Pictures of T-34 wreck at Ihantala road 30/6 -44

[Esa K]

Hi.

What shoud we learn about this?
- Official war diaries are not very exact,
- "Primary sources" can not be taken as absolute truth in Scientificial history research using source-critics method,
- Most of the "450's" crew musta have been killed, but perhaps recorded as MIA.
Regards
Juha-Pekka

Yes, thats true, but at least I gonna continue to try to pinpoint-pinpoint-pinpoint etc etc theese events as far we can go, cause we have now a better opportuity than ever before to do it based on archival material from both sides (but, yes, pity it did not happen in 1946, or so, when weterans from the opposing sides could have participated in a discussion, but those times are gone now... )

That is close in several essential points to the Finnish account. The last doesn't provide an exact time unfortunately, at least I didn't see it in the thread with discussion of the photo.

I can here say that the time frame I have given to the destruction of "450" is my interpretation mostly based on Pohjamos texts (who wrote his recollections 30+ years after the events had taken place, and as he also points out, the war diaries of II/JR 12 and its companies who was in the sector then is no where to be found [? have they been found? if not I think they where lost in the Soviet bombings of the sector at 3-4/7 1944]). And now when said, I see that I (trained as one to look at pictures) have to shame . Have never thought of that it can be determined by the shadows and so on on the photos when during the day they was made!!! But yes, again, this is complicated... To be continued...


Best regards

Esa K

[Art]

- Most of the "450's" crew musta have been killed, but perhaps recorded as MIA.

According to the after-action report of the 30 GTBr it lost 73 men killed and 2 missing during the period 25.06-4.07.44. http://www.obd-memorial.ru has names of 75 men killed and missing lost by the brigade during the same period. So we've got information on every one men lost without any omissions. Every tank man killed must be in the losses lists.

he also points out, the war diaries of II/JR 12 and its companies who was in the sector then is no where to be found [? have they been found?

They are not digitized.

[Juha Tompuri]

Some posts from http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=167588 were merged to this thread

/Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

As tanks were just few meters away,men noticed red stars in their turrets(stars were not easily seen because dirt and smut from exhaust pipes).Other tank went to right and was soon destroyed.The T-34 in pic advanced one km and then turned back and headed back to Russian lines.But Finnish antitank teams were waiting.First an shell from German Stug of 2./303.Stug.Brigade hit it to side armour.T-34 stopped and man jumped from turret.As he started run towards frontline with pistol in his hand,Panzerfaust fired by Corporal from GunCompany/12IR hit the tank.T-34 exploted.
As Russian tankcommander fled,he ran to private Viljanen and wounted him by shooting thru his chest.Private Arvi Peräsalo was close but his rifle was in his back.In desperate effort he picked large stone from ground and threw it toward Russian.Russian throught it was handgrenade and changed his running direction towards Finns in foxholes and was shot and killed.He turned out to be an officer,some said he was a Major.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1548428

Perhaps there was enough time for the rest of the crew too to get out from the tank unnoticed between the Stug and panzerfaust hits?

Regards, Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

he also points out, the war diaries of II/JR 12 and its companies who was in the sector then is no where to be found [? have they been found?

They are not digitized.

Here is something from the area, but seems that with no exact info about the subject.
23. Gun Company ( 4x 45mm AT guns and 2x76mm Regimental guns) war diaries:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3371265
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3371306
Regards, Juha

[Art]

There is a report of the 2nd battalion/12 Infantry Regiments which says that by 7.00 30.06.44 the battalion occupied defensive positions at the Ihantala church after retreating from previous positions. The enemy, which followed them with infantry and tanks, had 2 tanks penetrating Finnish positions, both were said to be destroyed. The document doesn't go into further details:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=8492767
The 2nd Tank Battalion/30 GTBr lost following officers on 30.6.44:
1. senior lieutenant V.K.Antonov - tank company commander
2. junior lieutenant N.I.Skripnik - tank platoon commander
3. junior lieutenant N.T.Zhirnov - tank commander
I believe that provided that Pohjamo's account is correct, the "major" must be one of these three. Hard to say more without knowing which crew manned the tank.

[Esa K]

Hi

...2 Tank Battalion....by 10.30 30.6.44 reached the bridge...

The in the report given time 10.30, is it Moscow time (GMT +3)?


mvh

Esa K

[Art]

Yes, it was an hour ahead of the Finnish time.

[Art]

It appears from the study of the award papers that the crewmen of this T-34 were:
tank commander - junior lieutenant Nikolay Trofimovich Zhirnov
tank driver - senior sergeant Mikhail Georgievich Kuznetsov
radio operator - sergeant Vasiliy Mikhailovich Kochergin
turret commander (gun loader) - sergeant Ivan Dmitrievich Karelin
all four were killed on 30 June 1944
As the posthumous award papers say their tank was the first to enter Ihantala and reach the crossroad near the village. Then it was knocked out somewhere near the crossroad and burned down with all the crew. Then the documents add several new details: the tank allegedly received a hit to the front which wounded a driver. Then Kochergin and Karelin left the tank and held a position near it for 6 hours using a tank machinegun. When AT guns opened fire at the immobilized tank they were forced to return under protection of its armor, then the tank received a second hit and caught fire, all 4 men were killed there. Zhirnov's paper also says that the tank captured the Ihantala crossroad but then was knocked out when reaching the crossroad, which could be a hint to its turn back on the section of the road north of the crossroad. This description must be taken critically though both due to a peculiarity of the document which could add some fictional details, and due to a fact that all crewmen were killed and nobody could provide a detailed account. The documents doesn't call the tank's tactical number, but it appears from the schemes posted in another topic that the only other T-34 near the crossroad was No.420 and its crewmen remained alive. So it is most probably No.450. Award papers:
http://s017.radikal.ru/i438/1111/5a/e95432e56321.jpg
http://s61.radikal.ru/i171/1111/f0/f7de23effe34.jpg
http://i079.radikal.ru/1111/4a/b3a9538d3f0a.jpg
http://s010.radikal.ru/i314/1111/b5/71472482f083.jpg

[Juha Tompuri]

Thank You very much Art.
Another piece at Finnish-Soviet common history puzzle found.

Regards, Juha

[Tommy R]

There seem to be an monument on the site nowadays.
Does anyone have any information about it?

Screenshot from Google Maps

google_maps_ihantala.PNG (368.39 KiB) Viewed 824 times

[Juha Tompuri]

Hi!

Something in Russian.
Online translation into English works quite well.
https://gazetavyborg.ru/news/450-y-ukhodit-v-nebo/
https://www.yaplakal.com/forum2/topic1754227.html

Regards, Juha