Petrovski Jam

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Seppo Jyrkinen
Member
Posts: 317
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 17:51
Location: Finland, Lappeenranta

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 18 Oct 2012 15:49

I made some calculations.

At autumn 1941 there was 1.371 doctors (candidates included) and 4.672 nurses (and some unknown amount of Lottas) to take care of Finnish army's medical service. Army had 480.000 men. Those numbers means ratio 1:79 even if the values had some variation during the war.

Repnikov writes that 28 people of hospital's staff got killed.

Anyhow, if there had been same ratio as in Finland, there had been at least 28x79 = 2.212 soldiers. And there was only a group of wooden buildings, hospital some 14x26 m.

Something won't fit.

---
Corrected a wrong word.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8720
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by peeved » 18 Oct 2012 17:15

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:I made some calculations.At autumn 1941 there was 1.371 doctors (candidates included) and 4.672 nurses (and some unknown amount of Lottas) to take care of Finnish army's medical service. Army had 480.000 men. Those numbers means ratio 1:79 even if the values had some variation during the war.

Repnikov writes that 28 people of hospital's staff got killed.
According to Jatkosodan Historia 6 at most there were 39 military hospitals concurrently in operation with 50 000 sick beds. Assuming there was a correlation between the number of doctors, nurses and Red Cross auxiliaries in Autumn '41 and that of those sick beds would yield 8,27 sick beds per staff member. Assuming the same correlation in Petrovski Jam (lots of assumptions in a row there) one would expect ca. 230 sick beds in the hospital if 28 was the number of the whole medical staff.

Regards.
Markus

Seppo Jyrkinen
Member
Posts: 317
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 17:51
Location: Finland, Lappeenranta

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 19 Oct 2012 05:44

Your calculation is better than mine. A hospital of this size needs more place than one building of 14x26 = 364 m². Beds, technical areas, staff rooms... If I may guess, a hospital of 230 beds need room 2.000 m² or more depending on that what operations medical staff will do.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

Seppo Jyrkinen
Member
Posts: 317
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 17:51
Location: Finland, Lappeenranta

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 19 Oct 2012 16:10

In a book Marttinen - Tikkanen: "Olimme Päämajan kaukopartiomiehiä" is told that Finns killed 300 horses from which 250 had been in a horse hospital (hevoskenttäsairaala). Does anyone know if there really was a hospital for horses?
A word irony is baked into the word history.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11432
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Oct 2012 16:20

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:In a book Marttinen - Tikkanen: "Olimme Päämajan kaukopartiomiehiä" is told that Finns killed 300 horses from which 250 had been in a horse hospital (hevoskenttäsairaala). Does anyone know if there really was a hospital for horses?
Field Veterinary Lasaret 445
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1611108

Regards, Juha

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 20 Oct 2012 09:06

Soviet newspaper Leninskoje Znamja accused the Finns of destroying a field hospital at Petrovski Jam on its No. 68 published on 21 March 1942. According to the claims, Finns destroyed burned all the buildings and killed 25 doctors and nurses. Patrol leader Honkanen wrote following statement against the claims to the head of the Finnish intelligence:

"9 May 1942

After given an opportunity to review the document where the claim of the destruction of a hospital at Petrovskij Jam was printed and given the fact that the information given on that document is probably related to the raid by my unit on 8 - 16 February 1942, I shall announce that non of buildings we destroyed were marked with a red cross nor any other emblem connected to a hospital. The unit did not also observed anything during the raid that could have been interpreted as a sign of a hospital in any of the destroyed targets.

Lt. Ilmari Honkanen"
[...]
9/5 1942

Päämajan Tiedusteluosaston Päällikölle

Saatuani tilaisuuden tutustua asiakirjaan (PM:n Tied.os. Ssaal.asiak. N:o 37.), jossa mm. mainitaan Petrovskij Jam'issa olevan sairaalan tuhoutumisesta ja koska sanotun asiakirjan sisältämä tieto ilmeisesti liittyy allekirjoittaneen johtaman komennuskunnan 8-16/2 1942 tekemään retkeen, jonka yhteydessä tuhottiin Petrovskij Jam'in asutus- ja huoltokeskus, saan vastineena asiakirjassa esitettyyn syytökseen sairaalan tuhoamisesta esittää, ettei mitään tuhoamistamme rakennuksista oltu merkitty Punaisen Ristin merkillä eikä muillakaan sairaalaan viittaavilla tunnuksilla. Myöskään ei komennuskunta hävitystoimintansa aikana havainnut mitään muuta sellaista, mikä olisi viitannut sairaalan olemassa oloon jossakin hävitetyssä kohteessa.

