Finland and overall European picture according to the Allies

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krimsonglass51
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Finland and overall European picture according to the Allies

#1

Post by krimsonglass51 » 05 Jan 2012, 20:55

As most of us know, the Allies, especially the United States and Britain wanted Finland out of the war for the sake of causing a drop in morale among the Axis powers, and even hopefully having them drop out one by one. Two of the links I've posted show this.
At the peace conference Finland would have been better off as a fully occupied country than to appear as Mr. Churchill said, in the same dock with the guilty and defeated Nazis...As for our interest in getting Finland out of the fight, this country is a candidate with Italy and the Balkans satellites of the Axis for detachment from Germany
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... sequences

as well as

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... 19&q1=axis

If the Allies understood Finland as not waging a war of anhiliation like Germany, why did they constantly label the country as an Axis satellite?

[urlhttp://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&id=FRUS.FRUS1943CairoTehran&entity=FRUS.FRUS1943CairoTehran.p0307&q1=rumania][/url] (look at point e.)

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... =satellite (bottom of the page)

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... =satellite (bottom half)

Seppo Koivisto
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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#2

Post by Seppo Koivisto » 05 Jan 2012, 21:49

Doesn´t the last link say:"satellite countries and Finland"?


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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#3

Post by krimsonglass51 » 06 Jan 2012, 03:57

I apologize for the last link. The other two illustrate my question though. Why did Allied leaders still refer to Finland as an Axis satellite?

I suppose the other point I am trying to make is that the Allies considered the "separate war" of Finland to be part of the conflict in Europe known as WWII. In fact, they were considering the effects of Finnish withdraw on the rest of the European conflict just like they did with Italy.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#4

Post by Seppo Jyrkinen » 06 Jan 2012, 11:05

Relations between Finland and Western countries is a good question.

Especially Brittany. Relations were problematic already during the Winter War: British government, and especially Churchill, was willing to fool Finns and let the county get smashed in the name of British interest.

And six months after Winter War, in October 24. 1940, British ambassador Cripps in Moscow, got instructions to courage Moscow to demand the whole Pechenga nickel production to themselves. They were throwing gasoline into the flames and Finland's position came more desperate. One month after this, Molotov visited Berlin and asked free hands to destroy Finland.

By giving such instructions to Cripps, British were pushing Finland towards Germany. Norway was occupied and it was clear that Germany would get nickel, with good or with bad.

It looks that at Autumn 1940, Finland was a sacrificed cheep to Stalin. Is it possible that this was Finland's position also later?
A word irony is baked into the word history.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#5

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Jan 2012, 11:39

krimsonglass51 wrote:I apologize for the last link.
Why?

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#6

Post by krimsonglass51 » 06 Jan 2012, 14:17

Why?

Regards, Juha
The last one said "Satellite countries and Finland". My question was why some Allied leaders continued to call Finland an Axis satellite throughout the war.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#7

Post by JTV » 06 Jan 2012, 18:16

krimsonglass51 wrote:If the Allies understood Finland as not waging a war of anhiliation like Germany, why did they constantly label the country as an Axis satellite?

[urlhttp://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bin/FRUS/FRUS-idx?type=turn&id=FRUS.FRUS1943CairoTehran&entity=FRUS.FRUS1943CairoTehran.p0307&q1=rumania][/url] (look at point e.)

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... =satellite (bottom of the page)
May I ask how many wartime foreign relations documents mentioning Finland did you go through to find these two? The thing I am wondering is how common this view was the time or if these are exceptions to it. Just because one could probably find at least case or two in internet in which a tornado has made a cow fly, it doesn't mean that the cows are typically flying.

As for reasons why some people do something unexpected - when lacking information about the particular persons, their character and motives, ignorance and stupidy tend to be good candidates. :lol:

Jarkko

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#8

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Jan 2012, 20:19

krimsonglass51 wrote:
Why?

Regards, Juha
The last one said "Satellite countries and Finland". My question was why some Allied leaders continued to call Finland an Axis satellite throughout the war.
krimsonglass51 wrote:If the Allies understood Finland as not waging a war of anhiliation like Germany, why did they constantly label the country as an Axis satellite?
Two examples meaning "constantly" and "continued"?
You gave us two examples of such and one that is against your opinion.
Your findings more seem to "reveal" that Finland's situation among Allies during the WWII was not that clear.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#9

Post by krimsonglass51 » 07 Jan 2012, 06:38

There are a number of other quotes that show that some Allied leaders acknowledged that Finland was not part of the Axis. There are also other passages that seem to indicated it as a satellite rather than an actual Axis country (I believe there was an American diplomat who differentiated). There were also quotes from British and Soviet diplomats that requested that countries like Finland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary be spared from unconditional surrender. I don't have time to go through the Foreign Relations of the United States archive to get all the quotes at the moment.

