Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical source

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John Hilly
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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#46

Post by John Hilly » 11 Apr 2011, 14:04

Alikersantti - Under Sergeant- was and is a squad leader. Sergeant is the vice-commander of a platoon in War-Time organization...
Philip S. Walker wrote:Each half-platoon has a separate leader, where the leader of 1st Half-Platoon (Corporal Hietanen) is also second-in-charge to the platoon leader (Koskela).
Here Linna deliberately cuts corners.
After Hietanen was promoted as Sergeant, he would have been also the leader of the 2nd Half-Platoon, and not living in the same "Korsu" as Koskela.!
But remember, we are talking about a novel, not standing orders...

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#47

Post by Vaeltaja » 11 Apr 2011, 15:44

Well... ranks and positions in organization rarely go as dictated by official TO&E in times of crisis (say a war) as losses and promotions - not to mention reinforcements and transfers - muddle the waters.


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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#48

Post by Philip S. Walker » 12 Apr 2011, 11:16

Just so we all know what we're taking about I've tried to make a decent English translation of the opening of the novel, the very first paragraph. It's taken from the Swedish translation, which is supposed to be very close to the Finnish original. However, I would like to ask Finnish forum members with access to the original text how close we are getting with this:
As everyone knows God is almighty, omniscient and farsighted in his wisdom. Thus he had at some point in the past allowed a forest fire to burn down some twenty-five acres of state forest on a sandy moor near the town of Joensuu*. As always the humans made great efforts to hinder his enterprise, yet he continued undisturbed scorching an area he considered necessary for his future purposes.
*The Danish translation says: near Joensuu, a small town in Finnish Karelia, which may also be better for an English audience less familiar with Finnish geography. I suppose the Finnish text simply says Joensuu(?)

Since Linna is talking of God here, it would be normal in English, Danish and probably also Swedish to spell "he" with a capital "h". Still, it is spelled with a small "h" in the Danish and Swedish translation. I would like to know what the rule is in Finnish regarding this. If the rule is to use a capital letter, and Linna doesn't, then it would also be correct not to do so in translation. If the rule in Finnish is NOT to capitalise here, then the translation should probably capitalise in accordance with local tradition.

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#49

Post by Vaeltaja » 12 Apr 2011, 12:26

From fourth printing (1955 Porvoo)...

Finnish:
Niin kuin hyvin tiedetään, on Jumala kaikkivaltias, kaikkitietävä ja kaukaa viisas. Niinpä hän oli aikoinaan antanut metsäpalon polttaa kymmeniä hehtaareja valtion metsää eräällä hietakankaalla lähellä Joensuun kaupunkia. Tapansa mukaisesti koettivat ihmiset kaikkensa ponnistaen keskeyttää hänen työnsä, mutta järjähtämättä hän poltti metsää niin laajalta aueelta kuin katsoi tuleviin tarkoituksiinsa sopivaksi.

English (my version)
As everyone knows God is almighty, omniscient and farsighted in his wisdom. Thus he had at once allowed a forest fire to burn down tens of ares of state forest on a sandy patch of land near the town of Joensuu. As always men made great efforts to hinder his enterprise, yet steadfastly he continued scorching the forest from as large an area as he saw fitting for his future purposes.

Notes: 'hietakangas' is not sandy moor. Well... tbh i'm not sure how to translate finnish word 'kangas' when it refers to a type of forest - it basically refers to any not nutrient rich forest (ie. not 'lehto' or marsh/swamp) where undergrowth is limited. Perhaps "sandy patch of land"? As for writing he as He when referring to God, from quick search (as I was uncertain of the matter) it seems that usually its written as 'he' though in religious texts it is written as 'He'.

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#50

Post by Jagala » 12 Apr 2011, 13:16

The driver in a machine-gun squad is of course the driver of the horse (and cart, which will sooner or later follow the soldiers). The feeder prepares and indeed feeds the belts of ammunition into the machine-gun when it fires. "Hietakangas" is indeed a sandy dry pine heath forest, i.e. there's no peat, just a thin layer of (mostly needle) litter on the forest floor.

