaponry.

However, US policy makers were not co-operative. The US authorities told in June 1939 to Finnish ambassador Procopé that the loan would be granted only if Finland had a really "urgent" need for it and by June 1939 it did not look like that there was such a need (no one knew that the WW2 would start in Europe by 1.9.1939). The US foreign minister Cordell Hull was reluctant to the idea of granting Finnish governement with a loan and not to speak of financing any Finnish-American arms deals - the US authorities wanted to earmark the possible loan to Finnish governement to be used only for "humanitarian" purposes (= not to be directly linked to Finnish armament proyects). When Procopé turned to private capital markets in USA it appeared that there were not realistic chances to get any significant loans for the Finnish governement.

This is forgotten (or simply not known) by Lorenz and some others who blamed the domestic "political left" (or FAF commander Lundqvist) for "preventing" or "delaying" to get a US loan which would have enabled to buy Seversky P 35´s or Curtiss CW 21 for the Finnish Air Force. And anyway if the loan would have been granted by US governement or by private capital markets in summer of 1939, any weaponry bought with it would have arrived too late to help significantly in the Winter War.

One further problem to buy US weaponry was that the US dolar was a expensive currency and it was cheaper to buy equivalent weaponry from Europe (like from Britain if possible). One Seversky P-35 fighter cost as much as three locally built Fokker D XXI´s - and for what is known about the technical specifications and handling charasteristics of the P-35 it seems that one P-35 had not a combatworthy of three Fokker D XXI (with Mercury engine). Also Curtiss Hawk 75 or CW 21 were expensive for the very same reason (expensive US dolar currency) - one should note that also French considered Curtiss fighters very expensive and that almost prevented the French to buy them.

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by CanKiwi2 » 08 Jul 2015 19:56

Ilmavoimat Aircraft as of late 1938

Went back through all my "alternative Winter War Ilmavoimat" posts - when I left off looking at the Ilmavoimat, we had reached a point in late 1938 where the Ilmavoimat was in the process of being substantially expanded, with a number of aircraft having being bought and / or being built. This is the state of the Ilmavoimat in late 1938..... there's a couple more to come but in my alternative Winter War, this plus around 40 more fighter aircraft is what Finland enters the Winter War with...... and apologies for the spacing, I'll come back and tidy it up a bit tonight (my time)

Aircraft Year Ordered # In Service Year(s) Delivered Speed Range Guns/Bombload

Trainers as of late 1938 – 274 in service
De Havilland Moth**** 1928**********18******* 1929-30*** 105mph*** 3 hours
VL Sääski**************1929***********32****** 1930-31*** 90mph*****3.5 hours
Letov S-18 Smolik****1930 10 1931 96mph
Letov S-18 Smolik****1931 65 1932-34 96mph
VL Tuiska**************1933 40 1934-35 129mph 715 Mi 2x7.62mm
VL Tuiska**************1935 40 1935-36 129mph 715 Mi 2x7.62mm
VL Viima II *************1936 69 1936-38 121mph 311 Mi

Advanced Trainers as of late 1938 – 130 in service
D.26 Haukka II 1927-29 40 1927-29 155mph 365 Mi 2 x .303
Miles M9 Kestrel 1937 40 1938 295mph 393 Mi 6 x .303
Avro Anson 1937 10 1937 188mph 790 Mi -
Miles M9 Kestrel Glider Tug 1937 20 1938 295mph 393 Mi 6 x .303
VL Pyry 1938 40 1938-39

Fighter Trainers as of late 1938 – 35 in service
Martinsyde F4 Buzzard 1923 15 Retired in 1939
Bristol Bulldog 1932 20 1933 180mph 300 Mi 2 x .303

Transport aircraft as of late 1938 – 106 in service
Junkers W.34 1930 10 1930-31 165mph 560 Mi 5-6 psgrs
Junkers W.34 1934 6 1934 165mph 560 Mi 5-6 psgrs
Savoia-Marchetti S.73 1935 6 1935 210mph 610 Mi 18 psgrs
Caproni Ca123 1935 2 1936 211mph 932 Mi 28 psgrs
Douglas DC2 1935 2 1935 210mph 1085 Mi 14 psgrs
Junkers W.34 1936 5 1936 165mph 560 Mi 5-6 psgrs
Junkers W.34 1938 20 1939 165mph 560 Mi 5-6 psgrs
Heinkel He 59 1937 10 1937 146mph 466 Mi 6-8 psgrs

