Naval warfare

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igorr
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 19 Dec 2011 16:03

02.25 wachtship LK-2 (СКР ЛК-2) was attaked by one enemy MTB near Diomid bank. Attack was repulsed, MTB retreated.
This was indeed steam tug, 140 t displacement, 1*45-mm and 2*7.62-mm. 15.7.42 sunk on mine while towed barge from Leningrad to Lavensaari.

Mangrove
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 20 Dec 2011 10:59

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3603888 and http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3209085 - Gunboat Hämeenmaa from Kev.LOs and a coastal battery from RTR 12 engaged six Soviet MTBs 7 NM south of Kotka's Vanhankylänmaa at 01.05 a.m. on 16 June 1942. Two explosions were observed.

igorr
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 20 Dec 2011 12:39

strange, but no trace for this engagment. I'll try to ask some more knowing people.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Ingwar » 20 Dec 2011 19:21

Soviet losses (as a result of Finnish navy actions):

Surface warships

Destroyer “Yakov Sverdlov”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Destroyer “Volodarskiy”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Destroyer “Engels”, mine (Juminda minefield), 24.08.41
Destroyer “Artjem”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Destroyer “Kalinin”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Destroyer “Skoriy”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Destroyer “Suroviy”, mine (Juminda minefield), damaged, sank by crew, 14.11.41
Gunboat “Kronshtadt”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Guard ship “Tziklon”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 29.08.41
Guard ship “Sneg”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Guard ship “Virsajtis”, Hanko evacuation, mine, 03.12.41
Guard ship “Topaz”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 29.08.41
Minelayer “Surop”, mine, Moonzund, 11.08.41
Minesweeper “Kljuz”, Hanko evacuation, mine, 25.11.41
Minesweeper T-299, mine, Soela strait, 01.07.41
Minesweeper “Buj”, mine (Juminda minefield), 15.08.41
Minesweeper “Patron”, mine, Keri island, 25.10.41
Minesweeper “Verp”, mine, Keri island, 14.11.41
Minesweeper “Kneht”, mine, Keri island, 24.08.41
Minesweeper “Shtag”, mine, Soela strait, 03.08.41
Minesweeper “Krambol”, mine (Juminda minefield), 11.08.41
Minesweeper “Bugel”, mine, Keri island, 24.08.41
Minesweeper “Krab”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Minesweeper “Sergey Kirov”, torpedo boat “Syoksy”, 22.09.41
Minesweeper ”Barometer”, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Minesweeper №42, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Minesweeper №45, mine, Bjerkezund, 21.06.44
Minesweeper №80, mine, Moonzund, 18.18.41
Minesweeper №84, mine, Bjerkezund, 21.06.44
Patrol boat MO-109, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Patrol boat MO-301, mine, Hanko, 14.11.41
Patrol boat MO-238, artillery finnish gunboat “Uusimaa”, Bengskar, 26.07.41
Patrol boat MO-143, mine, Moonzund, 30.06.41
Patrol boat MO-311, mine, Hanko evacuation, 12.10.41 (damaged, sunk by crew)
Patrol boat MO-306, coastal battery, Someri, 09.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-22, gunboats “Uusimaa” and “Hameenmaa”, Someri, 08.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-31, coastal battery, Someri, 08.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-71, coastal battery, Someri, 08.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-83, gunboats “Uusimaa” and “Hameenmaa”, Someri, 08.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-113, gunboats “Uusimaa”, Someri, 08.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-123, gunboats “Uusimaa” and “Hameenmaa”, Someri, 08.07.42



