Digitized National Defence University publications & theses

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Slon-76
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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 13 Jul 2012 11:20

Karelia wrote:According to this definition (and IIRC also acc. to the definition of the Finnish army) the soviet 163rd and 44th divisions at Suomussalmi were destroyed.
Based on this definition, the 44 Division destroyed, but 163 Division why is destroyed?

About 20% is generally some sort of nonsense. It turns out that H. Siilasvuo's 9 D. was also destroyed in the fighting with 54 Division?

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Vaeltaja » 13 Jul 2012 12:07

Neither 44th nor 163rd Divisions remained combat effective formations, so from military point of view they were destroyed as combat effective units. Which was the part referred to by Karelia.

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 13 Jul 2012 21:58

Vaeltaja wrote:Neither 44th nor 163rd Divisions remained combat effective formations, so from military point of view they were destroyed as combat effective units. Which was the part referred to by Karelia.
For such categorical assertions you have to have a foundation? 163 Division departed with equipment and heavy weapons. Split was only her 662 Regiment. On what basis do you claim that it was not combat-ready?

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Vaeltaja » 13 Jul 2012 23:36

I think something is lost in the translation, i really do not have any idea what you mean with your post. I have understood that 662th Rifle Regiment's whole command was executed for perceived crimes but also that the 163rd Division lost all unit coherence in disorderly retreat and lost nearly all equipment, including quite a bit of the personal equipment. And its remnants were immediately moved to other areas for refitting.

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Karelia » 14 Jul 2012 00:38

Slon-76 wrote:
Vaeltaja wrote:Neither 44th nor 163rd Divisions remained combat effective formations, so from military point of view they were destroyed as combat effective units. Which was the part referred to by Karelia.
For such categorical assertions you have to have a foundation? 163 Division departed with equipment and heavy weapons. Split was only her 662 Regiment. On what basis do you claim that it was not combat-ready?
http://www.winterwar.com/Battles/Suomussalmi2.htm

"The manpower of the strengthened 163rd division was around 23 000. The Finnish attacks, starting on 27 Dec, sealed the fate of the mostly surrounded division.

The exact number of Soviet casualties remains a mystery. While the Finns found some 5 000 bodies stretching from Suomussalmi village to Alassalmi. Around three hundred prisoners were taken and an unknown number of Soviet soldiers were swallowed by the hostile winter forest.

The Finnish losses, against the 163.D, were 350 KIA, 600 wounded and 70 missing. The Finnish JR 27, who made the initial attack to the Suomussalmi village, sustained the heaviest casualties.

The achievement of the Finnish forces is even greater, when one considers that the Finns had to fight, almost, without artillery and AT-support. And that the Soviet infantry units had much more automatic weapons than the Finns, an important factor in forest fighting.



The war booty from the Suomussalmi - Lake Piispajärvi - Juntusranta axis
!!! These figures don't include the booty from the Raate road !!!
(The figures are the numbers that were counted and transported away from the front, hundreds of rifles, lmg's and mg's were taken into use immediately and thus never counted.)
Rifles 625
LMG's 33
Mg's 19
AT-guns 12
Field and AA-guns 27
Tanks 26
Armored cars 2
AA-Mg's (four barrels) 2
Horses 350
Trucks 181
cars 2
Tractor 11
Field kitchens 26
Miscellaneous 800 000 rounds of 7.62 mm rifle ammo, 9 000 artillery shells, the almost complete equipment of a field hospital, skis, snowsuits, handguns, baggage trains, a bakery
"

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 14 Jul 2012 01:48

Karelia wrote: The manpower of the strengthened 163rd division was around 23 000.


12 500 + ~1500-2000 soldiers 47 rifle Corps.
Karelia wrote:The exact number of Soviet casualties remains a mystery. While the Finns found some 5 000 bodies stretching from Suomussalmi village to Alassalmi.
To exaggerate their success is all the armies of the world. This is just such a case.
The Finnish losses, against the 163.D, were 350 KIA, 600 wounded and 70 missing.
Oh well. The Finns defeated suffering in 3.5 times smaller losses. This is Honorable.
!!! These figures don't include the booty from the Raate road !!!
Yes, I know.
Rifles 625
LMG's 33
Mg's 19
Where are the weapons of the other 4000 + found "bodies"?
AT-guns 12
Yes, it probably is. Finns went to regimental AT-battery 662 rifle regiment, 8 AT-gun 204 ATDn. and 2 AT-gun 81 rifle regiment. Must be 16
Field and AA-guns 27
There was no AA-guns. When left 10 76 mm, 4 122 mm and 6 mortar. This artillery 662 regiment + two batteries 365 artillery regiment.
Tanks 26
The 163 Division was only 14 tanks. Most likely, the rest of the "tanks"- is a armored tractor "Komsomolets"

Somehow. All this is not deadly to Infantry Division.

