Petrovski Jam

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kuuskajaskari
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Petrovski Jam

Post by kuuskajaskari » 24 Jun 2011 14:51

Hello all and have a nice Mid-Summer.

Who is able to locate this monument in the Google Earth map?
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igor_verh
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by igor_verh » 25 Jun 2011 18:00

Petrovski Jam - Петровский Ям, abandoned village
monument near this place:
N 63° 18.811'
E 35° 19.752
At WW2 there was a soviet military hospital №2212.
12 February 1942 it was attacked by finnish saboteurs (Suomen kaukopartiotoiminta) - about 100 men. Many wounded russian soldiers and about 30 doctors were killed and burned alive in buildings. Ilmari Honkanen (or Honkasen?) was the unit commander. Не got an finnish military award for this murders: Order of the Cross of Liberty ("Vapaudenristin ritarikunta"). Sgt. Sulo Ohtonen killed more than 10 russian wounded. 500 soviet soldiers and 300 horses were killed, 90 cars was destroyed. Also 5 finnish soldiers were KIA:
Jussi Kosola
Matti Heyman
Vilio Hulme
Lauri Hintsanen
Kaarlo Koskinen
Some information you may find here:
http://www.bhsuomifinland.net/artikkeli ... nkanen.htm

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Vaeltaja » 25 Jun 2011 22:21

Position seems correct enough, however the Soviet Story is 'slightly biased'.

First those who attacked the supply base of Petrovski Jam were uniformed soldiers on long range patrol. Not saboteurs, spies, partisans, desants or what ever else Soviets tried to paint them but soldiers. Second the village of the Petrovski Jam was used as supply base for the Soviet troops - not 'just as' a location of a field hospital. There was even a Soviet battalion encamped at the site. Placing military hospital into such a site invites collateral damage to it.

Since Finns separately mentioned locating ammunition and fuel stores it seems rather unlikely that Petrovski Jam would have been just a field hospital.

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by kuuskajaskari » 27 Jun 2011 13:42

igor_verh wrote:Petrovski Jam - Петровский Ям, abandoned village
monument near this place:
N 63° 18.811'
E 35° 19.752
OK, thank you.
I believe that it is difficult to go there.
It looks like you must go there around the lake, Vygozero.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jul 2011 20:31

igor_verh wrote: Many wounded russian soldiers and about 30 doctors were killed and burned alive in buildings. Ilmari Honkanen (or Honkasen?) was the unit commander. Не got an finnish military award for this murders: Order of the Cross of Liberty ("Vapaudenristin ritarikunta"). Sgt. Sulo Ohtonen killed more than 10 russian wounded. 500 soviet soldiers and 300 horses were killed, 90 cars was destroyed.
Slava_M wrote: 2. From the database on Soviet losses in Karelia (it was in the same site http://www.soldat.ru/ for some time earlier when I'd copied it, didn't found this table at the site just now):
Dispatch on the personnel losses of Karelian Front units since February 01 till February 28 of year 1942 (specified)
...
Medvezjegorsk (Karhumäki) Operative Group
...
2212 Field Mobile Hospital
killed: 7 officers, 8 NCOs, 10 privates, wounded 3 officers, 1 NCO, 1 private
Field Veterinary Lasaret 445
killed: 1 officer, 1 NCO, 2 privates, wounded 1 private
...
(I think FVL 445 is from the same case)

So it looks like it was some fighting at the hospital, not destroying of it
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t&start=45

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Vaeltaja » 03 Sep 2012 16:52

Noticed something in 'Läpi Tulen ja Veden - Suomi 1939-1945' (en. Through fire and water - Finland 1939-1945) - by Valitut Palat in 1999. It is essentially a collection of short articles of the war. On pages 249-253 there is one named as 'Kadonneet rukkaset' (en. Lost mittens) written by Matti Lukkari according to the descriptions by Paavo Lukkari who was part of Marttina's group (LRRP).

First there is description of how the information regarding Petrovski Jam was received. HQ had ordered Ilmari Honkanen's patrol to capture prisoners 'beyond the eastern shore of Onega' in order to learn logistic organization of Karhumäki (ru. Medvežjegorsk) direction in mid January 1942. They staked out a section of a road and after 2 days of waiting ambushed a pair of trucks. The prisoner they had captured was a Sergeant Major (fin. vääpeli) and the head of the fuel logistics of the area who yielded the information regarding the Petrovski Jam supply center and - according to the writer - was rather eager to yield his information.

Second there is a section about the actual raid.
Detachment started on the evening of 8 February from an island on lake Voljärvi (lake Volozero?). We arrived to shore of river Uikujoki, near the target, after three days of skiing. Our party was split in six. Most important supply depot was on the northern shore of lake Uikujärvi. Group Marmo and demolition expert Sulo Uitto went there with combat engineers from Lagus. Our target was 2 km SE from main village, that too located by the shore. Target was known to consist of equipment storages and barracks. Groups Jouni, Kontula and Hämäläinen had their targets 2-3 km SE from us. Action was to start at all sites on 0200 at 2 February.
..

