Naval warfare

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Vaeltaja
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Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 14 Dec 2011 08:51

Wondered if there is some valid listing of losses in the Gulf of Finland on the Russian/Soviet side. There are couple of occasions which are present in Finnish literature but at least on a brief check of online source i could not corresponding event for all of them from the Soviet side.

3/7/1941 - Vesikko (sub) - torpedoed and sunk transport/freighter Vyborg
6/7/1941 - Syöksy, Vinha, Raju (MTB) - sunk sailing ship with depth charges
26/7/1941 - Uusimaa (gunboat) - sunk MO-boat PK-238 with gunfire - at Bengtskär
28/8/1941 - VMV-17 - torpedoed and sunk sailing ship - Tallinn evacuation
28/8/1941 - Os. Carring - captured tug Paldisk & I-18 - Tallinn evacuation
2/9/1941 - Syöksy (MTB) - torpedoed and sunk freighter - S of Koivisto/Björkö/Beryozovskoye
22/9/1941 - Syöksy (MTB) - torpedoed and sunk minesweeper Kirov - at Suursaari/Gogland
1/10/1941 - Sisu (MTB) - torpedoed and sunk minesweeper - Fugas-class - at Suursaari/Gogland

Could be more, those are the ones i came across and just thought it might be nice to know if those claimed victories can be tied into known Soviet losses.

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igor_verh
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igor_verh » 15 Dec 2011 12:14

Article about Tallinn evacuation (Таллинский переход):
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0% ... 0%BE%D0%B4
In total, taking into account the dead and dumped in Tallinn in the last days of the defense, was lost over 100 ships. At the transition from the warships were killed 15 units: 5 destroyers ("Fast", "Yakov Sverdlov", "Kalinin", "Volodarsky", "Artyom"), 3 patrol boats ("Snow", "Cyclone", "Topaz "), the gunboat I-8, submarineы Щ-301 and C-5, a small submarine hunter ПЛ № 109, two minesweepers № 56 (" Barometer »), № 71 (" Crab "), and torpedo-boat number 103.

Among the dead auxiliary vessels were transports "Ella", "Vironiya", "Everita", "Meadows", "Ivan Papanin", "Järvamaa", "Alev", "Kalpaks", "Atis Kronvaldis", "Balkhash", "Nayssar "" Ergonautis "," Tobol "," Ausma, "" Skrunda, "" The Second Five-Year Plan ", № 12 tanker, ice-breakers" Krisjanis Valdemars "and CP-13, an armed tug OLS-7 rescue ship" Saturn "and" Kolyvan "floating workshop" Hammer and Sickle "floating base" Vostok ", self-propelled barge CT-1 and other vessels.

Relative loss in humans, there are different estimates. Tributs himself in his memoirs, called the figure of 5,000 dead. The same figures confirm his Chief of Staff, Admiral Panteleyev, in his book. The official publication of the General Staff of the Navy, "Navy of the Soviet Union in World War II," called the loss of about 10 000 people.
Vaeltaja wrote: 3/7/1941 - Vesikko (sub) - torpedoed and sunk transport/freighter Vyborg.
- about this there is some words in book of Ladinskiy U.V."Seaways on the Baltic Sea"(Ладинский Ю.В."На фарватерах Балтики)":
"Nevertheless, the opponent in the third zone only once succeeded. July 3 his submarine torpedo attack as a result of transport sunk "Vyborg""
Vaeltaja wrote: 26/7/1941 - Uusimaa (gunboat) - sunk MO-boat PK-238 with gunfire - at Bengtskär
Here:
http://www.istmira.com/orujie-vtoroi-mi ... index.html
Mo-306 (formerly PK-238) + 07.26.41 at . Bengsher (near Hanko) sunk by art. fire from finnish gunboat «Uusimaa».(Мо-306 (бывш. ПК-238) + 26.07.41 у о. Бенгшер (р-н Ханко) потоплен арт. огнем фин. КЛ «Uusimaa». )
Vaeltaja wrote: 2/9/1941 - Syöksy (MTB) - torpedoed and sunk freighter - S of Koivisto/Björkö/Beryozovskoye
22/9/1941 - Syöksy (MTB) - torpedoed and sunk minesweeper Kirov - at Suursaari/Gogland
Here: http://www.battleships.spb.ru/KO/0196/Torped.html
September 2, 1941 "Seyuksyu" (oberboatswain Ovaskaynen) south Koivisto sunk the Soviet steamer "Meer" (1866 grt), and on September 22 south of Suursaari - converted from a fishing boat PT-29 "Kirov" (633 grt). November 18, 1942 "Seyuksyu", "Vinh" and "Vihuri" entered the harbor Lavensaari and in a bold attack sunk at anchor a large gunboat "Red Flag" (2 сентября 1941 года "Сеюксю" (обербоцман Оваскайнен) южнее Койвисто потопил советский пароход "Мееро" (1866 брт), а 22 сентября южнее Суурсаари - переоборудованный из рыболовного судна РТ-29 "Киров" (633 брт). 18 ноября 1942 года "Сеюксю", "Винха" и "Вихури" проникли в гавань Лавенсаари и в ходе смелой атаки потопили стоящую на якоре большую канонерскую лодку ”Красное знамя”)
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Vaeltaja
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 15 Dec 2011 18:31

