Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

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Kokampf
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Re: Depends how you want to look at the matter I guess

#16

Post by Kokampf » 20 Mar 2003, 13:17

JariL wrote:Finnish leaders were accused for the same in our war guilt trial and received sentences up to 10 years in prison. But Leningrad was not specifically mentioned. Any references to Winter War and who was the aggressor then was naturally not allowed in the trial.
It is utterly disgraceful that such a trial should even have taken place! :x

Who held it, and which Finnish leaders were subjected to this travesty? Were the sentences actually carried out, and have the 'verdicts' been overturned since?

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#17

Post by Juha Tompuri » 23 Mar 2003, 01:59

Hi!

Does anybody know the unit code of the "Ghost guns" (AFAIK 180mm) that bombarded Viipuri during the Winter War? ...any links to the Finnish-captured...

Regards, Juha


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"War guilt trials"

#18

Post by JTV » 25 Mar 2003, 08:44

Kokampf wrote:
JariL wrote:Finnish leaders were accused for the same in our war guilt trial and received sentences up to 10 years in prison. But Leningrad was not specifically mentioned. Any references to Winter War and who was the aggressor then was naturally not allowed in the trial.
It is utterly disgraceful that such a trial should even have taken place! :x

Who held it, and which Finnish leaders were subjected to this travesty? Were the sentences actually carried out, and have the 'verdicts' been overturned since?
The "war guilt trials", as they were called in Finland happened because of Soviet demands. They were pretty much case of either Finns sentencing their former political leaders, or Soviets would have done it for them (in which case the sentences would have most certainly been more severe). The longest sentence (10 years in prison) was given to Risto Ryti, who had been Finnish President during Continuation War (1941 - 1944). However, President Paasikivi pardoned him already at 1949 (in other words he served only about 4 years from that 10 year sentence). This was the typical occurance with those sentenced to prison terms in those trials. Majority of ordinary Finns never considered their previous sentenced leaders to be criminals, so many of the sentenced made a career even after their prison sentences. For example Ryti got honorary doctors degree from Helsinki University Faculty of Political Science at 1956. The official rehabilitation happened at 1980's, when Finnish political leadership finally declared publicly what most Finns had known already: All people sentenced in "war guilt trials" had been innocent.

Retrospective legislation was used for prosecution in "war guilt trials". In other words: First the accused did something and law making the thing they did illegal was enacted only after it. This was violation of legal standards and probably also breach of Finnish constitution.

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#19

Post by randwick » 16 Dec 2013, 10:47

.
All of this is largely superficial ,the ONLY thing which mattered was Stalin wishes
HE had a lot of contact with Finland ,
the first time I can find is when he smuggled the money of his Tbilisi hold up out of Imperial Russia
he was in charge of Lenin security during the July 1917 failed coup attempt
and whisked Lenin out of Petrograd to a quiet country back-wood

there was a Finnish civil war later on , of which he would have been aware
but went for normalizing relations , he seems to quite like the Finns but was snobbed by the Poles as a "Russian"

his good feelings didn't stop him from blackmailing them in 1939 , but then again he blackmailled everyone .
the Finns proved to him that they would put a high price on their heads ,
he certainly didn't seems to mind
once the Finns resistance was broken , the peace terms were pretty much those he started with
he could have got more but decided it wasn't really worth the aggro ,
other concerns were rising thick and fast .