Aero Oy - Civilian Transport (Reserve) as of late 1938 – 26 in service
Junkers Ju.52 1932 5 1932 168mph 590 Mi 14 psgrs
Junkers Ju.52 1938 5 1938 168mph 590 Mi 14 psgrs
DH 89A Dragon Rapide 1937 2 1937 7 psgrs
Focke-Wulf Fw 200B (Condor) 1938 4 1939 26 psgrs
Douglas DC3 1937 10 1938 237mph 1,025 Mi 21 psgrs

Veljekset Karhumäki - Civilian Transport (Reserve) as of late 1938 – 21 in service
DH.89 Dragon Rapide 1936 6 1936 7 psgrs
Noorduyn Norseman 1937 1 1937 10 psgrs
Noorduyn Norseman 1938 4 1938 10 psgrs
Douglas DC3 1937 10 1938 237mph 1,025 Mi 21 psgrs

Forest Service - Civilian Transport (Reserve) as of late 1938 – 22 in service
Noorduyn Norseman 1938 25 1939 140mph 810 Mi 10 psgrs

Gliders as of late 1938 – 125 stockpiled
JWM-100 1937 100 1937-38 100mph n/a 2+10 pers
JWM-200 1938 25 1938-39 147mph n/a 2+21

Maritime Patrol as of late 1938 – 96 in service
A.22 Hansa 1922 80 1922-25 170kph 6 hours 4x10kg
VL E.30 Kotka 1930-31 6 1930-31 140mph
Consolidated PBY Catalina 1936 10 1937 196mph 3,750 Mi 4,000lbs

Torpedo Bombers as of late 1938 – 64 in service or ordered
Blackburn Ripon 1927 40 1929-33 110mph 410 Mi 1 x Torp

Torpedo Bombers ordered but not delivered as of late 1938
Junkers Ju88 1938 24 1939 280mph 1,400 Mi 5,510lbs 8x20mm

Light Bombers / Reconnaissance as of late 1938 – 122 in service
Aero A.11 1927 8 1927 150mph 470 Mi 441lbs
Fokker CV 1927-31 14 1927-32 155mph 621 Mi 440lbs
Aero A.32 1929 16 1929 141mph 262 Mi 266lbs
Hawker Hart 1933 20 1934 184mph 470 Mi 520lbs
Fokker C.X 1934 24 1935 211mph 522 Mi 880 lbs
Fokker C.X 1935 20 1935-36 211mph 522 Mi 880 lbs
Fieseler Fi 156 1938 20 1938 n/a

Reconnaissance ordered but not delivered as of late 1938 – 140 ordered
VL Fieseler Fi 156 1938 100 1939-40 109mph 240 Mi 300lbs
Focke Wulf Fw 189 1938 40 1939 217mph 416 Mi n/a

Specialised Ground Attack as of late 1938 – 60 in service
VL Bristol Blenheim 1936 40 1937-38 266mph 1460 Mi 1,000lbs 4 x 20mm
Hawker Henley 1938 20 1938 300mph 950 Mi 2x500lbs 2x40mm 2x7.7

Specialised Ground Attack aircraft ordered (but not delivered) as of late 1938 – 40
De Havilland Wihuri (Mosquito) 1938 40 (TBD in 1939) 360mph 2500 Mi 1,000lbs 4x20mm 4x7.7mm

Merivoimat Air Arm Dive Bombers as of late 1938 – 40 in service
Curtiss F8C-4 Helldiver 1931 20 1932 160mph 730 Mi 500lbs
Vought SB2U Vindicator 1937 20 1938 251mph 800 Mi 1000lbs