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by JTV » 14 Jul 2012 07:17

Slon-76 wrote: There was no AA-guns.
Could have been 76 K/36 aka F-22, there are some sources that suggest that early on Finnish military was bit unclear if these guns (with their +75 degree maximum elevation) were intended as field guns or anti-aircraft guns.

Jarkko

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 14 Jul 2012 09:01

JTV wrote:
Slon-76 wrote: There was no AA-guns.
Could have been 76 K/36 aka F-22, there are some sources that suggest that early on Finnish military was bit unclear if these guns (with their +75 degree maximum elevation) were intended as field guns or anti-aircraft guns.

Jarkko
Yes, perhaps. One battery of guns had 662 Regiment (7/365 AR)

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 14 Jul 2012 09:24

Vaeltaja wrote: And its remnants were immediately moved to other areas for refitting.
I will repeat. 163 Division retreated to the area Juntusranta-Tormua and stood there in the defense. Retreated in good order. In the Finnish Environment was 662 Regiment with parts enhancing. The regiment threw all heavy weaponry and equipment. But most of the people managed to get through the forest. But most of the people managed to get through the forest. On 7 January the regiment was 2051 peoples (with 1 on 14 January the regiment received 389 peoples).

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Vaeltaja » 14 Jul 2012 10:26

I understood from Shirokorad that 163rd abandoned also personal weapons as well as rather curiously also some of the personal equipment.

link
Бойцы 162-й дивизии при отступлении бросали не только винтовки, но и обмундирование. На совещании в ЦК в апреле 1940 года кто-то из командиров заметил: "Ведь 163-я дивизия пришла босая". Начальник снабжения Красной Армии корпусной комиссар А.В. Хрулев это подтвердил, зачитав постановление Военного совета 9-й [584] армии, где перечислялось имущество, брошенное дивизией:

"Военсовет устанавливает, что 163-я дивизия оставила на поле боя... рубах летних — 3028 штук, белья нательного — 11849 пар, шаровар ватных — 4321 штуки, перчаток — 6147, валенок — 2250, кожаной обуви — 6908 пар".
Which hardly indicates that division would have been actually existing as a effective military unit at the time. Do note that 'destroyed' in this sense does not mean that unit would have been wiped out or even that it would have been disbanded or anything.

If I'm mistaken then i do apologize but from that source it does would appear that 163rd Rifle Division would not have remained combat effective any longer.

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Art » 14 Jul 2012 11:02

Slon-76 wrote: On 7 January the regiment was 2051 peoples (with 1 on 14 January the regiment received 389 peoples).
Is there any information on the composition of the entire division in early January?

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 14 Jul 2012 12:48

Vaeltaja wrote:I understood from Shirokorad that 163rd abandoned also personal weapons as well as rather curiously also some of the personal equipment.
O! Shirokorad - is a POWER! :)
link
Бойцы 162-й дивизии при отступлении бросали не только винтовки, но и обмундирование. На совещании в ЦК в апреле 1940 года кто-то из командиров заметил: "Ведь 163-я дивизия пришла босая".]
Начальник снабжения Красной Армии корпусной комиссар А.В. Хрулев это подтвердил, зачитав постановление Военного совета 9-й [584] армии, где перечислялось имущество, брошенное дивизией:
"Военсовет устанавливает, что 163-я дивизия оставила на поле боя... рубах летних — 3028 штук, белья нательного — 11849 пар, шаровар ватных — 4321 штуки, перчаток — 6147, валенок — 2250, кожаной обуви — 6908 пар".
You wouldn't think that soldiers fled, dropping off even underwear? :)
Here we are talking about the property abandoned when the Divisional warehouse from Palovaara. A word about "bare" Division fall by the beginning of the war, rather than by the end of December.
Escape from throwing weapons-this is a lie, "walking" from the book in the book. Even from the environment most healthy soldiers came out with personal weapons. For example, a detachment of Tchaikovsky (3/662 RR + engineers and artillery fnd other (~650 men 26.12.39). Healthy 4 January came to 265 people. When there are 199 rifles, a 24 revolver and 4 lighn machine gun. With them were 70 wounded and frozen. Another 168 soldiers who came with this group, unfortunately, no details.
Vaeltaja wrote:If I'm mistaken then i do apologize but from that source it does would appear that 163rd Rifle Division would not have remained combat effective any longer.
Shirokorad, quite a few realizes that he writes. "It's not a source, it's a dezinformator." (с) :)
Art wrote:Is there any information on the composition of the entire division in early January?
Yes, there is on parts (662, 759 RR, artullery and "trivia")

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Karelia » 15 Jul 2012 14:51

Slon-76 wrote:
Karelia wrote: The manpower of the strengthened 163rd division was around 23 000.


