Naval warfare

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Mangrove
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 21 Dec 2011 11:49

igorr wrote: 15.6.42 6 TKA go to the sea for mining operation - Nrs. 71, 81, 101, 121 with mines and Nrs. 122 and 132 with torpedoes.
00.40 16.6.42 from Kilpisaari island was opened fire with 8-10 inch guns. Shells hit sea 10-15 meters away from cutters and Nr. 122 was damaged with splinters. MG's ammunition started to burn but was quickly extinguished.
Thank you for the information! Finnish witnesses describe the small fire as a "powerful explosion". Also later on the same day VMV 17 was patrolling the area and she found pieces of wooden planks and one larger piece belonging to a hull. These lead Finns to believe that at least one of the ship was sunk. - http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3613502.

igorr
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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 21 Dec 2011 16:42

2 Vaeltaja:
Then what about two torpedoes seen by SCHC-307 same time when IKU-TURSO fired them?

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 21 Dec 2011 17:49

Late in the autumn, at midnight, in rather poor weather (visibility dropping to 100 m at times), in Baltic Sea? I'm more than a bit dubious that any torpedoes could have been seen.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Dec 2011 20:06

Vaeltaja wrote:Krasnoe Znamja, just like Finnish gunboat Turunmaa and Transport/minesweeper/minelayer (depends who lists it) Porkkala, belongs to category sunk, re-floated and repaired (or something close to it). As regardless of later events the ship was sunk.
Agree about KZ and Porkkala, but AFAIK Turunmaa was beached to prevent sinking.

According to the minelayer Ruotsinsalmi logbook http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2965680 :
igorr wrote: SCHC-408:
3 MFP fired upon sub from 700 m 10 minutes, clearly see several hits 7.5-cm in hull. Sub stopped and sunk with heavy list to stern. Bow raged from water 1 minute after sinking. There was huge bubbling and oiling, two big wooden piece.
Do you know the date/time?
igorr wrote:finnish minelayer joyned to hunt. She discovered sub with acoustic device and bombed in some pass.
AFAIK minelayer Riilahti was there from the 22th May, minelayer Ruotsinsalmi arrived at the area (there were Riilahti and 3 MFP) 1053 hours 23th May.
igorr wrote:MFP didn't run out WB, they only has no bouys to mark place of sinking. And they not leave place of sinking, stay there to 00.20 23.5.43
On it's way to the area where Riilahti had kept contact to the enemy submarine, Ruotsinsalmi met 5 German MFP's and a escort vessel.
igorr wrote:when sub started to blow their tanks to surface, but can only slightly lift herself over bottom. Air run to surface through peppered tanks; MFP dropped 4 more WBF after 05.00 and sub then lay on bottom without life signs. This is taken directly from Gefechtbericht 24 L.-Flottille, MFP 188/189/191.
During 23th there were also Finnish VMV patrol boat and German barges ( F-273 mentioned)
igorr wrote:Finnish minelayer may be credited with shared victory but their role was auxilliary to MFP.
Shared victory sounds correct.
igorr wrote:Bombing of 24.5.43 was headed to another sub - SCHC-303. They can escape and return to base.
Hard to say - any evidence?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 22 Dec 2011 02:41

Vaeltaja wrote:Late in the autumn, at midnight, in rather poor weather (visibility dropping to 100 m at times), in Baltic Sea? I'm more than a bit dubious that any torpedoes could have been seen.
And surprisingly, they see "false" torpedoes exactly when they was really fired by IKU-TURSO? Sounds fantastic. Artillery fire, recorded by SCHC-307after torpedoes pass was false too?
We here have translation of report IT commander about attack. When SCHCH-307 dived, IT begin try to locate her with acoustic, but unable to do this. As IT stops to listening, SCHCH-307 can leave them behind. Only when SCHC surfaced finns can locate her again. Btw, this time (23.00msk) moon rised and visibility improved much. Commander of IT in his report in fact stated, that torpedoes missed enemy sub passing near her bow.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 22 Dec 2011 03:32