Bombers as of late 1938 – 75 in service
Savoia-Marchetti SM.81 1935 15 1936 211mph 1240 Mi 2000kg
Bristol Blenheim 1936 20 1937-38 266mph 1460 Mi 1,000lbs
De Havilland Wihuri (Mosquito) 1937/38 40 1938 360mph 2500 Mi 4,000lbs

Bombers ordered but not yet delivered as of late 1938 – 25 ordered
PZL 37-I 1937 25 1939 300mph 1300 Mi 5,000lbs

2nd Line Fighters as of late 1938 – 73 in service
Fairey Firefly II 1933 25 1934 223mph 240 Mi 2 x .303
Avia B-534 1934 24 1934 245mph 360 Mi 4 x 7.92
Avia B-534 1935 24 1935 245mph 360 Mi 4 x 7.92

Merivoimat Air Arm Fighters as of late 1938 – 40 in service
Brewster Buffalo 1937 20 1938 297mph 4x12.7mm
Brewster Buffalo 1938 20 1938 297mph 4x12.7mm

1st Line Fighters as of late 1938 – 115 in service
Fokker D.XXI 1936 20 1936 285mph 574 Mi 4 x 7.92
VL Fokker D.XXI 1936 40 1936-38 285mph 574 Mi 4 x 7.92
Curtiss Hawk 75 1937 40 1938 322mph 650 Mi 1 x 12.7 4 x 7.7
Fokker G.1 1937 15 1938 340mph 1300 Mi 1000lbs 4x12.7mm 4x20mm

1st Line Fighters ordered but not yet delivered as of late 1938 – 88 ordered
Fokker G.1 1938 12 1939 340mph 1300 Mi As above
VL Fokker G.1 1937 30 1939-40 340mph 1300 Mi As above
Miles M.24 1938 20 1939 333mph 920 Mi 8x7.7
VL Miles M.24 1938 26 1939 333mph 920 Mi 8x7.7

1939 Emergency Procurement Program (have not yet posted details on this)

Northrop A-17 attack bombers – 93 ordered late 1938 and delivered early 1939
Seversky XP41 Fighter – 40 ordered late 1938, a futher 20 ordered early 1939
Douglas DB-7 bombers – 25 ordered January 1939, 40 diverted from the French order to Finland in June 1940, arriving via Finnish merchant ship in Lyngenfjiord in July and entering service in August 1940 at the tail end of the Winter War
Fiat G.50 Freccia Fighter – 25 ordered February 1939, arriving June 1939
Fiat G.50 Freccia Fighter – a further 25 G.50’s were ordered in 23 Oct 1939, arriving thru the Winter War.
Fiat G.50 Freccia Fighter – a further 10 G.50’s ordered on 31 January 1940, shipped thru Germany to Sweden (the newspaper reporter who discovered this shipment was assassinated, the editor of the paper hospitalized with serious injuries and the print shop destroyed by fire....)
Breda BA.65 ground attack aircraft - 55 purchased in early 1939, entered service summer of 1939

And then there was the last of the Munich Crisis-driven aircraft projects - the Ilmavoimat’s secret “Third Generation” fighter procurement project....
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

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CanKiwi2
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by CanKiwi2 » 25 Dec 2015 14:15

Apologies to all for my lack of posts in 2015 - been rather busy with work and with my "creative writing" courses - that all important first novel is being worked on - aiming to have my first draft of "Rannikkojääkärit" completed for June, in time for a 3 day intensive writing workshop. Most of this year's spare time has been spent on working on my fiction writing skills, been of attending a number of weekend writing workshops. Quite the education.

Anyhow, 2016 should see me resuming rather less sporadic posting of additional "What If" alternative history posts.

In the meantime. Hyvää joulua ja onnellista uutta vuotta to everyone.

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John Hilly
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by John Hilly » 26 Dec 2015 16:50

Happy New Year to you and your family Nigel!