Luutnantti Ilmari Honkanen.
Both the Soviet newspaper article and Honkanen's statement has been previously published at Marttinen's book Ampukaa arvojärjestyksessä! : osasto Marttinan jälkeenjääneet paperit.

User avatar
peeved
Member
Posts: 8720
Joined: 01 Jul 2007 07:15
Location: Finland

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by peeved » 20 Oct 2012 09:54

If the whole hospital (field hospital only?) personnel was 28 and only nine patients were killed when "the buildings were set to fire and the escaping were shot at" ( http://yle.fi/uutiset/venalaistutkimus_ ... origin=rss ) doesn't the ratio of up to ca. 3 personnel per 1 patient seem a bit high compared to e.g. calculations above based on the situation in Finnish Army?

Markus

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5342
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Art » 20 Oct 2012 15:09


Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 20 Oct 2012 18:47

Art wrote:An archival report on losses of the hospital personnel is actually available online:
Care to translate the introduction(?) to the name list and the headers on the list?

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5342
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Art » 20 Oct 2012 20:58

It's rather trivial. In short: herein I submit a list of the Field Mobile Hospital No. 2212 personnel killed when a Finnish group attacked the hospital. A part of the documents were lost in fire, therefore the list is not complete. Attachment: a list of 25 names on two pages.

Seppo Jyrkinen
Member
Posts: 317
Joined: 21 Dec 2010 17:51
Location: Finland, Lappeenranta

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 21 Oct 2012 09:12

How many Russians Finns expected to meet in Petrovski Jam? I think the answer is to be found in official documents. Anyhow, you can assume that because Honkanen had 100 soldiers, Finns expected the garrison to be a quite small. Less than 100 Russians. So small garrisons don't have normally hospitals even is it true that a hospital can serve a larger community.

Amount of medical personnel compared to amount of patients is too big. And so is also the amount of medical personnel compared the size of building. They are far away from normal.

Is it possible that the medical personnel was only temporarily overnight at Petrovski Jam, before transporting to front lines (or back). This only guessing, but would give logical explanation to ratio problems.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1806
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Mangrove » 21 Oct 2012 10:28

Seppo Jyrkinen wrote:How many Russians Finns expected to meet in Petrovski Jam? I think the answer is to be found in official documents.
According to the mission report, Finns had no idea how large, if there was any, the garrison was. The size of the unit was chosen based on the distribution of the buildings in a large area. The order to conduct aerial reconnaissance at and near the P-J was given on 14 January. However due to bad weather the Finnish Air Force could only flew few of such missions as they apparently also flew some missions to find out the exact location of a even larger depot at Puudosi. The village of P-J was also bombed by a single Blenheim on 25 January 1942.

Esa Muikku
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: 02 Jan 2003 01:08
Location: Nokia, FINLAND

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Esa Muikku » 21 Oct 2012 13:14


CF Geust
Member
Posts: 93
Joined: 05 Sep 2006 12:48
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by CF Geust » 21 Oct 2012 14:24

Far from all persons in the list of killled are doctors! Thus

Nr. 1 is Commissar of the hospital
2. Chief doctor(3rd class military doctor)
3. Head of chancelry (2nd class technician-intendent)
4. Head of financial department (2nd class technician-intendent)
5. and 6. Senior Nurse (5. no military rank, 6. military "feldsher")
7. Deputy head of Pharmacy (2nd class technician-intendent)
8., 9. and 10. Junior Nurse (no military rank)
11. Senior Nurse (no military rank)
12 and 13. Junior Nurse (no military rank)
14., 15. and 16. female "weapon person" (no military rank)
17. Senior Sergeant
18. carpenter (Red Army soldier)
19. and 20. sanitary man (Red Army soldier)
21. cook (Red Army soldier)
22., 23., 24. and 25. sanitary man (Red Army soldier)

Thus in the list there is ONE doctor, EIGHT nurses and SIX sanitary men, from which the number of patients in the hospital may be estimated more exactly.
Last edited by CF Geust on 21 Oct 2012 14:56, edited 1 time in total.

Vaeltaja
Member
Posts: 886
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 20:42

Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Vaeltaja » 21 Oct 2012 14:48

I recall having read somewhere that at least some of the wounded would have been evacuated from Petrovski Jam just few days before the attack.

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”