Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter War

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Post Reply
User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#106

Post by CanKiwi2 » 31 Dec 2013, 19:59

Next question is on Finnish aerosleds (moottorireki).

It seems that as early as 1919, a prototype aerosled (“moottorireki”) was built by Valtion Lentokonetehdas (the State Aircraft Factory) at Suomenlinna in 1919, with Asser Järvinen improving the design. Through the 1920’s, VL built several three- and four-ski models, powered by 100 hp aircraft engines. These aerosleds were designed by a Jäger officer by the name of Arvo Tenlenius (in 1935 he changed his surname to Tervasmaa). Several of these machines were delivered to the Air Force and the Border Guard for winter use, with a capacity of 8-12 passengers. Some of the vehicles built for the Border Guard were armed, most saw routine winter use. Their maximum speed exceeded 100 km/h in optimal conditions. In the 1930’s, a number of eight-man aerosleds, a 12-man armed aerosled and even a 15-man aerosled were built.

Two of these Finnish vehicles were purchased by the Germans in 1929 and heavily used on an Arctic expedition in Greenland led by Alfred Wegener in 1930-31. I've got photos of the two used by the Germans (below) but haven't been able to find any for any earlier Finnish aerosleds. Wondered if anyone could point me towards any photos and writeups on these.
Wegener_Expedition-1930_02.jpg
Wegener_Expedition-1930_01.jpg
wegener-expedition3-wegener_grave.jpg
Wegener_Expedition-1930_022-300x210.jpg
Wegener_Expedition-1930_022-300x210.jpg (15.21 KiB) Viewed 2004 times
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#107

Post by CanKiwi2 » 31 Dec 2013, 22:15

As a postscript, it seems that in 1973 these two aerosleds ("Schneespatz" and "Eisbär") were recovered from Greenland and shipped to Copenhagen where they were placed in the collection of the Danmarks Tekniske Museum in Helsingor (Elsinore). Apparantly one of the aerosleds at that time was in good enough condition to make restoration possible.

Source: Mitteilungen - Final Destination of "Schneespatz" and "Eisbär" - the Propeller Sledges of Wegener's Last Greenland Expedition By Anker Weidiek (http://epic.awi.de/28030/1/Polarforsch1974_1_12.pdf)

I've emailed the museum to ask about them, but maybe someone visiting Copenhagen or who lives nearby could find out what happened to them. It'd be fascinating if they were still around. One certainly hopes they are.
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army


User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#108

Post by CanKiwi2 » 08 Jan 2014, 22:48

OK! I got confirmation back from the Danmarks Tekniske Museum, the Danish Museum of Science and Technology, that they do indeed have the remains of a Wegener sledge in their collection, or to be precice, what is left of it. They do no not know whether it is the Schneespatz or the Eisbär. The sledge was indeed excavated from the ice in 1973 and sent by ship to Copenhagen and then to the museum in Elsinore. The pieces recovered consist more of less of the skis, the engine console, foot boards and a number of unidentified pieces. A restoration, at least to some extent, has been considered during the years but has not yet been decided.

The museum Registrator advised that he had a visitor in 1996 who was the son of the director of the finnish aircraft factory. He had just written an autobiography about his life as a captain in Finnair and an illustration (below) shows him together with a prototype propeller sledge. The caption says that his father designed this and it was the prototype. My own thought is that perhaps this was indeed the prototype for the similar machines seen from later photos in the Finnish Defence Archive photos are subsequent machinese built to the same design. Also, I wondered if anyone would know who the Finair captain is?

The museum Registrator also send me a couple of additional photos, a scan from the excavation and from a local newspaper to illustrate the condition.