With best, J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by CanKiwi2 » 02 Jan 2016 21:58

Thx J-P - and all the best to you for 2016!!!!
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by CanKiwi2 » 02 Jan 2016 21:59

A quick question. If you want to visit Kuivasaari, how do you go about it. I see that it can now be visited but couldn't track down any details on when you could go or how you got there. Hoping someone knows :)

Kiitos.........Nigel
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 02 Jan 2016 23:43

It seems that at least last summer there were guided tours to Kuivasaari. The tours on Sundays at 13:30 were open also to foreigners.
http://www.ihalines.fi/suomeksi/saannol ... saari.html
The tours are arranged by the Coastal Artillery Guild and IHA-Lines Helsinki Cruises, I could not find next summer schedule, maybe you could contact the Guild, maybe the last contact on their web page.
http://www.rt-kilta.net/ota-yhteyttae
http://www.ihalines.fi/

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by CanKiwi2 » 03 Jan 2016 23:38

Thx Seppo, much appreciate the links :)

Next question: what happened to the old 254/45 D guns on Kuivasaari after the 12 inch Obhukhov turret was installed. I picked up that 2 seem to have been transferred to Saarenpää but can't figure out what happened to the other two.

As you may surmise, I'm doing a write up on Kuivasaari :) with a lot of translating from Finnish. Yikes.

Kiitos......Nigel
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

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JTV
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by JTV » 04 Jan 2016 20:06

CanKiwi2 wrote:Thx Seppo, much appreciate the links :)

Next question: what happened to the old 254/45 D guns on Kuivasaari after the 12 inch Obhukhov turret was installed. I picked up that 2 seem to have been transferred to Saarenpää but can't figure out what happened to the other two.

As you may surmise, I'm doing a write up on Kuivasaari :) with a lot of translating from Finnish. Yikes.
I checked my source materials - none of them provide exact details, but seem to agree that Kuivasaari no longer had any 254/45 D during Winter War. The number two gun of 254/45 D artillery battery was disassembled and tranported away before building of 305-mm gun turret turret started, but there does not seem to be any real specific info about the other three guns beyond or later fate of the four guns beyoId the two guns transferred to Saarenpää during its modernisation in 1930's that you mentioned. It seems likely that the two extra guns were placed on storage - or possibly scrapped, since when it comes to Finnish 254/45 D artillery batteries built during Continuation War only mentioning of guns or part originating from Kuivasaari is one 254/45 D gun barrel, which was used for repairing one of the guns of Saarenpää artillery battery rebuilt in 1942 - 1943. Might be a good question to ask from a guide during your visit?

Jarkko (who has visited Kuivasaari three times)

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by ML » 15 Jan 2016 22:14

Next question: what happened to the old 254/45 D guns on Kuivasaari after the 12 inch Obhukhov turret was installed. I picked up that 2 seem to have been transferred to Saarenpää but can't figure out what happened to the other two.
I also checked some books and my notes. There seems to be some contradicting information on fate of four 254/45D of Kuivasaari.

Suomen linnoittamisen historia by Arimo tells that freeing the 10" guns to be used elsewhere was part of the plan to install 305 mm turret to Kuivasaari.

Kuivasaari by Enqvist: Kuivasaari #2 gun was (of course) disassembled as turret was built to its position. Old casemates and magazines of 10" battery were used for turret battery. In my opinion this would make use of the remaining 10" guns difficult or impossible, as would blast damage of 305 mm guns to adjacent open gun positions. The book also mentions that two 10" guns were transferred to Saarenpää 1939 [or 1938?] and another two in 1940 [this is probably false]. There's picture taken during Continuation war showing empty gun positions #1 and #3.

Kotkan rannikkopatteristo 1918–1993: Saarenpää got 2 more guns year 1938. AFAIK, only free 10" guns for that were the guns of Kuivasaari.

Itsenäisen Suomen rannikkotykit by Enqvist: 10" batteries before Winter war were 16 guns in fortresses of Helsinki [Rysäkari, Katajaluoto, Isosaari and Villinki 4 guns each, no operational guns at Kuivasaari], 4 guns at Kirkonmaa [originally second battery of Isosaari] and 6 guns in Saarenpää [4 guns from Lavansaari and two probably from Kuivasaari]. Saarenpää was rearmed 1942–1943 with one 10" gun from Kuivasaari and two guns from Katajaluoto. Kellomäki battery was built in 1942 with one gun from Katajaluoto and one from Rysäkari [no information of third gun origins].

