Petrovski Jam

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
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Art
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Art » 21 Oct 2012 15:01

CF Geust wrote: 14., 15. and 16. female "weapon person" (no military rank)
It is "дружинница" not "оружейница". Something like volunteer helper.

CF Geust
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by CF Geust » 21 Oct 2012 15:06

OK, thank you for this correction. Nevertheless there is only ONE doctor (not 25!) in the list.

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 21 Oct 2012 18:43

A Finnish field hospital had 150-200 beds for patients, three operating rooms and over 100 staff, including 7 doctors.
http://www.saunalahti.fi/arnoldus/rintlaak.htm

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by kuuskajaskari » 21 Oct 2012 19:14

I wonder why comparing Russian and Finnish field hospitals.
I`m pleased that this issue is discussed, although the subject was only the location of the monument.

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JTV
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by JTV » 21 Oct 2012 20:13

kuuskajaskari wrote:I wonder why comparing Russian and Finnish field hospitals.
I`m pleased that this issue is discussed, although the subject was only the location of the monument.
To find out what exactly really happened? At least I am starting to wonder if there has been something missing in translation. IMO the information that has surfaced this far seems to suggest that Field Mobile Hospital No. 2212 didn't necessarily fit to description of what Finnish military would have called field hospital, but may have been something more closer to first-aid station (joukkosidontapaikka / JSP in Finnish military vocabulary)? Although what I know Finnish Army didn't usually use civilian staff (nurses) in first-aid stations - probably because due to their close proximity of the frontline for them getting bombarded by Soviet mortars and/or artillery wasn't exactly rare.

The purpose of first-aid station is to provide medical care for normal illnesses that didn't demand hospital care, provide care for the mildly wounded and to prepare more seriously sick/wounded for the transport to field hospital and/or military hospital. Field hospitals were next link of the chain, where more seriously sick and wounded were treated and has surgeons and operating rooms for making surgical operations.

BTW: Anybody reading this topic should also notice that military hospital and field hospital are also not a same thing since the two terms didn't/don't have the same meaning. As noted Finnish World War 2 era field hospital (kenttäsairaaala) had about 150 - 200 beds, several operating rooms and maybe about half-a-dozen doctors. As the name suggests field hospitals were typically also relatively close to frontline ("in the field"). Military hospitals (sotasairaala) on the other hand were located deep to home front and usually had hundreds of beds and dozens of doctors. Typically only patients needing long-term hospital care were transported to military hospitals.

Jarkko

kuuskajaskari
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by kuuskajaskari » 26 Oct 2012 19:37

I believe that this issue will never be conclusive.
The matter can be discussed and should be discussed.

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igor_verh
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by igor_verh » 27 Oct 2012 08:13

Hi! Any way, Soviets used the fact of attack on hospital in their propaganda, which was wery strong at that years, and many finnish soldiers and civilians affected by this.
I have a question: a few hours before the attack on Petrovski Yam finnish scouts captured Soviet sergeant - could they get information from him about the location of soviet forces in village? Were in Honkanen group russian-speaking soldiers? Finns took him to the finnish rear. May be somewhere in finnish archives there an interrogation report of that segeant?

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 27 Oct 2012 21:56

igor_verh wrote:Hi! Any way, Soviets used the fact of attack on hospital in their propaganda, which was wery strong at that years, and many finnish soldiers and civilians affected by this.
Do you mean that there were finnish soldiers and civilians that suffered/died because of the (Soviet propaganda of) Petrovski Jam raid?

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by igor_verh » 28 Oct 2012 07:29

Juha Tompuri wrote: Do you mean that there were finnish soldiers and civilians that suffered/died because of the (Soviet propaganda of) Petrovski Jam raid?
For example - cruelty of Soviet soldiers during the destruction of the Finnish sabotage detachment near the island Vasilisin (east coast of Onego Lake) at March 1942. 1st Partisan Brigade took part in that events. According to the recollections of partisans, they try to not captured finnish saboteurs alive. After battle frozen bodies of KIA finns were brought to their feet and at next day shot by finnish planes - pilots accepted them for partisans.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 30 Oct 2012 21:10

Discussions about Vodla River raid continuing here:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 8#p1744938