Here's the museum address and contact information for anyone interested.
Danmarks Tekniske Museum, the Danish Museum of Science and Technology
Fabriksvej 25, DK-3000 Helsingør
Tlf : +45 4922 2611 Fax : +45 4922 6211
Information om museets udstillinger, aktiviteter, café, samlinger, støtte- og venneforeninger m.m.
kan ses på http://www.tekniskmuseum.dk
finland.jpg
weg1973.jpg
propelslæde2.jpg
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

Esa Muikku
Member
Posts: 121
Joined: 02 Jan 2003, 02:08
Location: Nokia, FINLAND

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#109

Post by Esa Muikku » 08 Jan 2014, 23:26

The person in question here is Antti Tervasmaa, whose father Arvo Tenlenius (Tervasmaa after 1936) was the chief designer of these motor sledges. The article, for which Antti Tervasmaa visited the museums in Denmark and Greenland to see the remains of BOTH sledges, appeared in Feeniks 2/1997 (an aviation historical magazine, published by the Aviation Museum Society).

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#110

Post by CanKiwi2 » 08 Jan 2014, 23:38

Esa Muikku wrote:The person in question here is Antti Tervasmaa, whose father Arvo Tenlenius (Tervasmaa after 1936) was the chief designer of these motor sledges. The article, for which Antti Tervasmaa visited the museums in Denmark and Greenland to see the remains of BOTH sledges, appeared in Feeniks 2/1997 (an aviation historical magazine, published by the Aviation Museum Society).
Many thanks. I just tracked down his book too. "The Life and Times of an Ordinary Captain : Forty Years of Flying" by Antti Tervasmaa. I don't suppose anybody would have a copy of that article they could scan in?
Tervesmaa.jpg
Tervesmaa.jpg (91.16 KiB) Viewed 1921 times
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#111

Post by CanKiwi2 » 15 Jan 2014, 18:13

Worked my way thru the Feeniks article on the Wegener aerosleds from Feeniks N2/1997 by Captain Antti Tervasmaa.

In Tervasmaa's article, he says (2nd paragraph - "No one remembered an article by the Finnish Air Force historian Colonel Janarmon in the aviation magazine N2 of 1963. "). I know it's going back in time but does anyone happen to that that issue available? I'd be really interested in digging in to that and adding in anything relevant but it's going back in time a bit, I know....

Re the Wegener Expedition Aerosleds, it would seem from the photos that Tervasmaa had built an earlier prototype (1st photo below). The windows on the prototype are rather different from the sleds used by Wegener and the struts connecting the skis to the body are rather different as well. Also, in the third photo below, a Finnish military aerosled, the sidewindows are rather a different shape. Seems like the design was being tweaked through the years.

Image

Image

Image
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#112

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Jan 2014, 20:59

Nigel,

Thanks for the info. A lot new to me.
Here some more photos of the Tervasmaa aerosleds

Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1844254

Image

Image
http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle.php?id=441175

Regards, Juha

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#113

Post by CanKiwi2 » 15 Jan 2014, 21:37

Nice photos Juha.

Someone from the Aviation Museum Society of Finland is going to see if they can find that old 1960's Feeniks article for me so we'll see if that can add anything to the overall picture. I've also got Antti Tervasmaa's book ordered, we'll see if he has anything more to say about the Aerosleds there.

From the growing # of photo's, it seems there were a few of Tervasmaa's aerosleds around. For other models, I'm wondering if the skis are the clue. The Finnish skis are rather different from the Soviet ones, but how does one tell if they were replaced......

Cheers.............Nigel
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

Seppo Koivisto
Member
Posts: 760
Joined: 20 Nov 2006, 23:49
Location: Finland

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#114

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 15 Jan 2014, 22:00

It's not Feeniks but Ilmailu magazine 2/1963, that has the article.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11562
Joined: 11 Sep 2002, 21:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#115

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Jan 2014, 22:03

CanKiwi2 wrote:From the growing # of photo's, it seems there were a few of Tervasmaa's aerosleds around. For other models, I'm wondering if the skis are the clue. The Finnish skis are rather different from the Soviet ones, but how does one tell if they were replaced......
The Finnish skis were more flat and the Soviet type had a vertical plate for strengthening the ski:
Image
http://www.theskichannel.com/news/20090 ... i-warfare/ (also some basics about the history of ski warfare)

Also the Soviet aerosleds had (better) suspension compared to the Finnish ones.