About 408's.
There was 9 german MFP on U-beobachtung west from Nashorn-sperre from 21.5.43, divided to 3 groups. And two soviet subs trying to break out in Baltic - SCHC-303 and 408. All in appr. one big area of sea.
One group (II, MFP 195 and 203) on 21.5.43 in 14.25 sightet 303's on surface and attack her, without visible result. One man (Galkin) was taken POW this time.
Second group (I) first discovered SCHC-408 on 21.5.43, 15.20 with help of finnish aircraft. 21 WBF was dropped in first stage around 17.00, 5 WBF in second around 21.30. Oil and air was seen. MFP registered with acoustic sounds of working pump.
MFP stay on place and in 00.49 22.5.43 located sub on surface and fired upon her til 02.00 when she submerged as i described early. 4 direct hits from 7.5-cm and 2 from 3.7-cm clearly observed. 04.15 minelayer joined to hunt but first attacks conduct in wrong place. Then in 04.50 big oil spot was discovered and bombed by minelayer. Then battle was over for this day - no attacks according gefechtbericht was made. Only 00.20 23.5.43 in place was big air bubble seen and to 05.20 F.188 dropped 4 more WBF. Then all was over for SCHCH-408. No additional minelayers mentioned.
23.5.43 II and III groups hunted another place, obviously retreating SCHC-303 (sub on return reported many attacks headed to her). F.273 belonged to III group
Sadly, i can't read and understand any finnish documents...

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 22 Dec 2011 09:34

igorr wrote: Second group (I) first discovered SCHC-408 on 21.5.43, 15.20 with help of finnish aircraft.
Btw, which aircrafts and units used by finns for A/S patrols? Ex-soviet SB was striken by 1943?

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 22 Dec 2011 10:33

igorr wrote:And surprisingly, they see "false" torpedoes exactly when they was really fired by IKU-TURSO? Sounds fantastic. Artillery fire, recorded by SCHC-307after torpedoes pass was false too?
We here have translation of report IT commander about attack. When SCHCH-307 dived, IT begin try to locate her with acoustic, but unable to do this. As IT stops to listening, SCHCH-307 can leave them behind. Only when SCHC surfaced finns can locate her again. Btw, this time (23.00msk) moon rised and visibility improved much. Commander of IT in his report in fact stated, that torpedoes missed enemy sub passing near her bow.
Seeing muzzleflashes i can believe.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3756305 - Iku turso war diary
26.10.42 - 1930: Arrived to point 60°04' N, 19°04' E where turned left to heading 100°
26.10.42 - 1940: General quarters. enemy sub sighted 100 m off the bow with heading off ~320°. It passed us at a distance of 30 m from the left. Opened fire with Madsen automatic gun. Several hits. After shooting enemy was no longer in sight. Presumably it dove. Hydrophone contact was not immediately achieved.
26.10.42 - 2030: Hydrophone contact with target was achieved and tracking of the target was started
26.10.42 - 2351: Conning tower of an enemy sub surfaced at the direction indicated by the hydrophone. All ahead full/flank was ordered and sub was maneuvered towards enemy.
26.10.42 - 2355: Enemy fully surfaced. Enemy headed towards east at good speed.
26.10.42 - 2358: Fired double shot from bow tubes at the enemy. Aiming factors: speed 12 knots, target angle 100°, aiming angle 16°. Closing with the target continued.
27.10.42 - 0000: Opened fire with Bofors deck gun. Fired 5 shells.
27.10.42 - 0001.15: Detected torpedo impact on midships of the enemy sub, rear of the conning tower. Enemy sunk swiftly. Continued to the sinking location at best speed. Location was not immediately found.
27.10.42 - 0130: Vetehinen arrived on site.
27.10.42 - 0240: Sinking location found. Large oil spill with more oil still gushing to the surface from southern end.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 22 Dec 2011 10:40

igorr wrote: Btw, which aircrafts and units used by finns for A/S patrols? Ex-soviet SB was striken by 1943?
Beginning of the Continuation War, the only squadron assigned to the Navy was Lentolaivue 6 (February 1944 onwards Pommituslentolaivue 6) which operated Tupolev SBs, Polikarpov I-153s and Blackburn Ripons. Tupolevs were the only ones used against submarines from 1941 to 1944, while Polikarpovs were used in reconnaissance and against small surface vessels and Ripons to escort vessels departing from and arriving to Finland.