Thank you. I'll check those.

Any idea of 'Fugas-class' minesweeper on 1 October near Gogland?

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2011 19:18

Vaeltaja wrote:Wondered if there is some valid listing of losses in the Gulf of Finland on the Russian/Soviet side.
Just in 1941 or during the whole war/both wars?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 15 Dec 2011 19:32

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Vaeltaja wrote:Wondered if there is some valid listing of losses in the Gulf of Finland on the Russian/Soviet side.
Just in 1941 or during the whole war/both wars?

Regards, Juha
During the whole war time. Even though the initial question was seemingly limited to 1941.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2011 20:09

Aha,

I hope for instance igorr could help us here, but here something very general memory based info:
Winter War:
-Submarine S-2 hit mine and sank near Märket 3rd Jan-40
-minesweeper no 32(?) sunk at Saunasaari harbour after a Finnish aerial attack 29th Jan-40

Continuation War:
-several submarines 1941-1943
-captured MTB's and an armored patrol boat in 1941
-cargo steamer Ilga captured at Lake Ladoga Sept-41
-several tugs etc captured at Lake Onega 1941/42
-Several MTB's and MO-boats near Island Someri July-42
-Several Soviet light vessels sunken (one MTB captured) 1944 at Bay of Viborg

Regards, Juha

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2011 20:20


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igor_verh
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igor_verh » 16 Dec 2011 14:17

Vaeltaja wrote: Any idea of 'Fugas-class' minesweeper on 1 October near Gogland?
I did`t find any information about attack on 'Fugas-class' minesweeper yet, but at evening 1 october 1941 submarine "L-3" ("Л-3") was unsuccessfully attacked by torpedo boats, the Finnish "Sisu" and "Vuoli" at anchor in the bay Suurkyulya (near Gogland). Fortunately, they released a torpedo at the target is not hit and exploded 15 yards from the submarine. "L-3" opened fire on boats. According to the P.D. Grishchenko (Грищенко Петр Денисович - commander of the submarine), one of the shells fired from the submarine fell into the engine room of one of the boats and killed its commander.
Losses of minesweepers "Fugas"-type:
minesweeper T-201 "Charge" sunk July 30, 1941 (August 3, 1941?), near Ristna,mine
minesweeper T-202 "Буй" sunk August 14, 1941, m. Yumanda, mine
minesweeper T-203 "Патрон" sunk October 24, 1941, near Kern, a mine
minesweeper T-204 "Фугас" sunk August 23, 1942, near Lavensaari, mine
minesweeper T-206 "Верп" sunk November 13, 1941, near Kern, a mine
minesweeper T-208 sunk by June 23, 1941, north entrance to the Muhu-Vaino (Glotova bank), mines. TCA S35 and S60
minesweeper T-209 "Knecht" sunk August 24, 1941, m. Yuminda, mine
minesweeper T-210 "Gak" sunk May 9, 1943, raid Lavensaari, bottom mine (raised and put into operation), sunk by July 2, 1944, Bay Ola-Lahti, bottom mine (raised)
minesweeper T-212 "Штаг" sunk by August 3, 1941 west part Soelo-Vaino. mine
minesweeper T-213 "Крамбол" sunk August 11, 1941, m. Yuminda (59 ° 46 '8 ". 25 ° 17 ', 2 ") mine
minesweeper T-214 "Бугель" sunk August 24, 1941, near Cerey, mine
minesweeper T-216 sunk August 5, 1941, near Tahkuna (59 ° 09 '5 ". 22 ° 37', 5". ), mine
minesweeper T-218 sunk July 16, 1944, Narva bay, torpedoed TCA?
from http://www.navy.su/other/lost/baltic.htm - losses of Baltic fleet in WW2
On photo 'Fugas-class' minesweepers T-205 "Gafel" and T-210 "Gak",1943
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 16 Dec 2011 16:44