Regards, Juha

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#116

Post by CanKiwi2 » 15 Jan 2014, 22:33

Seppo Koivisto wrote:It's not Feeniks but Ilmailu magazine 2/1963, that has the article.
Yikes! Thx Seppo. I didn't pick that up when I translated it, thought it was the same magazine. Better get back to the guy I was emailing with and let him know so he's not off on a wild goose chase......

Cheers...............Nigel
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#117

Post by CanKiwi2 » 16 Jan 2014, 15:58

Juha Tompuri wrote:Nigel,

Thanks for the info. A lot new to me.
Here some more photos of the Tervasmaa aerosleds

Image
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 4#p1844254

Regards, Juha
Well, off to do a bit of translating now that I have the Ilmailu article. That'll keep me busy for a couple of evenings.

In the meantime though, I have a couple of questions. The photo above has a group of moottorireki - within the military, is there anything documented on how the units using these were organised. Were they specialist units, or just ad-hoc units that were flung together for the winter months? Just wondered if there was anything on the way they were used in the Finnish Army or if anybpdy recalled hearing or reading anything about them?

Also, looking at the moottorireki in the foreground of the photo, it doesn't look like any of the Soviet models that were captured. I'm wondering if it might be a Finnish-armoured version of the Tervasmaa design? The skis are Finnish from the look of the mountings, and the hull design seems very close to the Tervasmaa design, albiet the curves have gone where armour plating has been used. Sound reasonable - or am I out to lunch on that bit of speculation? It doesn't look to me at all like a conversion of a Soviet NKL-16, which seems to be about the closest similar-looking Soviet designed aerosan.

Image
Soviet NKL-16 Aerosan

Image
And an NKL-26 Aerosan, again, totally disssimilar...
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

veeteetee
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 22:11

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#118

Post by veeteetee » 16 Jan 2014, 18:48

More aerosleds in Finnish use can be found at sa-kuva.fi when using *moottori* for search: 4905, 126100-102 and particularly 145768-773.

veeteetee
Member
Posts: 193
Joined: 12 Feb 2011, 22:11

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#119

Post by veeteetee » 16 Jan 2014, 18:51

And lentokelk* gives SA 82132-4.

User avatar
CanKiwi2
Member
Posts: 1016
Joined: 26 Nov 2010, 16:48
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Finnish military-industry might leading up to the Winter

#120

Post by CanKiwi2 » 16 Jan 2014, 19:56

veeteetee wrote:More aerosleds in Finnish use can be found at sa-kuva.fi when using *moottori* for search: 4905, 126100-102 and particularly 145768-773.
Thx for those. All definitely Soviet aerosans that were captured and repurposed.
veeteetee wrote:And lentokelk* gives SA 82132-4.
The more I look at 82132 and 82133, the more they look like the same model as the one in the foreground of the photo Juha posted that I commented on. The ski mounts are definitely the Tevasmaa design - and I haven't seen a single photo of a captured Soviet aerosan that has been converted over to Finnish skis. Which more and more makes me think that 82132 and 82133 are an "armoured model" of the Tervasmaa design. 82134 looks like a front view of the same model.
Finnish-Aerosleds-5.jpg
Finnish-Aerosleds-5.jpg (24.96 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
Finnish-Aerosleds-6.jpg
Finnish-Aerosleds-6.jpg (22.6 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
Finnish-Aerosleds-7.jpg
Finnish-Aerosleds-7.jpg (21.42 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
Finnish-Aerosleds.jpg
Finnish-Aerosleds.jpg (20.3 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
Finnish-Aerosleds-2.jpg
Finnish-Aerosleds-2.jpg (23.47 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

Post Reply

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”