Perhaps some diplomats had mistaken notions. Perhaps there were typos. Perhaps those are irrelevant now.

As of stated before, even if they acknowledged that Finland as not part of the Axis, they still considered the events that unfolded in that part of the continent (1941-1945) to be part of the war in Europe.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#10

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Jan 2012, 21:13

krimsonglass51 wrote: There were also quotes from British and Soviet diplomats that requested that countries like Finland, Romania, Bulgaria, and Hungary be spared from unconditional surrender.
...and also of occupation of three of them: http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... =satellite
krimsonglass51 wrote:I don't have time to go through the Foreign Relations of the United States archive to get all the quotes at the moment.
... thanks for the ones you have been able to find.
krimsonglass51 wrote:Perhaps some diplomats had mistaken notions. Perhaps there were typos. Perhaps those are irrelevant now.
I doubt the info at your links is irrelevant - the info there shows the variations of Allied policies towards Finland during the years.
krimsonglass51 wrote:As of stated before, even if they acknowledged that Finland as not part of the Axis, they still considered the events that unfolded in that part of the continent (1941-1945) to be part of the war in Europe.
I think you share the opinion of the majority here.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#11

Post by krimsonglass51 » 29 Nov 2012, 08:55

Some documents that show that the Americans saw that taking Finland out of the war could play a key role in the European Theater of WWII

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... ly&q3=axis
As for our own interest in getting Finland out of the fight, this country is a candidate with Italy and the Balkan satellites of the Axis for detachment from Germany...The positive deed is yet to come, to deprive Hitler of Finnish support entirely.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... &q3=sweden
A list of potential effects of a withdraw of Finland in 1942 including an adverse effect on morale for the Axis, and even decreasing Romania's willingness to fight.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... q3=finland
Talks about how a potential American-British invasion of Northern Norway (along with the guarantee that Soviets would not enter the country) could bring Finland out of the war on agreeable terms.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... q3=finland
You and Russian government can better judge than I the relative advantage of breaking up the Axis consortium as balanced against the advantage to Russia of regaining 1940 boundary of Finland or even taking over entire country...should peace talks result, Germany might occupy Finland. This would itself be an advantage to us in causing a diversion of German forces and creating fresh lack of confidence among the satellite states.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... &q3=defeat
McClintock talking with the Finnish foreign minister about the gravity of Finland's situation with respect to Axis countries and the Eastern Front.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#12

Post by krimsonglass51 » 29 Nov 2012, 09:28

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... e=M&q1=BBC
Britain's initial hardline on unconditional surrender for Finland. The previous page talks about American efforts to emphasize via propaganda: Finland's increasing isolation due to its association with Germany, the decline of Nazi military power,and atrocities in Axis Europe.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... q1=finland
How the entry of Turkey along with attacks on German occupied Greece could delay Overlord, but at the same time, destabilize Axis forces in the area and even (somehow) force Finland to ask for peace from Russia.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... q1=finland
Churchill wanted Finland out of the war and Sweden in by the time of Overlord's original time frame (May 1944).

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... q2=finland
British analysis on the likelihood of Finland, Romania, Hungary, or Bulgaria withdrawing from the war, and how propaganda should be utilized for each state.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... propaganda
Britain's willingness to not apply unconditional surrender to Finland and Romania, as well as encouraging active resistance in Hungary and Bulgaria against German forces.

http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... q3=britain
Same as above.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#13

Post by krimsonglass51 » 10 Jun 2014, 03:05

On March 12 the American Ambassador, Admiral Standley, on behalf of the U.S.A. Government, conveyed to Mr. Molotov the following message:
"The Government of the U.S.A. offers its good offices as intermediary between the U.S.S.R. and Finland in order to explore the possibility of a separate peace."
On Mr. Molotov's question whether the American Government has information that Finland desires peace and what is her real position, Admiral Standley replied that he cannot say anything on the matter. As is well known, the Anglo-Soviet Treaty of May 26, 1942, stipulates that our countries cannot negotiate on the conclusion of a separate peace with Germany or her Allies otherwise than by mutual agreement. I consider this a fundamental and unalterable principle. In view of this I felt it is my duty first to inform you about the American proposal and second to ask your opinion on the matter. I have no reasons to believe that Finland really desires peace, that she has decided already to part with Germany and to offer acceptable conditions. It seems to me that Finland has not yet escaped from Hitler's claws, if she has this intention at all. The present Finnish Government, which concluded a peace treaty with the Soviet Union and then violated it and attacked the Soviet Union in alliance with Germany, is hardly able to break with Hitler.
Notwithstanding all that, in view of the proposal made by the Government of the U.S.A., I deemed it my duty to inform you of the above."