...Target was clearly visible. It had two two-storey and two single-storey log buildings, all brand new. One of the lower buildings was clearly in use by the garrison since patrolling guardsman visited it periodically. In addition area had couple of timber storages, two busses and 2 trucks...
..

Buildings were assigned for two men teams for destruction. All was ready and there was plenty of time left before the deadline. That was when fire was opened on the northern shore of the lake. We had to start... < lengthy description of close quarters fighting >
..

Meanwhile other teams were dealing with their assigned targets. There was difficulty in igniting the barracks since people inside smothered the Molotov cocktails before the structure caught fire. Satchel charge was beyond them however. Thirty or so men tried to burst out of the burning building rest burned up inside.

Two-storey buildings were built into hospitals. We did not know anything about that. Either patients had just been evacuated or there had been none as they contained only medical staff. I do not know how we would have reacted to these buildings had we been beforehand aware of their purpose. Now it left no pains to conscience.
In other words the patrol had no beforehand knowledge of the existence of the hospital, nor was the hospital marked so that it could have been identified earlier.

Possibly has been posted earlier..

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 10 Sep 2012 14:12

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4471906
The archivements of Petrosvkij-Jam sissi patrol:
500 enemies and 300 horses KIA.
50 different cars completely destroyed,
Incapacitated a convoy of 40 cars.
Destroyed following storages:
- Ammunition depot
- Shell depot
- Clothing depot
- Food depot (a lot of butter and sugar)
- Vegetable depot
- Fuel depot
- Fish depot (several hundred cases of cod)
- Field bakery
- Animal and [human] field hospitals

Burned 60 buildings.
Own losses were 5 KIA and 6 WIA brought back. Taken 5 POWs.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Oct 2012 17:07

At Finnish TV2 channel today 21.00 o'clock a documentary about that raid: "Soviet research about Continuation War: Finnish soldiers destroyed a hospital on purpose"
http://yle.fi/uutiset/venalaistutkimus_ ... origin=rss

Regards, Juha

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 16 Oct 2012 20:07

The claim made by one of the patrol members on the program that the Finns knew about the hospital only few days after the raid is false as one can see from the document I quoted on my last message. It is dated 16 February 1942, the same day the patrol returned.

I have not really looked into the raid but the other claim that all patrol documents were destroyed in 1944 is probably also false. All the previous authors have probably looked only into the archives of Päämaja, Karjalan Armeija and Osasto Lagus but not into the various other unit archives were copies were probably distributed.

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peeved
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by peeved » 16 Oct 2012 21:09

Martti Kujansuu wrote:The claim made by one of the patrol members on the program that the Finns knew about the hospital only few days after the raid is false as one can see from the document I quoted on my last message. It is dated 16 February 1942, the same day the patrol returned.
If the long range patrol raid was conducted on the night of 12th February and the document is from the 16th isn't it entirely possible that the Finns found the existence of the field and veterinary hospitals out between those dates from e.g. radio intelligence or POW interrogation?

Markus

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 17 Oct 2012 03:42

peeved wrote:If the long range patrol raid was conducted on the night of 12th February and the document is from the 16th isn't it entirely possible that the Finns found the existence of the field and veterinary hospitals out between those dates from e.g. radio intelligence or POW interrogation?
Quite possible but it is equally possible based on this single document that the Finns knew at least the approximate location of the hospitals. I personally would have a look into the raid planning documents to find out the whole extent of the Finnish knowledge about the target.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 Oct 2012 06:18

Martti Kujansuu wrote:
peeved wrote:If the long range patrol raid was conducted on the night of 12th February and the document is from the 16th isn't it entirely possible that the Finns found the existence of the field and veterinary hospitals out between those dates from e.g. radio intelligence or POW interrogation?
Quite possible but it is equally possible based on this single document that the Finns knew at least the approximate location of the hospitals.
Nothing at that report at any way indicates that Finns knew about the hospital or the veterinary lasaret before the attack.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Vaeltaja » 18 Oct 2012 08:37

You can't really use the after action report which has been appended with the information learned during the raid as a basis for a claim that there would have been forehand knowledge of the field hospital. Especially since it was dated after the patrol returned - so any information patrol learned during the raid of the base would have likely been included to the report.

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Vaeltaja » 18 Oct 2012 09:08

Link to the short documentary http://areena.yle.fi/tv/1663513 (starts towards the end after 36 min). Will be taken down mid November.