The two half-platoons of a machine-gun company lived quite separate lives: they slept in a different tent or dugout and they supported different infantry platoons. Linna's main character is actually the half-platoon and the rest of the characters exist or appear only because or when interact with the life of the half-platoon (or because Linna needs them for the composition of the novel or as instruments of his "message").

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#51

Post by Esa K » 12 Apr 2011, 13:44

Hi all.

A link to a pic of the discussed type of forest:

http://www.vastavalo.fi/displayimage.php?pos=-252741


Best regards

Esa k

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#52

Post by Philip S. Walker » 12 Apr 2011, 14:34

@Vaeltaja.

Thanks for moving us closer to the original text. However, the problem with literary translations is always to find the right balance between "direct translations" and "loose interpretation". At the moment we are on either side of that balance, so I have tried to create a compromise here between the two versions we have so far, bringing them closer together.

As anyone knows God is almighty, omniscient and farsighted in his wisdom. Thus he had once allowed a forest fire to burn down a few dozen acres of state forest in a sandy landscape near the town of Joensuu. As always people made great efforts to hinder his enterprise, yet he continued his steadfast scorching of the forest over an area befitting his future purposes.

@Jagala
The driver in a machine-gun squad is of course the driver of the horse (and cart, which will sooner or later follow the soldiers).
What made me wonder was that the guy doesn't seem to feature in the novel at all, and the men seem to be constantly carrying the machine-guns. Must be a result of literary necessity.
The two half-platoons of a machine-gun company lived quite separate lives: they slept in a different tent or dugout and they supported different infantry platoons.
I didn't know they would be that separated. Thanks.
Linna's main character is actually the half-platoon and the rest of the characters exist or appear only because or when interact with the life of the half-platoon (or because Linna needs them for the composition of the novel or as instruments of his "message").
Good point. There is almost basis for a thesis here: "the collective group as a main character". This is emphasised by the number of quotes not contributed to a single person but to the entire group.

However, Koskela is dealt with as a single character quite a lot, and it just feels a little bit strange that all we hear about his 2nd Half-Platoon is that it is practically reduced by some fifty pct. during a single confrontation with the enemy. It really feels as if Koskela is only commanding 1st Half-Platoon, or at least it did to me until I started sketching out the whole setup.

I don't see this as an error, on the contrary, just a small necessary compromise.

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#53

Post by Philip S. Walker » 13 Apr 2011, 09:57

I think there is a small conscious similarity between the opening of "Unknown soldier" and "Seven Brothers" in that both take place near a town (Joensuu and Toukola) and in both cases there is mentioning of an open area.

Anyway, I've had a look at the next paragraph.

The first to notice the foresight of the the Almighty was a colonel. He was chief-of-staff of an army corps and found the scorched area particularly suited as a camp site. *The Finnish Winter War had been fought, the best of all wars so far since both sides turned out victorious. Still, in a sense the Finns were less victorious since they had to hand over territories to their opponent and retreat behind new borders.

*The Danish translations inserts here: At this time, which in my opinion works better. Otherwise it looks to me as if something has been removed from the text by the editor and the resulting "wound" has not been "sown up" as well as it could have been. However, it may not look that way in Finnish.

Comments welcome, linguistic and otherwise. For instance, can we put a name on the chief-of-staff in question since we know the locality and the time frame (the Interim Peace)?

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#54

Post by John Hilly » 13 Apr 2011, 10:50

Vaeltaja wrote:Niin kuin hyvin tiedetään,
Vaeltaja wrote:As everyone knows
"As one well knows,..."
Philip S. Walker wrote:The first to notice the foresight of the Almighty was a colonel. He was was chief-of-staff of an army corps and found the scorched area particularly suited as a camp site. *The Finnish Winter War had been fought, the best of all wars so far since both sides turned out victorious. Still, in a sense the Finns were less victorious since they had to hand over territories to their opponent and retreat behind new borders.
"One Colonel was first to notice, how far the view of the Almighty had reached. He was was chief-of-staff of an army corps, and while deploying forces he noticed that the burned open was a very suitable for a garrison..."
Philip S. Walker wrote:Still, in a sense the Finns were less victorious since they had to hand over territories to their opponent and retreat behind new borders.
"... and therefore retreat behind new borders."