Merchant ships

“Krimulda”, 1970 t, mine, Moonzund, 30.06.41
“Vyborg”, 3183 t, submarine “Vesikko”, Narva bay, 03.07.41
“Aksel Karl”, 3500 t, mine, Vaindlo island, 07.08.41
“Vodnik”, 1251 t, mine, Juminda minefield, 14.08.41
“Utena”, 542 t, mine, Juminda minefield, 14.08.41
“Leeni”, 1842 t, mine, Juminda minefield, 21.08.41
“Truvor”, icebreaker, mine, Juminda minefield, 25.06.41
“Ella”, 1523, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Krisjanis Valdemars”, 1932 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Vironia”, 2026 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Alev”, 1446 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Luga”, 2391 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Everita”, 3251 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Jarvamaa”, 1363 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Balkhash”, 2191 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
“Naissaar”, 1892 t, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 29.08.41
“Meero”, 1866 t, torpedo boat “Syoksy”, Bjerkezund, 02.09.41
“Andrej Jdanov”, 3870 t, mine, Hanko, 12.11.41
“Josif Stalin”, 7645 t, mine, Hanko evacuation, 03.12.41
“Atta”, sailing schooner, Tallin evacuation, VMV-17, 28.08.41
“Hildana”, sailing schooner, Tallin evacuation, captured by finnish torpedo boats, 29.08.41

Submarines

S-7, submarine “Vesihiisi” (torpedo), 21.10.42
Shch-302, aviation, 14.10.41
Shch-305, submarine “Vetehinen” (ram), 05.11.42
Shch-308, submarine “Iku-Turso” (torpedo), 26.10.42
Shch-311, patrol boat VMV-13 and VMV-15 (depth charge), 15.10.42
Shch-406, minelayer “Riilahti” (depth charge), 01.06.43
M-97, patrol boat VMV-5 (depth charge), 11.09.42
Shch-317, minelayer “Ruotsinsalmi” (depth charge), 15.07.42
Shch-408, minelayer “Riilahti” (depth charge), 24.05.43
P-1, mine, Hanko, after 09.09.41
S-5, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Shch-301, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
S-11, mine, Soela strait, 02.08.41
S-12, antisubmarine forces, 02.08.43

Ingwar
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Ingwar » 20 Dec 2011 20:06

One's remarks

Transports "Ivan Papanin", "Kalpaks", "Atis Kronvaldis", " Ergonautis "," Tobol ", " Skrunda, " The Second Five-Year Plan " was sunk by German aviation, not on Finnish minefilds.

Gunboat “Krasnoe Znamja” rose and repaired in 1944. IMHO, this ship was “damaged and repaired”, not “sunk” (similar as Finnish minesweeper “Porkkala”)

Ingwar
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Ingwar » 20 Dec 2011 20:10

[quote="igor_verh"]Article about Tallinn evacuation (Таллинский переход):
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A2%D0% ... 0%BE%D0%B4


Among the dead auxiliary vessels were transports "Ella", "Vironiya", "Everita", "Meadows", "Ivan Papanin", "Järvamaa", "Alev", "Kalpaks", "Atis Kronvaldis", "Balkhash", "Nayssar "" Ergonautis "," Tobol "," Ausma, "" Skrunda, "" The Second Five-Year Plan ", № 12 tanker, ice-breakers" Krisjanis Valdemars "and CP-13, an armed tug OLS-7 rescue ship" Saturn "and" Kolyvan "floating workshop" Hammer and Sickle "floating base" Vostok ", self-propelled barge CT-1 and other vessels.


igor_verh, "Meadows"="Луга" ?

Vaeltaja
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 20 Dec 2011 20:27

Krasnoe Znamja, just like Finnish gunboat Turunmaa and Transport/minesweeper/minelayer (depends who lists it) Porkkala, belongs to category sunk, re-floated and repaired (or something close to it). As regardless of later events the ship was sunk.

Also ships sunk as Juminda are far more likely to be victims of German laid than Finnish laid mines. Actually most losses related to Tallinn are likely to have been caused by German action. Also for that matter I'm not aware that Finns would have laid mines (at least in Continuation War) to Hiiumaa or Saaremaa region (West Estonian archipelago) so those losses are again likely to have been caused by German action.

Also the list seems to be lacking some of the losses, at least from Hanko evacuation, possibly elsewhere.