Nothing in the document states that there would have been any information beforehand the attack of the hospital, quite the contrary actually. Not to mention noting that people form hospitals kept shooting at the Finns. Russian claim seems to have been based on the rather wild assumption that since Finns knew that there were buildings they must have also know what they were used for, which is quite a stretch.

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 18 Oct 2012 15:24

The files regarding the raid can be found from e.g. National Archive folder T 9424/8. Information given by the first prisoner, Boris Hohlogorskij (b. 1906), was rather limited. From his interrigation report dated 24 January 1942:

"However [the Group] had to abandon Danilovo as a supply center and the depots were placed to Petrovskij-Jam. This is the location where the Medvezjegorsk Operative Group is supplied from. Units under the Group can also fetch supplies directly from P-J".
[...]
Danilovosta huoltopaikkana oli kuitenkin luovuttava ja varastot sijoitettiin Petrovskij-Jamiin. Täältä käsin huolletaan siis nykyisin Karhumäen Oper.Ryhmä. Myös sen alayksiköt hakevat suoraankin P-J:stä täydennystä.
I was unabled to find the other interrigation reports mentiond on the literature. The plan made before the raid does not mention any details about the storages on the base. It does mention that "the storages must be located by scouting or by taking a prisoner". A relevant quote from the mission report posted after the raid on the targets No. 3:

"Destroying the village was rather quick as the guard was made harmless with a few SMG bursts. Satchel charges and hand granades thrown to the buildings almost completely stopped the enemy resistance. If the troops countered any resistance, it was suppressed with quick and determinated action. After a few minutes into the attack, the combat group was able to set a building on fire. Under the light generated by the fire it was easy to make sure that not many of the enemies was able to escape from the doors and windows".
[...]
"Apart from the sauna, located on the NW edge of the village, all other buildings were set on fire. They consisted of two new and large log buildings (14 x 26 m), five smaller apartments, three seperate buildings and a storage building (4 x 7 m). There were 50 blankets, 50 mattress bags and 40 clothing crates in one of the rooms at the storage building. 30 bags of bedding wrapped into ground sheets were found from another room".
[...]
Kylän hävittäminen kävi nopeasti, sillä vartiomies tehtiin vaarattomaksi muutamalla kp-sarjalla ja sisälle taloihin heitetyt kasapanokset ja käsikr:t lamaannuttivat ryssien vastarinnan miltei täydellisesti. Mikäli vastarintaa esiintyi, se kukistettiin tst.ryhmän nopealla ja määrätietoisella toiminnalla. Jo muutaman minuutin kuluttua hyökkäyksen alkamisesta tst.ryhmä sai yhden talon sytytetyksi tuleen ja sen valossa oli helppo pitää huoli siitä, ettei montakaan vihollista päässyt pakenemaan näiden pyrkiessä ulos talojen ovista ja ikkunoista.
[...]
Kohteen luoteispäässä olevaa saunarakennusta lukuunottamatta poltettiin kylän kaikki rakennukset. Siinä oli 2 isoa uutta hirsirakennusta suuruudeltaan 14 x 26 m., 5 pienempää asuinrakennusta, 3 ulkorakennusta ja yksi varastorakennus, jonka koko oli 4 x 7 m. Yhdessä varastorakennuksen huoneessa oli 50 kpl. peitehuopia ja saman verran patjapusseja sekä n. 40 kollia vaatetavaraa. Toisessa huoneessa oli 30 telttakankaaseen käärittyä nyyttiä liinavaatteita.
[...]
However a message sent after the raid does mention a field hospital. Message No. 5 sent at 8.30 a.m. on 13 February 1942:

"[Coodinates] X = 1500, y = 1500. We completely burned villages [No.] 1, 2, 3, 5 and partly villages 4 and 6. We destroyed a fuel, ammunition and clothing depots by burning them and destroyed 50 cars, 200 horses and a field hospital". [...]
X = 1500, y = 1500. Poltimme kylät 1, 2, 3, 5 kokonaan ja 4, 6 osittain. Tuhosimme polttoaine elin. ja amp. sekä vaat. varastot polttamalla ja 50 autoa, 200 hevosta ja kenttäsairaalan. [...]
There is a rather macabre document attached to the end of the patrol report. It described the many ways by which Finns killed Soviet soldiers during the raid. The document is meant to describe the "fighting spirit and humor" of the Finnish soldiers during the raid. One describes an event where one Vaske kills an unarmed soldier with his own rifle.

Finally the Soviet troops intelligence review combiled by Päämaja's intelligence office on 17 February does not mention any details of the recently destroyed supply base at Petrovskij-Jam other than the existance of the 444th Field Bakery. One POW captured on 29 March 1942 described how the events at Petrovskij-Jam are widely known among the Soviet ranks and that the Soviet losses were 70 men and the Finnish 9 men.

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