igor_verh wrote:
Vaeltaja wrote: Any idea of 'Fugas-class' minesweeper on 1 October near Gogland?
I did`t find any information about attack on 'Fugas-class' minesweeper yet, but at evening 1 october 1941 submarine "L-3" ("Л-3") was unsuccessfully attacked by torpedo boats, the Finnish "Sisu" and "Vuoli" at anchor in the bay Suurkyulya (near Gogland). Fortunately, they released a torpedo at the target is not hit and exploded 15 yards from the submarine. "L-3" opened fire on boats. According to the P.D. Grishchenko (Грищенко Петр Денисович - commander of the submarine), one of the shells fired from the submarine fell into the engine room of one of the boats and killed its commander.
Well... Finnish reports of the events are somewhat inconsistent. War diary (of the actual motor torpedo boat squadron) states that motor torpedo boats torpedoed two minesweepers off Suursaari. Couple of revisions later it has changed from torpedoed into sunk two minesweepers off Suursaari. Naval history books state that Nuoli and Sisu located two ships on anchor off the Suursaari and attacked them scoring a single torpedo hit. Target is stated to have been a large minesweeper, possibly one of Fugas class. Again another history book states that they sunk a Fugas class minesweeper. However those accounts seem to be conclusive that one torpedo failed to hit (the intended target) but that second one would have and that the target would have been a large minesweeper. Hard to imagine that they would have misidentified a sub with very limited silhouette to a that of a large minesweeper (with nearly destroyer like silhouette). There is no information that another ship (minesweeper, trawler, transport, ...) would have been damaged from the attack? Granted Finns could not linger to check for damages but had to scoot so a near miss could have been identified as an impact.

Also from the accounts there are no mentions of any Finnish losses. Some losses occurred some time earlier with Soviet destroyed caught Finnish motor torpedo boats off guard - 19 July 1941. One boat was damaged and only rather desperate attack by one of the boats allowed the damaged boat to be towed into safety of Finnish minefields.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 16 Dec 2011 17:10

Going through Igorr's source, listing the untranslated entries
-Submarine S-2 hit mine and sank near Märket 3rd Jan-40
-minesweeper no 32(?) sunk at Saunasaari harbour after a Finnish aerial attack 29th Jan-40
Source seems to be limited GPW, not to WWII.
-captured MTB's and an armored patrol boat in 1941
..
VTV-1: БК-215 23 августа 1941 в повр. состоянии захвачен финнами в Выборгском зал. (у о. Паатио), в составе фин. Онежской воен. фл. как VTV1, после 4 сентября 1944 возвращен СССР
V1: № 64 в декабре 1941 захвачен финнами, в составе ВМС Финляндии ТКА V-1 «Виима», после сентября 1944 возвращен СССР
V2: № 141 в декабре 1941 захвачен финнами, в составе ВМС Финляндии как ТКА V-2 «Вихури», после сентября 1944 возвращен СССР
V3: ТК-51 захвачен фин. кор. в ночном бою 17 июня 1944 в Финском зал. (в составе ВМС Финляндии - ТКА V3, после сентября 1944 возвращен СССР)
Vasama: № 52 14 октября 1941 захвачен финнами у о. Суурсаари (в ВМС Финляндии СКА «Васама», в 1944 г. возвращен СССР)
-cargo steamer Ilga captured at Lake Ladoga Sept-41
-several tugs etc captured at Lake Onega 1941/42
At least some of those were not armed (ie. civilian, not military) then they might not appear in the list, if it extends into the lakes.
-Several MTB's and MO-boats near Island Someri July-42
..
D-3 (MTB):
№ 22 потоплен 8 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, береговой артиллерией
W-4 (MTB):
№ 83 потоплен 10 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, артиллерийским огнем фин. кор. и береговой артиллерией
G-5 (MTB):
№ 31 потоплен 8 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, артиллерийским огнем фин. кнл. «Уусимаа»
№ 123 потоплен 22 мая 1942, Ленинград, поднят и введен в строй; потоплен 10 июля 1942, р-н о. Соммерс, артиллерийским огнем фин. и нем. кор.
№ 73 потоплен 8 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, артиллерийским огнем фин. кнл
№ 71 потоплен 8 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, береговой артиллерией
№ 121 потоплен 8 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, сел на камни, разбит береговой артиллерией
№ 113 потоплен 8 июля 1942, о. Соммерс (60°17',5" с. ш. 27°30',8" в. д.), артиллерийским огнем фин. кнл
M-4 (PTB)
МО-306 потоплен 9 июля 1942, о. Соммерс, береговой артиллерией
Igorr, http://www.navy.su/other/lost/baltic.htm seems to be a superb resource even in its current state (it seems its still under construction/verification), thank you.