when the Finns went for a second round , they took extreme care to stick to their own issues
Hitler mirrored the whole of North-West Russia as a prize ,
pretty much anything they wanted to take , but in their own inimitable way ,they declined
they would fight for their own only and stopped on the Svir , the 1939 border.
Stalin was quite relieved at such development ,
a junction of the Germans and Finns would have sealed the fate of the city
I'm not quite sure about the passivity of the Finnish Army in Karelia
was is because they had no wish to suffer too large losses or to let the Soviets be ?
I certainly believe they could , at a cost, have cut the Murmansk Railways ,for a time .
the logistics would have been against them
the Soviets had an alternate line but it would have been a grievous blow for the Stavka
and they would have fought for it , no matter the cost

the Finland offensive showed that the game was up ,
for the Finnish government the worst had to be avoided ,being integrated as a Soviet republic .
thew peace terms were not light but not harsh either .
president Kerkonen latter made the relations , if not warm , at least correct.
he even got the Soviets to pull out of some of their occupation bases
In Northern Russia ( vologodskaia Oblast ) there didn't seems to be much anti Finns feeling
The Russians were amazed at their toughness and ability to ingest prodigious amount of Vodka
even the militia treated them warily for their propensity to get into fist-fights




Stalin noted this , of course they would have to be crushed but this was just

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#20

Post by PavelKirilovich » 17 Dec 2013, 17:48

Hanski wrote: But for Prof Baryshnikov in recent times, what is his motive to keep publishing only old Stalinist views, when there should be free access for researchers to a wider variety of sources?
It has been my experience with the Russians so recently as the summer of 2013 that there is some sort of resurgence of old political attitudes. They're not overtly Communist, let alone Stalinist. It's more of a Krushchevian-Brezhnevian thing.

The Russians have a very long tradition of using professors and journalists to push out materials which support geopolitical objectives. For example, the Third Section (Third Department, depending on translation) of Nicholas I's Private Chancellery gave a financial reward to a journalist for publishing an article about Russia's historic right to Lithuania. This was in the 1830s.

In conjunction with Putin's efforts to quell the Western drift of Baltic nations (especially given the three Southern Baltic nations have joined NATO), it might be that Professor Baryshnikov is simply carrying on this Russian intellectual tradition.

The purpose of such things is not to sway foreign political opinion, because obviously calling the Finns fascists doesn't work to bring them on to the Russian side in anything. It's to invoke old cultural memories and stereotypes to reduce the domestic recoil from actions the Russian government might take to intimidate other governments.

--

As to discussions about artillery fire, it was recorded that you could walk on the southern side of the street in the lee of buildings much more safely than on the northern side, because most of the artillery fire was coming from the south. I know this from what is said in museums in Saint Petersburg, the former Leningrad. This was not an absolute rule, the Germans could of course fire from more directions than just magnetic south.

--

Regarding the cutting of northern supply routes, that's not historically supported. A major point of friction between German and Finnish commands was that the Finns did not use their units, who were deemed better for operations in Karelian and Arctic terrain, to attempt a major thrust to cut the lines of communication from Murmansk. The most that was done were a series of commando raids by Finnish and some German forces. Until the Lend Lease program began in earnest, supplies did not come from the north, they went to the north: it's also important to remember that only the winter of 1941-1942 was terrible in Leningrad, and that from 1942-1944 the supply situation was much better. There are a variety of factors for this, but in short, the Finns are not culpable for any of Leningrad's suffering.

The Russians don't, in terms of the average Ivan, think so either. At least according to the guys I spoke to and the popular histories on display in Saint Petersburg this past summer.

--

Randwick, I have no idea what you're trying to say.

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#21

Post by randwick » 18 Dec 2013, 07:28

.
Calling the Finns "Fascists" is ridiculous ,
they are not however totally blameless either of the fate of Leningrad hundred of thousands civilians who perished
( including the elder brother of Putin )

standing by , watching your associate butchering children is deemed to be an accomplice in any court of law

the point about the Finns not cutting the Murmansk rail line is as follows
the Finnish government was keenly aware of its limited population ,
they had no intention of bleeding to death
on the military side , arctic fighting had this peculiarity that logistics were much easier in winter than in summer
the Finns would have to trundle through the forest from West to East
while the Soviets could use the railroad up to the point of rupture
this is a mug game , the Finns would have been isolated and pinned on their objective
logistics would have been a trickle
while the Soviets could bring as much reinforcements and supply as they choose
the Finns choose to remain free of movement ,rather than in a toes to toes contest
casualties would have been high with no prospect of holding on