igorr
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 21 Dec 2011 02:54

Martti Kujansuu wrote:http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3603888 and http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3209085 - Gunboat Hämeenmaa from Kev.LOs and a coastal battery from RTR 12 engaged six Soviet MTBs 7 NM south of Kotka's Vanhankylänmaa at 01.05 a.m. on 16 June 1942. Two explosions were observed.
Well, thanks to Miroslav Morozov, i can tell you everething what happend from soviet side.
15.6.42 6 TKA go to the sea for mining operation - Nrs. 71, 81, 101, 121 with mines and Nrs. 122 and 132 with torpedoes.
00.40 16.6.42 from Kilpisaari island was opened fire with 8-10 inch guns. Shells hit sea 10-15 meters away from cutters and Nr. 122 was damaged with splinters. MG's ammunition started to burn but was quickly extinguished.
00.45 enemy started to fire at TKA from Hohland area, 45-mm guns appr., and 00.50 - from Aspe (2 guns 4inch) and Veitkeri (1 gun 3inch). 00.58 started to fire battery from Askeri island (2 guns 4inch).
All the time Nr. 132 make smoke-screen. 01.10-01.13 TKA's dropped mines, then retreat.
No hits was received, no casualties suffered.

igorr
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 21 Dec 2011 03:52

Ingwar wrote:Soviet losses (as a result of Finnish navy actions):
Destroyer “Engels”, mine (Juminda minefield), 24.08.41
It is hard to say which mine sunk this ship, but germans make more minefields in this area then finns. Same true for others ships lost near Jumindanina.
Ingwar wrote: Minelayer “Surop”, mine, Moonzund, 11.08.41
Minesweeper T-299, mine, Soela strait, 01.07.41
Minesweeper “Shtag”, mine, Soela strait, 03.08.41
Minesweeper №80, mine, Moonzund, 18.18.41
Patrol boat MO-143, mine, Moonzund, 30.06.41
Finns didn't mined these areas AFAIK
Ingwar wrote: Torpedo boat TKA-113, gunboats “Uusimaa”, Someri, 08.07.42
Torpedo boat TKA-123, gunboats “Uusimaa” and “Hameenmaa”, Someri, 08.07.42
That was 10.7.42 and you forget TKA Nr. 121 on 8.7.42.
Ingwar wrote: Shch-302, aviation, 14.10.41
This is only one of many versions.
Ingwar wrote: Shch-308, submarine “Iku-Turso” (torpedo), 26.10.42
This attack was headed to Shch-307 and she escaped unhurt.
308's sunk most likely on mine 21-23.10.42
Ingwar wrote: Shch-311, patrol boat VMV-13 and VMV-15 (depth charge), 15.10.42
Only one of versions, very weak. Sub was too far away from point of attack day before, when last radioed to base. No trace of this finnish attack in german KTB. It is present in finnish digitized documents?
Ingwar wrote: Shch-406, minelayer “Riilahti” (depth charge), 01.06.43
According to M. Morozov, sunk by mine or germans aux. minesweepers.
Ingwar wrote: M-97, patrol boat VMV-5 (depth charge), 11.09.42
Sub was located at bottom on 1990 - sunk by mine from Nashorn-sperre.
Ingwar wrote: Shch-408, minelayer “Riilahti” (depth charge), 24.05.43
Sub sunk in gun-battle with germans MFP's. When finns arrived, she was already on bottom.
Ingwar wrote: Shch-301, Tallin evacuation, mine (Juminda minefield), 28.08.41
Minefield F 22 laid by RIILAHTI and RUOTSINSALMI
Ingwar wrote: S-12, antisubmarine forces, 02.08.43
No appropriate claims - most likely, sub sunk on german mine.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 21 Dec 2011 08:01

Shch-308, submarine “Iku-Turso” (torpedo), 26.10.42

This attack was headed to Shch-307 and she escaped unhurt.
308's sunk most likely on mine 21-23.10.42
This has been discussed in quite a detail, and it is (actually IIRC it was pretty much from the start) agreed that Iku-Turso first encountered Shch-307 in poor visibility and then lost it after shooting at it with guns (not torpedoes). While hunting for the Soviet sub Iku-Turso came across another Shch class boat (which it believed to be the same) which it sunk with torpedoes. Finns never knew which sub it was that they had sunk, only that torpedo detonated, sub disappeared and at the site of the torpedo impact there was large pillar of oil flowing to the surface.