Ladoga: http://www.navy.su/other/lost/ladozh.htm
Onega: http://www.navy.su/other/lost/onezhsk.htm

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 19 Dec 2011 03:37

6.7.41 - no trace of losses in soviet sources. Perhaps, estonian fishing vessel.
Tugs PALDISKI and I-18 captured 29.8.41 on 05.30 by finnish MTB's with 16 seamans and 34 soldiers on board.
VMV-17 AFAIK has no torpedoes.
2.9.41 was sunk VT-542 MEERO
1.10.41 all was like igor_verh wrote. Torpedo detonated 15 meters from L-3 inflicted some light damage. Sub fired at enemy 12*100-mm and 20*45-mm shells. I think some Fugas-minesweepers may be present (they escorted subs commonly), but i don't know this for sure. No minesweepers was sunk or damaged. MTB's may fired torpedo on M/S but missed and explosoins proected on M/S siloutte make finns believe that was hit. Such cases happen all the war on all sides.
As to losses, if you gave me dates of attacks or finnish claims, i can check it.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 19 Dec 2011 08:55

6-7.7.41 - Finnish accounts state that motor torpedo boats Syöksy, Vinha (& Raju) attacked one of the Soviet convoys, consisting of three sailing ship escorted by patrol boats headed to Hanko from south. Launched torpedoes did not either hit or detonate, partially because of the heavy seas, so Syöksy attacked with depth charges, dropping a set of them just in front of one of the sailing ships. Which then detonated under the sailing ship.

VMV-17 was part of motor torpedo boat squadron in 1941 and as of such it was equipped with two 45 cm torpedoes and set of 20 mm guns. The torpedoes were removed before sailing season of 1942 started though. 'Finnnish MTBs' were in reality torpedo armed VMV-boats. And the target was a sailing ship - schooner Atta.

Ok, thought there had to be a minesweeper present, misidentifying a sub for a minesweeper would have been a bit over the top.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 Dec 2011 09:14

Vaeltaja wrote:Ok, thought there had to be a minesweeper present, misidentifying a sub for a minesweeper would have been a bit over the top.
22/9 1941 MTB Syöksy sinks auxiliary sweeper T 41 Sergei Kirov in Suursaari harbour.
1-2/10 1941 MTB Nuoli and Sisu attack enemy ships in Suursaari harbour, without results.
http://kotisivut.fonet.fi/~aromaa/Navyg ... meline.htm
http://kotisivut.fonet.fi/~aromaa/Navyg ... eline2.htm
http://kotisivut.fonet.fi/~aromaa/Navyg ... index.html

Some additional info:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=163089

Regards, Juha

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 19 Dec 2011 09:46

Well, if we say about ATTA: 28.8.41 attacked by finnish MTB's that try to capture she, but was repulsed by gunfire of crew and soldiers on board. Then finns retreat to some distance and started to fire from guns. Schooner was heavily damaged and half-sunk when finns desapeared. Then ATTA sunk in storm on 03.50 29.8.41. This was "soviet look".
6/7.6.41 no any trace about fighting with finnish ships, but my data is not complete.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 19 Dec 2011 09:47

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3749755 - MTBs Syöksy & Vinha were attacked by Soviet tugboat at grid 143d97 (E of Kronstadt) at 02.16 a.m. on 10 June 1942. The tugboat opened fire at 1200 meters with one 57 mm and one 40-45 mm cannons. The boat was too small for torpedoes and thus was not attacked by the MTBs.

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