/Juha

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Nov 2012 20:47

At Viktor Stepakov book Русские диверсанты против "кукушек" (Russian commandos against "cuckoos.") there is a Soviet report about the Finnish attack against the hospital buildings, made by the hospital staff and the representatives of the political forces Medvezhyegorsky Task Force.
Online translation:
Night from 11 to 12 February the Finnish commando group of 30 people made a daring attack on a military hospital located in the town of Peter Yam. Next quote act on the results of the attack, the hospital and the staff made up by representatives of the political forces Medvezhyegorsky Task Force:
"We, the undersigned, February 13, 1942 made this act as follows:
At 2 am, from 11 to 12 February 1942 a group of Finnish Whites raided a military hospital № 2212, located in the town of Peter Yam.
Despite the fact that the buildings occupied by the hospital, were clearly visible markings medical establishment, the white flag with a red cross, the Finns burned premises, firing from automatic rifles and threw grenades into the hospital, those who committed the brutal massacre of the wounded, lechivshimisya in hospital, and unarmed medical staff, mainly women.
The building is one hospital department was set on fire on both sides of the entrance. The wounded, who were there, jumped out of a burning building in their underwear, and were fired on from the outside and shot inside the building to get there the White Finns. When you exit out of the door one branch bullets fired from a wounded patient Chepelev. Lipska surgeon NI who tried to help Chepeleva, was injured, and Chepelev second shot was killed. In the corridor, one branch was shot and wounded patient Dolgov nurse executive Gulyaev, providing services to patients. In the same building burned patient Malov, which failed to withdraw from the fire.
There have also been set on fire and shelled II and III hospital department, with offices in the premises III killed by shots from automatic rifles and patients Garayev G. X. and Zavaluhin, injured on duty in the department surgeon Gogolev.
In addition, the surgeon shot Gindin, nurses Lubchenco, Afanasiev, Andreev, Sarafanov, Sidorov Kutkova, Rusinov and others, medics Krylov, Yakovlev, Martynov, etc. In total shot of doctors, nurses and orderlies 25 people. and injured five people.
All premises Hospital burnt "
.
Also interesting that:
the day before the attack saboteurs in the hospital slept member of the Military Council of the Karelian front GN Kupriyanov, returning from an inspection tour of the troops Medvezhyegorsky task force.
http://profismart.ru/web/bookreader-111244-23.php

Regards, Juha

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Vaeltaja » 03 Nov 2012 21:34

I have several times wondered about the Soviet claims of the 'clearly visible markings'. According to the accounts from the both sides the attack took place a bit after the midnight in early February. So had the Soviets lit the markings or not? As given the phrasing I'm not sure if the flag was strapped to the building or hanging from a pole so in case of the latter, was it windy enough for a flag to actually be visible? That is it is rather pointless to discuss of 'clearly visible markings' if they were impossible to see in the conditions that prevailed at the time of the attack.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 04 Nov 2012 21:22

Whay were the exact Soviet losses at Petrovski Jam?
Repnikov mentiones here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 5#p1741374
28 hospital (PPG 2212) staff
9 patients
15 civilians
6 prisoners (military, civilian or political?)
ca. 40 Red Army soldiers

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Art » 05 Nov 2012 13:01

According to Repnikov the garrison commander reported 68 men killed and 8 missing. The personnel of the hospital numbered 85 men:
http://stolica.onego.ru/articles/180531.html

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Re: Petrovski Jam

Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Nov 2012 23:26

Art wrote:According to Repnikov the garrison commander reported 68 men killed and 8 missing. The personnel of the hospital numbered 85 men:
Thanks.
The online translation mentions:
Head of the garrison on the following day reported that 68 people were killed and eight were missing. These figures include losses on the hospital.
it appears that all our side killed 72 people. Moreover, 15 of them - were civilians.
But the victims are probably more than 72.
Einar Laydinenu found in Karelia, in the archives of the FSB, the mention of the fact that apart from the military garrison at the Peter Yam was working a column of 400 prisoners who built the road. And the Finns threw several grenades, including, in this location. In the reducible Laydinenym document says the death of 6 people. And I was also able to establish the death of 10 more soldiers from a special working company
What prisoners were they (military, civilian or political) ?
Soldiers from a special working company ?

Regards, Juha

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