Utö 1944

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Mischa
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Utö 1944

Post by Mischa » 16 Jun 2011 10:10

Splitted from: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... start=2910
/Juha

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ML wrote:These events were the ones I was looking for, so we have a winner. Over to Juha...



WW2:
[color=#FF0000]1)[/color] ... heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen and escorts (5 destroyers among them 24.09.1944 - only 3 destroyers Z 28, Z 35, Z 36 + 2 torpedoboats T 4 and T 9 )

2) There was also another incident (not connected to Utö) sometime after 20.9.1944, when the last four German ships evacuating 20th Mountain army supplies from harbours of Bothnian Bay (4 cargo-ships with German soldiers on board to Gotenhafen; names unknown – source W. Harnack - Zerstörer unter deutscher Flagge, 1934 bis 1945, Koehlers, 1978, page 170 b, and P. Schmalenbach – Schwerer Kreuzer Prinz Eugen – Tatsachenbericht, Heyne, 1978)


Hello,
something else from the German sources.

Raegards
Mischa

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by ML » 16 Jun 2011 12:06

something else from the German sources.
Thanks for corrections, they're always welcome!
24.09.1944 - only 3 destroyers Z 28, Z 35, Z 36 + 2 torpedoboats T 4 and T 9
BTW: According to war diary of Utö Fort, Finns seem to have (visually) identified the German ships as "Admiral Hipper and 5 torpedo boats".

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Mischa » 16 Jun 2011 13:34

ML wrote:
something else from the German sources.
Thanks for corrections, they're always welcome!
24.09.1944 - only 3 destroyers Z 28, Z 35, Z 36 + 2 torpedoboats T 4 and T 9
BTW: According to war diary of Utö Fort, Finns seem to have (visually) identified the German ships as "Admiral Hipper and 5 torpedo boats".
thank You too, for me it was very importatnt to know, whta did see the opposite site, because it is very important, when You will know the true story.

:lol: - never mind, "Admiral Graf Spee" thought to strike against a light cruiser and two destroyers in December 1939.
Regards
Mischa

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 16 Jun 2011 15:56

To be fair the German 'Elbing class' torpedoboats would have been classified as destroyers elsewhere (and infact were classified as destroyers after Allies comissioned what was left of them after the war) - however Kriegsmarine stick with the old terms, small wonder they didn't insist calling their destroyers as 'torpedoboat destroyers'. Since the old torpedoboats were a dead and buried breed Finns seem to be been using terms destroyer and torpedoboat as pretty much as synonyms when referring to those ships.

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Re: The official AHF Winter & Continuation War quiz thread

Post by Mischa » 16 Jun 2011 18:04

Vaeltaja wrote:To be fair the German 'Elbing class' torpedoboats would have been classified as destroyers elsewhere (and infact were classified as destroyers after Allies comissioned what was left of them after the war) - however Kriegsmarine stick with the old terms, small wonder they didn't insist calling their destroyers as 'torpedoboat destroyers'. Since the old torpedoboats were a dead and buried breed Finns seem to be been using terms destroyer and torpedoboat as pretty much as synonyms when referring to those ships.
Hello Vaeltaja,

T 4 and T 9 were not destroyers, but a 1935 - torpedoboat - class, when the Flottentorpedoboote 1939, from the British a liitle exaggerated and called them with respect the Elbing - destroyers, what was incorrect, becuase they had only 10,5 guns, like the smaller British ecscort-destroyers, and the bigger and the truly Polish destroyer had 10,25 cm cannons, so You can not say, that she was not a destroyer and also You can not say, the Flotttentorpedoboote were destroyers too,, because they were to weak. The Germans knew very well how must must classify. Sorry for my English.

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 16 Jun 2011 19:15

This discussion should really be in its own thread...

Yes, i do know what the Germans called them - what ever designation the Germans used for them does not require others to stick with the same (see 'good old Soviet' ship classes for example - while every one else called Moskva as "Helicopter Carrier" Soviets stuck up with "Anti-submarine Cruiser") - nor does it make the designation some other party used of those ships 'wrong' in any way. One of the Elbings ended up in US navy under designation DD (not DE like it would have been expected had those ships been considered as equivalent of destroyer escorts) - that is to say a 'full fledged destroyer'. It is true that classes before 'Elbings' were weaker and would have been roughly equivalent of DEs under US designations or frigates under British designations.

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by AVV » 16 Jun 2011 20:23

Hello!
Sorry for off-topic post, but
ML wrote:BTW: According to war diary of Utö Fort, Finns seem to have (visually) identified the German ships as "Admiral Hipper and 5 torpedo boats".
I wonder how could be ships with two funnels taken for Hipper with one funnel? IMHO this is one more proof that wartime accounts of witnesses should be analysed with certain degree of carefulness.