To which the Prime Minister replied:
"You can best judge of how much military value it would be in the struggle against the Germans on your front to get Finland out of the war. I should suppose that it would have the effect of releasing more Soviet divisions than German divisions for use elsewhere. Further, the defection of Finland from the Axis might have considerable effect on Hitler's other satellites.
Taken from http://uralica.com/finnliv2.htm, originally from The Hinge of Fate pg. 673 by Winston Churchill
Vinogradov asked McClintock's opinion as to the bona fides of a Finnish desire to conclude peace with USSR but answered his own question by saying 'We don't believe the Finns want peace,'......As for Vinogradov's comment that his government was not interested McClintock was unable to make any comment other than that to him it still seemed of interest from a Russian point of view to pry open Axis structure by getting satellite states away from Germany.
http://digicoll.library.wisc.edu/cgi-bi ... nd&q3=axis

From these, and the previous links I posted on this thread, it seems to me that detaching Finland from Nazi Germany was a priority for the Western Allies during WWII. Of course, they also made efforts to do the same with Italy, Rumania, Hungary, and Bulgaria. While some political and military leaders mistakenly labeled Finland as an Axis country, others (McClintock being the notable exception) understood that it was not waging the same war of annihilation as Germany. However, they all understood that Finland was very much part of WWII in Europe despite their efforts to remain separate.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#14

Post by Northwind » 10 Jun 2014, 17:23

You can see from many biographies exmp. Mannerheims and from books considering finnish intelligence that Churchill and Mannerheim both shared the same oppinions considering communism. Churchill was sympathizing Finland during both wars. But the thing is that constant pressure from USSR and Stalin made Brittain declare war on Finland. He even said that declaring war on Finland was a mistake and the only military operation against finns was the bombing of the far northern port of Petsamo mainly occupied by german soldiers and ships. Mannerheim and Churchill sent a few secret letters to eachother considering the attitudes of allied nations toward Finland.

Main issue for the Allied was Finlands millitary plans to cut the Murmansk railroad of soviets and thus interfiere with the lend/lease shipments. But however allied where hypocritically enemies of every nation that USSR saw as their enemy and in the end forgot why the war started and betrayed their polish allies. So in paper Finland was ofcourse the enemy of Brittain.
I will post some details later from the book "Käärmeenpesä" that is all bout the relations of the allied/other world and Finland. It has some very interesting info.

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Re: Finland and overall European picture according to the Al

#15

Post by Karelia » 10 Jun 2014, 18:44

Northwind wrote:You can see from many biographies exmp. Mannerheims and from books considering finnish intelligence that Churchill and Mannerheim both shared the same oppinions considering communism. Churchill was sympathizing Finland during both wars. But the thing is that constant pressure from USSR and Stalin made Brittain declare war on Finland. He even said that declaring war on Finland was a mistake and the only military operation against finns was the bombing of the far northern port of Petsamo mainly occupied by german soldiers and ships. Mannerheim and Churchill sent a few secret letters to eachother considering the attitudes of allied nations toward Finland.

Main issue for the Allied was Finlands millitary plans to cut the Murmansk railroad of soviets and thus interfiere with the lend/lease shipments. But however allied where hypocritically enemies of every nation that USSR saw as their enemy and in the end forgot why the war started and betrayed their polish allies. So in paper Finland was ofcourse the enemy of Brittain.
I will post some details later from the book "Käärmeenpesä" that is all bout the relations of the allied/other world and Finland. It has some very interesting info.
That single attack was aimed at Germans on the Finnish soil, more than 4 months BEFORE the British declaration of war against Finland.

"Furious attacked ships in the harbour of Petsamo, Liinahamari, launching nine Fairey Albacores from 817 Squadron, nine Fairey Swordfish of 812 Squadron and six bomb armed Fairey Fulmars[5] from 800 Squadron.[4] In the end, the harbour was almost entirely empty and the raiders claimed sinking only one small steamer and the destruction of several jetties,[4] amid heavy antiaircraft fire.[6] One Albacore and one Fulmar were lost due to enemy action and one more Fulmar was lost due to engine failure prior to the attack."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Ki ... nd_Petsamo

In addition there were four Sea Hurricanes for air cover. Apart of the British losses of seven men there were two German soldiers being killed and a (German?) merchant navy sailor. Four Finnish civilians were wounded, one of them seriously.

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liinahamar ... ukset_1941

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