Murmansk could be resupplied by sea and held , if taken,
but the silver Fox operation was pushed by the Germans with lip service from the Finns

the Baltic states are a wholly different issue , as was seen after the war
it doesn't need a Brejnevian mindset to fret at NATO two hours drive from Petersburg

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#22

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 18 Dec 2013, 19:35

Finland also followed the US wish not to cross the old border:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1813576

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#23

Post by randwick » 18 Dec 2013, 22:57

.
Thanks , that make plenty of sense , the U.S. pressure could be seen as a two ways street
Helsinki could see it as source of potential pressure on the Soviet Union to seek a reasonable peace.
as probably was the case

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#24

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 22 Dec 2013, 16:18

At Autumn 1941 Finns were dancing on a rope.

Harvest had been some 60% of need and Sweden had several times - already before Barbarossa - refused to sell foodstuff to Finland. Rangell ja Ryti understood that without Germany's positive attitude a lot of Finns would lost their lives before next harvest.

At same time August-September, Germany wanted Finns to be active against Leningrad:
1) Keitel send a letter to Mannerheim, but he and Ryti formulated a negative answer with "we are too weak" explanations.
2) Germany cut off food deliveries and General Jodl traveled to St. Michael. He got small results: Finns promised to prepare a limited operation, so Germans didn't lose their face. Food shippings started again.
A word irony is baked into the word history.

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#25

Post by randwick » 23 Dec 2013, 07:11

.
Interesting background on the poor harvest ,all over WW2 food emerge as an important factor
a good read on the subject is " The Taste Of War: World War Two And The Battle For Food " by Lizzie Collingham

I've pointed out somewhere else that Sweden and Switzerland were in the same situation
Germany could at will cut off their supplies of food and energy (coal)

famine and freezing in silent factories wasn't exactly a cheerful prospect
those three countries also had strong pro Nazi minorities
while fiercely independent and willing to fight if invaded ,they had their balls in a vice
some goodwill gesture and/or line of credit was extracted from them

Certainly the Finns were careful to keep as much distance with the Reich ideology as they could get away with .

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#26

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 28 Dec 2013, 14:34

On September 8 (1941), (Secretary of State, Cordell) Hull spoke with Finnish Minister Procope in a meeting that revealed Washington’s complicated stance. Hull began the conversation by congratulating Finland on regaining the territory that Russia took in the war of 1939-1940, and then went on to express his concern about Finnish war aims. From the American viewpoint of self defense, he explained, Hitler constituted the greatest immediate threat to the security of the world and the United States. “Without contemplating the slightest injustice to Finland and her best interest,” the United States had no choice but to take a global view of things, and was therefore concerned that Finland would fight alongside Germany to the end of the war.
Procope assured Hull that in his opinion, the Finns occupied Russian territory for security purposes only, and did not intend to fight the war to its conclusion.
Anxious not to encroach on American interests, Helsinki informed Washington the next day that Finland would only continue its offensive until security objectives were met and that Finland would not participate in the siege of Leningrad under any circumstances.
https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/ ... _Mylon.pdf page 119.

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#27

Post by randwick » 02 Jan 2014, 10:45

.
Nice .... this fill some blanks ,there could be some diplomatic lies , or near truths
that's what diplomacy is about , but it certainly ring true and fit with the Finns military posture
I'll be curious to know the U.S. /Soviet side of this discussion ,

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Re: Finland's responsibility in the siege of Leningrad

#28

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 03 Jan 2014, 01:11

Colonel Rosenbröijer from the Finnish GH told the US military attaché Colonel George E. Huthsteiner that Finnish troops don't participate in the siege of Leningrad.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... ly&q3=axis

And confirmed by Finnish foreign minister Witting.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... ly&q3=axis

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