An other pic of a "Hietakangas":
Kangasmetsä.jpg
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Juha-Pekka :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#55

Post by John Hilly » 13 Apr 2011, 11:40

Philip S. Walker wrote:For instance, can we put a name on the chief-of-staff in question since we know the locality and the time frame (the Interim Peace)?
During the Interim Peace Linna's unit belonged to 8.Pr. (8th Bde), which belonged to the peace-time IV AK, HQ in Kuopio.
In June 1941 8.Pr. formed JR 8 (Inf.Rgt. 8), which belonged to the 11.Div. / VI AK.
The chief-of staff of the VI AK was colonel M.K. Stewen.
I don't know, who was the CoS of the Interim peace-time IV AK.
BTW, Linna lost his whole squad in an artillery attack during a march on a Karelian road :cry: . Maybe this was the end of "his 2nd Half-Platoon"?

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#56

Post by Philip S. Walker » 13 Apr 2011, 13:36

Kiitos, Juha-Pekka.

Again, I will try a combination of the versions so far. The "hole" in the text I was talking about previously seems smaller now.

A colonel was the first person to notice how far-reaching the Almighty had been in his foresight. He was the chief-of-staff of an army corps, and whilst deploying his forces he looked at the burned clearing and found it highly suitable for a garrison. The Finnish Winter War had been fought, the best of all wars so far since both sides turned out victorious. Still, in a sense the Finns were less victorious, as they had to hand over territories to their opponent and thereby retreat behind new borders.

And a change incorporated into the very first line:

It is a well-known fact that God is almighty, omniscient ... etc.

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#57

Post by Jagala » 14 Apr 2011, 08:35

John Hilly wrote:I don't know, who was the CoS of the Interim peace-time IV AK.
The same chap who held the position at the end of the Winter War. Lt.Col./Col. August Kuistio.

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#58

Post by John Hilly » 14 Apr 2011, 13:13

Philip S. Walker wrote:It is a well-known fact that God is almighty, omniscient ... etc.
Here we come again to the fact that every word and expression of the book is throughly thought out during the writing process. That is the reason, why Linna's text is so extremely difficult to translate.

E.g. The first sentence. Linna doesn't say who knows, or not that is "commonly" known". He just briefly notes a thought?
So, my last version would be:
As is well known,...
Philip S. Walker wrote: He was the chief-of-staff of an army corps, and whilst deploying his forces he looked at the burned clearing and found it highly suitable for a garrison.
Too many words again, Just "observed" or something...
Jagala wrote:The same chap who held the position at the end of the Winter War. Lt.Col./Col. August Kuistio.
Great, Jagala. Thanks!

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#59

Post by Philip S. Walker » 15 Apr 2011, 11:27

Kiitos, Jagala and Juha-Pekka

Welcome to my world, as Dean Martin used to say.

As is well-known, God is almighty is probably closer linguistically, but I personally don't find it a good strong sentence you would use to open a novel so I would stick with as anyone knows unless there is a roar of protests. The meaning is perhaps slightly different, but not so that it matters in any way I can see and in any case these things must be weighed against each other so it must be a personal choice, or perhaps a whole different option might turn up later and we can have a look at it.

This change is fine with me, though:

He was the chief-of-staff of an army corps, and whilst deploying his forces observed the burned clearing and found it highly suitable for a garrison.

Still a bit long, but that is typical for translations and almost unavoidable.

I've had a go at the next paragraph:

The rest of the army was sent home. In the warm spring sunlight the veterans got on their way wearing their fur caps, their threadbare fur coats, their sweaters and felt boots. They returned home without "adjustment difficulties". First a thorough Finnish drinking spree, and then it was a question of buckling down to it and getting on with the work. Had their sacrifice been in vain? They left such thoughts for people who need not worry about the spring sowing; but the fact that someone was pondering induced a suspicions that their sacrifice hadn't been all that big.

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Re: Väinö Linna's novel "Unknown Soldier" as a critical sour

#60

Post by Philip S. Walker » 16 Apr 2011, 11:35

Do the lack of reactions here mean that my translation was all right this time? If so, I must say that what Linna is saying here is quite remarkable. Not even sure I would personally agree with him.

... their sacrifice hadn't been all that big.

Surely, he can't be saying that!

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