During November 1942 a new regiment was formed, Lentorykmentti 5, which included Lentolaivue 6 and 30 (February 1944 onwards Hävittäjälentolaivue 30). The Regiment was no longer under the Navy HQ's command but continued to receive tasks from it.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 22 Dec 2011 17:09

Vaeltaja wrote: Iku turso war diary
Now I have photocopy of them in finnish, russian translating and a map. All in this report match perfectly with SCHC-307's report.

2 Martti Kujansuu thanks for answer.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Vaeltaja » 22 Dec 2011 18:23

igorr wrote:
Vaeltaja wrote: Iku turso war diary
Now I have photocopy of them in finnish, russian translating and a map. All in this report match perfectly with SCHC-307's report.

2 Martti Kujansuu thanks for answer.
What ever it is it does not match what you wrote previously.
We here have translation of report IT commander about attack. When SCHCH-307 dived, IT begin try to locate her with acoustic, but unable to do this. As IT stops to listening, SCHCH-307 can leave them behind. Only when SCHC surfaced finns can locate her again. Btw, this time (23.00msk) moon rised and visibility improved much. Commander of IT in his report in fact stated, that torpedoes missed enemy sub passing near her bow
1) IT located 307 long before 2300 Moscow time. 2) IT commander never stated missing the target.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 22 Dec 2011 19:02

Vaeltaja wrote: What ever it is it does not match what you wrote previously.
What exactly?
What i wrote is two encounter SCHCH-307 with IKU-TURSO and torpedo-miss in second time. Can't see any contradiction.
Vaeltaja wrote: 1) IT located 307 long before 2300 Moscow time. 2) IT commander never stated missing the target.
1) Of course, thats why i wrote in my post 21 Dec 2011, 15:48: soviet sub dived and surfaced only on 21.31, and then in one of next posts - that IT located enemy sub (second time) when it surfaced, i.e. 21.31. At 23.00 rain stopped, moon raised and visibility became to 4-5 miles. 23.00 mean moon and visibility (after you say that visibility was very poor and soviets can't see any torpedoes).
2) My inattention. Commander wrote "its seems like torpedoes, which pathes was clearly visible, missed the target", but some strings later he claims one hit. I miss that, sorry. But this not change anything, SCHC-307 was missed and torpedo exploded most likely behind soviet sub.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 23 Dec 2011 02:50

igorr wrote:.
Second group (I) first discovered SCHC-408 on 21.5.43, 15.20 with help of finnish aircraft.
May be this is possible to identify, which aircraft was involved?

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by Mangrove » 23 Dec 2011 10:28

igorr wrote:
igorr wrote:.
Second group (I) first discovered SCHC-408 on 21.5.43, 15.20 with help of finnish aircraft.
May be this is possible to identify, which aircraft was involved?
Here is first an account from E./Lentolaivue 6's diary, followed by 2./Lentolaivue 6's diary. Both diaries have also material regarding the events on the following day.

http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=3608590
21 May 1943.
[...]
2.25 p.m. Report from Aufkl.Fl.Gr. 127: Enemy submarine observed at Grid 117 a 7 at 12.40 a.m.
2.50 p.m. One SB left to Grid 117 a 7. The flight was reported to Aufkl.Fl.Gr. 127. The German observations were reported to Os. Väinämöinen and luutn. Forstén at Navy HQ.
3.15 p.m. Aufkl.Fl.Gr. 127 reported by phone that the observation was a oil spot where the head is heading towards west and then towards east. A German plane dropped two depth charges on it.
5.20 p.m. Report from 2nd Flight: ASW flight at Grid 117 a 70 between 2.45 - 5.00 p.m. Two depth charges were dropped to a fresh oil spot.
[...]
10.11 p.m. Report from 2nd Flight: ASW flight with one SB at the Central Gulf of Finland at 7.30 - 9.40 p.m. No observations.
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2908148
21 May [1943]
[...]
2.45 p.m. ASW flight with SB-10 (Aaltio, Vepsäläinen, Pellinen).
5.00 p.m. SB-10 landed.

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Re: Naval warfare

Post by igorr » 23 Dec 2011 11:18

Thanks!

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