Target is AFAIK either Shch-308 or Shch-320.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 21 Dec 2011 08:48

I can't remember if i participate in this discussion, maybe it take place before me.
Facts from soviet docs say clearly: 19.16 26.10.42 SCHC-307 surfaced and go to swedish shore. There was heavy rain and visibility around half cable when unknow sub was encountered on 20.44. SCHC-307 made emergency dive and surfaced again only in 21.31 to charge its battery.
On 27.10.42, 01.00, sub in position 60.05 N - 19.10 E was attacked from unkonow sub by 2 torpedoes. Make evasive manouver, sub dived again.
After war soviet side accuired finnish documents about this attack, which fit completely. IKU-TURSO fired 2 torpedoes in 00.58.
There is no room to make another theory.

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Dec 2011 08:57

igorr wrote:
Ingwar wrote: Shch-408, minelayer “Riilahti” (depth charge), 24.05.43
Sub sunk in gun-battle with germans MFP's. When finns arrived, she was already on bottom.
According to P-O Ekman, the sub (Shch-408, JT) was sighted surfaced and attacked 21/22 by German MFP barges off Vaindlo. The sub was hit to the stern and it dived without returning to the fire from the German vessels.
Then the german vessels had run out of depth charges, and on the morning 22th the Ruotsinsalmi and VMV 6 came to the area, to release the German vessels.For the next two days the Finnish vessels both dropped depth charges and with sonic detector, listened the sub moving. Also a fuel trail on the water marked the sub movements. On morning 24th Riilahti also came to the scene, and when the sub tried to escape with full speed (submerged) it was detected and depth charged.
The first two depth charges brought up oil, debris and ca. 20-30m diameter air bubbles.
Ruotsinsalmi stayed at the area, noticing the oil spreading.
No mentions about any aerial activity from either side
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1038741
Vaeltaja wrote:
Shch-308, submarine “Iku-Turso” (torpedo), 26.10.42

This attack was headed to Shch-307 and she escaped unhurt.
308's sunk most likely on mine 21-23.10.42
This has been discussed in quite a detail, and it is (actually IIRC it was pretty much from the start) agreed that Iku-Turso first encountered Shch-307 in poor visibility and then lost it after shooting at it with guns (not torpedoes). While hunting for the Soviet sub Iku-Turso came across another Shch class boat (which it believed to be the same) which it sunk with torpedoes. Finns never knew which sub it was that they had sunk, only that torpedo detonated, sub disappeared and at the site of the torpedo impact there was large pillar of oil flowing to the surface.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1033150 on.
Vaeltaja wrote:Finns never knew which sub it was that they had sunk
Vaeltaja wrote:Target is AFAIK either Shch-308 or Shch-320.
Seems so.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 21 Dec 2011 09:53

igorr wrote:...SCHC-307 made emergency dive and surfaced again only in 21.31 to charge its battery....
Did the sub dive or surface again after that before 0100 (Moscow time?)

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 21 Dec 2011 11:21

Vaeltaja, i don't know for sure about diving and surfacing.
SCHC-320 that time was already on bottom (most possible, if she hit mine during break out to sea), or on their position near Bornholm if she has broken radio and survived break out. She can't be near IKU-TURSO by any means.

SCHC-408:
3 MFP fired upon sub from 700 m 10 minutes, clearly see several hits 7.5-cm in hull. Sub stopped and sunk with heavy list to stern. Bow raged from water 1 minute after sinking. There was huge bubbling and oiling, two big wooden piece. Then finnish minelayer joyned to hunt. She discovered sub with acoustic device and bombed in some pass. MFP didn't run out WB, they only has no bouys to mark place of sinking. And they not leave place of sinking, stay there to 00.20 23.5.43, when sub started to blow their tanks to surface, but can only slightly lift herself over bottom. Air run to surface through peppered tanks; MFP dropped 4 more WBF after 05.00 and sub then lay on bottom without life signs. This is taken directly from Gefechtbericht 24 L.-Flottille, MFP 188/189/191.
Finnish minelayer may be credited with shared victory but their role was auxilliary to MFP.
Bombing of 24.5.43 was headed to another sub - SCHC-303. They can escape and return to base.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 21 Dec 2011 11:38

igorr wrote:Vaeltaja, i don't know for sure about diving and surfacing.
SCHC-320 that time was already on bottom (most possible, if she hit mine during break out to sea), or on their position near Bornholm if she has broken radio and survived break out. She can't be near IKU-TURSO by any means.
That however is quite important since if it didn't dive again then 307 could not have been the sub targeted by Iku-Turso

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