12 500 + ~1500-2000 soldiers 47 rifle Corps.
strengthened 163rd division, not only the basic division
Karelia wrote:The exact number of Soviet casualties remains a mystery. While the Finns found some 5 000 bodies stretching from Suomussalmi village to Alassalmi.
To exaggerate their success is all the armies of the world. This is just such a case.
The bodies were counted.

Not ALL armies, although the soviet/Russian one is famous of it (e.g. the Finnish losses claimed by USSR)
The Finnish losses, against the 163.D, were 350 KIA, 600 wounded and 70 missing.
Oh well. The Finns defeated suffering in 3.5 times smaller losses. This is Honorable.

Actually the Finnish losses were 12 times smaller... (soviet: more than 5.000 KIA, Finnish: 420 KIA+MIA)
Rifles 625
LMG's 33
Mg's 19
Where are the weapons of the other 4000 + found "bodies"?
"(The figures are the numbers that were counted and transported away from the front, hundreds of rifles, lmg's and mg's were taken into use immediately and thus never counted.)"

You must be aware, that the Finnish Army's biggest supplier of arms and ammunitions was USSR - although not willingly...
Tanks 26
The 163 Division was only 14 tanks. Most likely, the rest of the "tanks"- is a armored tractor "Komsomolets"
Could well be so.
Somehow. All this is not deadly to Infantry Division.
Maybe not "deadly", but enough to put it out of action.

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Slon-76 » 15 Jul 2012 16:20

Karelia wrote:strengthened 163rd division, not only the basic division
I said "strengthened" the Division. Anything beyond that, it did not receive.
Karelia wrote:The exact number of Soviet casualties remains a mystery. While the Finns found some 5 000 bodies stretching from Suomussalmi village to Alassalmi.
Karelia wrote:The bodies were counted.
You know exactly who and how was the body? Please share the source.
Karelia wrote:Actually the Finnish losses were 12 times smaller... (soviet: more than 5.000 KIA, Finnish: 420 KIA+MIA)
And here is the headquarters of 47 Corps believed that 163 division lost with 1 to 31 December at 990 dead and 451 missing. Most likely, it is necessary to add another 500-600 men from the 662 regiment. Who owned the remaining 3000+ corpses can learn only from those who believed them.
Just think. If you are right and losing only killed and 163 divisions were missing more than 5 thousand people, the total losses of the Division must be at least 8-10 thousand. In early January, the Division was to make up for losses in 1839. Where did in the regiments to Division 4-7 January 2000+ people (each)? Even really defeated 44 Division had losses killed 5000 people.
"(The figures are the numbers that were counted and transported away from the front, hundreds of rifles, lmg's and mg's were taken into use immediately and thus never counted.)"
It's not a very plausible explanation. I also believe the word Soviet commanders, imparting upon reports that "the enemy fled, leaving dozens of dead bodies in front of our positions". And that is to increase REAL Finnish casualties or somehow affect the combat capability of the 9 divisions?
Karelia wrote:Maybe not "deadly", but enough to put it out of action.
[/quote]

163 Division remained at the front. The established what you judge its effectiveness? You know the strength of the Division and the State of its weapons? No, as I understand it. You just go on the one hand and announce their only true.
I also believe the word Soviet commanders, imparting upon reports that "the enemy fled, leaving dozens of dead bodies in front of our positions". And what? It is increase REAL Finnish casualties or somehow affect the combat capability of the 9 divisions?
Just need to critically relate to data from both sides. And all will become clear.

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Re: Digitized National Defence University publications & the

Post by Vaeltaja » 15 Jul 2012 16:43

Slon, do you write the text in English or do you write it in Russian and then translate with something? Because at times it is very difficult to understand what you are trying to say.
I also believe the word Soviet commanders, imparting upon reports that "the enemy fled, leaving dozens of dead bodies in front of our positions".
This is exactly similar claim like the '5000 dead'. It is just as valid for others to believe to the 5000 dead as it is for you to believe in that value. Unless you have Finnish side source or casualty listing matching the losses that is.


This is just from memory, IIRC in one of the documentaries describing the fighting at Suomussalmi and Raate road stated that no one checked all the Soviet casualties from the woods, not Finns and not Soviets. And that they were left there at least in some part unburied - which as was stated - would have resulted in the following spring and early summer in stench of decomposing bodies in the area. Granted i don't remember even the name of documentary only that i didn't really take it with full value.

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