Best regards, Aleks

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Mischa » 17 Jun 2011 05:58

AVV wrote:Hello!
Sorry for off-topic post, but
ML wrote:BTW: According to war diary of Utö Fort, Finns seem to have (visually) identified the German ships as "Admiral Hipper and 5 torpedo boats".
I wonder how could be ships with two funnels taken for Hipper with one funnel? IMHO this is one more proof that wartime accounts of witnesses should be analysed with certain degree of carefulness.

Best regards, Aleks
Aleks,
a very good conclusion, indeed!
Regards
Mischa :milwink:

PS - The Americans were always "tasteless"

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Jun 2011 06:14

Hi Aleks,
AVV wrote:I wonder how could be ships with two funnels taken for Hipper with one funnel?
Could you explain me the "funnel thing" you wrote?

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 17 Jun 2011 06:28

Unless the ship was later considerably modified later in the war then Prinz Eugen and Admiral Hipper both had 1 funnel. After all though Prinz Eugen was modified version both were still nominally and in most external respects 'Admiral Hipper' class cruisers.

Funnel ie. the chimney or smokestack of a ship.

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by AVV » 17 Jun 2011 07:23

Hello!
Juha Tompuri wrote:Could you explain me the "funnel thing" you wrote?
Vaeltaja already gave the answer. :)
I could only add that when design of Kriegsmarine ships was created, one of conditions was similarity of their silhouettes - just compare Bismarck and Hipper. Scharnhorst class ships also had similar silhouette (except for 3 turrets instead of 4).
To compare:
http://www.militarydesktop.com/data/med ... 201940.jpg
http://www.battleships.spb.ru/Germ/Hipp ... 42-big.gif
http://www.kbismarck.com/scharn.gif
Still, the destroyers and torpedoboats shared this similarity only among themselves:
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazin ... raw/12.jpg
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazin ... raw/18.jpg
So, it was hard to take German destroyer for German heavy cruiser, but it was not impossible, as the reposrt we speak about show. :)

Best regards, Aleks

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by ML » 17 Jun 2011 08:18

So, it was hard to take German destroyer for German heavy cruiser, but it was not impossible, as the reposrt we speak about show.
- Utö fort misidentified Prinz Eugen as Admiral Hipper, both German heavy cruisers.
- Utö fort also misidentified escorts (3 destroyers and 2 torpedoboats, as Mischa said) as 5 torpedoboats.

So, destroyers were not taken as heavy cruisers. I am not aware what kind of ship silhouette catalogue Finns had for identification, but it may well have had only one silhouette for "Hipper class" cruisers.

War diary of Utö fort: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3247050
Events of 15.–16.9.1944 begin here:http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3247058
(By the way, there's no mention of any message dropped by German plane.)

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Mischa » 17 Jun 2011 08:36

ML wrote:
So, it was hard to take German destroyer for German heavy cruiser, but it was not impossible, as the reposrt we speak about show.
- Utö fort misidentified Prinz Eugen as Admiral Hipper, both German heavy cruisers.
- Utö fort also misidentified escorts (3 destroyers and 2 torpedoboats, as Mischa said) as 5 torpedoboats.

So, destroyers were not taken as heavy cruisers. I am not aware what kind of ship silhouette catalogue Finns had for identification, but it may well have had only one silhouette for "Hipper class" cruisers.

War diary of Utö fort: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3247050
Events of 15.–16.9.1944 begin here:http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3247058
(By the way, there's no mention of any message dropped by German plane.)
Prinz Eugen sent its Arado 196 aircraft to drop a message to Utö, demanding free passage for the leaving German ships.

it was not my sentence. PG send her Arado, but how he got the permision from the Finns? Did the pilot speak with them? He dropped a message and waited for an naswer, with the Aldis-lamp?

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by Mischa » 17 Jun 2011 08:56

T 4 and T 9 were two torpedoboats of the 1935 class (no Flottentorpedoboote 1939 - class), with one funnel and one cannon.

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Mischa

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Re: Utö 1944

Post by AVV » 17 Jun 2011 09:01

ML wrote: Utö fort misidentified Prinz Eugen as Admiral Hipper, both German heavy cruisers.
- Utö fort also misidentified escorts (3 destroyers and 2 torpedoboats, as Mischa said) as 5 torpedoboats.
I see. Then, it really makes more sense, and such mistakes are quite understandable.

Best regards, Aleks

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