Suomenlinnan rannikkorykmentti 1918–1998: Kellomäki battery was built in 1942 with one 10" gun from Rysäkari, one from Katajaluoto and one from Isosaari. Three[!] guns were moved from Kuivasaari to Saarenpää in summer 1942.

Based on the above, I would say all four 10" guns were removed from their positions around 1935 when 12" turret was built. They were stored in Kuivasaari or elsewhere. Two guns were moved to Saarenpää in 1938 and destroyed by retreating Finns in Winter war. Another one or two guns probably went to Saarenpää in 1942 and were destroyed by retreating Finns in 1944.

It is could also be that Kuivasaari guns were used as spare barrels somewhere, but Finnish 10" batteries [other than Saarenpää] fired only a few shots or not at all during WW2, so there weren't worn out barrels to be replaced. If there were additional "free" 10" guns left by Russians in 1918, it would make things different.

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by valtonen » 31 Jan 2016 12:28

A very popular rumour is that these guns would have ended to storage depot in Parola - actually the home of Parola Panzer Brigade.
But who knows.

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by JTV » 31 Jan 2016 14:16

valtonen wrote:A very popular rumour is that these guns would have ended to storage depot in Parola - actually the home of Parola Panzer Brigade.
But who knows.
This seems to be a sort of a mixup with historical events. Almost all remaining Finnish super-heavy coastal guns ended up to Parola after World War 2. That was because the Soviets (as Allied Control Commission aka Liittoutuneiden Valvontakomissio) demanded all coastal guns larger than 120-mm caliber to be removed from the part of Gulf of Finland that was east from Porkkala Peninsula (location of Soviet Military Base rented to Soviet Union from 1944 to 1956 - it was one of the Soviet demands in Finnish - Soviet Armistice Treaty of 1944) and transported suitably deep inland. Since almost all super-heavy coastal artillery batteries and large majority heavy coastal artillery batteries (in which 152-mm was most common caliber at that time) were in that particular area, their guns were disassembled and transported inland. Parola Armor Depot (Panssarivarikko) was used as main storage facility for the diassembled coastal guns at that time. I have never heard of coastal guns being stored in Parola before or during World War 2 - the pre-war & wartime main naval/coastal gun depot was in Helsinki.

Jarkko

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CanKiwi2
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by CanKiwi2 » 01 Feb 2016 00:04

Thx everyone, much appreciated.

Another question: How much would a train fare from Helsinki to Karjaa have cost in 1934? An approximation is fine. How long did it take back then? A couple of hours? I have the main character in my first novel (Hugo Ruotsalainen) heading from Helsinki to Dragsvik to start his Rannikkojääkärit training in early May. For my alternative history, I'm working on the basis that Rannikkojääkärit training takes place at Dragsvik and conscripts start their training in Spring. Willing to consider alternatives tho :)

And did trainee pilots start with training at Munkkiniemi? I'm working of Luukkanen's book for that one...

Kiitos......Nigel
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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Feb 2016 22:14

CanKiwi2 wrote:Thx everyone, much appreciated.

Another question: How much would a train fare from Helsinki to Karjaa have cost in 1934? An approximation is fine. How long did it take back then? A couple of hours?l
Sorry, can't say for sure, as I only have the 2-3/1932 timetable.
But, according to it, normally four trains went daily from Helsinki to Karjaa. It took 1h 26min, 2h 3min or 2h 16min, depending on the train.
2h 2min during holidays and summer weekends.
1932 a one way ticket from Helsinki to Karjaa costed 23 FMK when travelling at 3rd class wagon, 35 FMK at 2nd class and 70 FMK at 1st class.

Regards, Juha

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Re: What If-Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Post by Juha Tompuri » 01 Feb 2016 22:42

CanKiwi2 wrote: I have the main character in my first novel (Hugo Ruotsalainen) heading from Helsinki to Dragsvik to start his Rannikkojääkärit training in early May.
Hugo could also have continued (13,5 km) by rail from Karjaa to Dragsvik (there was a railway stop/halt for the garrison there)

Regards, Juha

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