Soviet bombing of Finland 1939-1940

[Vaeltaja]

Well... then there were the Soviet bombers shooting at civilians with exploding bullets and other such events but i doubt you want category 'war crimes' in there...

raide = raidetta (pl.) = railway track
vaihde = vaihdetta (pl.) = railway switch

A bit of nitpicking, but those are not exactly in plural form but instead in partitive case (ie. indistinct).

[varjag]

Well... then there were the Soviet bombers shooting at civilians with exploding bullets and other such events but i doubt you want category 'war crimes' in there...

raide = raidetta (pl.) = railway track
vaihde = vaihdetta (pl.) = railway switch

A bit of nitpicking, but those are not exactly in plural form but instead in partitive case (ie. indistinct).

Thank you Vaeltaja for your post. And yes - I have read about ''soviet bombers'' shooting at civilians....
And have no doubt that it happened....I believe Haparainen, Sortavala and Viipuri - claim such incidents.
And more....?
And no - I am of course not in ''the war-crime business'' at all.
But would appreciate details about where and when '' soviet bombers'' in which category I only include SB's and DB-3's - could have been low enough - to ''strafe'' civilians? As their usual level-bombing altitude was around 2500 - 3500 meters?
Could U please verify locations and ''strafing attacks'' - with such bombers at treetop altitude?

And now, for the ''explosive bullets'' ....hrmmm. With the exception of the 20mm ShVak cannons on the limited number of I-16P (for Pushka) fighters deployed, I cannot recall any HE-variants of the 7,62x54mm cartridges that the Soviets - and the Finns used. It must've been a VERY MINISCULE explosive charge :roll:
Please enlighten me?

Rgds, Varjag

[Juha Tompuri]

I cannot recall any HE-variants of the 7,62x54mm cartridges that the Soviets - and the Finns used. It must've been a VERY MINISCULE explosive charge :roll:
Please enlighten me?

Memories from the past:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... it#p467140
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA15.html

Infantry usage of explosive ammunition:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... t#p1079183

Regards, Juha

[varjag]

Thank you Juha! I ''stand corrected''
I can well imagine soviet fighters and light bombers (R-5's), shooting at civilians in low-level attacks. And then using, said HE-ammunition.

Rgds, Varjag

[Juha Tompuri]

Soviet bombings of Sortavala
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/14125.html#cutid1

Regards, Juha

[Seppo Koivisto]

Google translate of the same:
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... 14125.html

[varjag]

Thank you very much Juha and Seppo - for pictures and details of the destruction of Sortavala in February.

B.t.w. - HOW - do you fix translation of those masses of Russian text - to a Christian language ?????

Best rgds, Varjag

[Slon-76]

B.t.w. - HOW - do you fix translation of those masses of Russian text - to a Christian language ?????

You do think, Russians - not Christians? But who?

By the way, if you master translator. Here about the bombings during the first days of December (30.11-9.12):
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/9172.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/9410.html

[Juha Tompuri]

Slon, thank you very much for the Sortavala and the first bombing information.

You do think, Russians - not Christians? But who?

I think Varjag ment there the Soviet Godless/Atheist Bezbozhnik organisation and it's work.

BTW, do you have information about the "Onisko-buckets" and/or Soviet casette bombs?
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=188714

Regards, Juha

[varjag]

B.t.w. - HOW - do you fix translation of those masses of Russian text - to a Christian language ?????

You do think, Russians - not Christians? But who?

By the way, if you master translator. Here about the bombings during the first days of December (30.11-9.12):
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/9172.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/9410.html

I apologize Slon-76, if I offended U. But Juha is right, I partly had the ''Godless Bezbozhniki'' in mind - something that was drummed into a young varjagyan mind from early years. But also - that a manner of speaking in my youth - about a language that one did not understand, was to ask for a translation to a christian language...
In plain speak - something we could understand....

Now - I do NOT master ''translator'' - but would very much appreciate if U - could assist with translation of the above links that you have kindly posted. PLEASE....

The period 30.11 - 9.12 is particularly interesting as the DB and SB-bombers appear to have had bad flying weather duing that period - with little action.

I have records of some Baltic Fleet air action on December 5th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 16th - using MDR-2 flying boats
(the navy boys were perhaps better at navigation than their army compatriots... ) - and bombing respectively
Laajsalo (5th) Valaam 8th, Utö, Örö and Russarö coastal artillery batteries - and the Hanko-Laaphoja railway on the 9th.
Further that Koivisto was attacked by two SB's and one R-5 during the night of the 9th.
On the 10th Örö, Jussarö, Jumarö and the Laapohja-Tammisari railway. And on the 16th - MB'R-2's from 41AE bombed
Konevitsa...

If You could please add to that information, I would be very grateful.
rgds, Varjag

[Seppo Koivisto]

Google translate links to Slon-76´s two articles:
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... F9172.html
http://translate.google.com/translate?h ... F9410.html

[Vaeltaja]

Slon-76... Reading through the translations... Soviet pilots never achieved precision in their bombing effort regardless of the height the bombed. There are several reasons for it actually (not least being that accurate bombsights did not yet exists at the time). It is valid to state that accuracy was dropped to non-existing with cloud cover but it is not valid to claim that low altitude bombings would have been accurate.

Also it is totally irrelevant as to what the orders given to the bombing crews were. They did miss. They did bomb civilians. Strategic bombings of cities - which were done repeatedly by the Soviets - are by definitions acts of terror against the civilian population (at least if you read Douhet).

[varjag]

Soviet pilots never achieved precision in their bombing effort

As far as ''level bombing'' is concerned - agreed! But seems to me, that a grossly exaggerated belief in bombing precision - was not a perogative of the Soviet air-forces alone. The same illusion was shared by Germans, Italians, British, Japanese and Americans as well. The experiences as the war progressed - was one of great disappointments.
The bombers - could hit a large city, like London, Hamburg, Berlin. But - where in that city - was up to pure chance until 1942-43, with Pathfinder crews, radio-and later radar-assisted targeting. Even the daylight American efforts, with their fabled Norden bomb-sights, was very scattered - not least due to the high altitudes the B-17's and B-24's operated from.

The vast majority of Soviet bombing of Finland 1939-40, was undertaken in daylight - where the aircrews could actually see - their targets. But alas, most of their bombing effort was directed against very small towns, villages and hamlets - in the campaign against the Finnish railways. Targets that were both hard to locate - and to hit with their bombs.

Also, very often the deployed number of aircraft - was too few to achieve the neccessary concentration in the bombing that for instance the western alllies discovered - was essential to achieve the desired results.

The more determined attacks in February with 100+ bombers against f.i. Viipuri, Tampere, Sortavala and Kouvola - showed more success, but late in the war. Before that - I think the soviet high command - greatly over-estimated the damages that their bombers could achieve.

My tuppence, Varjag

[Slon-76]

I apologize Slon-76, if I offended U.

There are no problems. It was just a comment.

Now - I do NOT master ''translator''

I too.

and bombing respectively Laajsalo (5th)

MBR-2 44 ae 10th air brigade. During a reconnaissance flight

Valaam 8th,

There is no data about this attack. (I)

Utö, Örö and Russarö coastal artillery batteries - and the Hanko-Laaphoja railway on the 9th.

Single aircraft 10 aviabrigada during the reconnaissance flights

Further that Koivisto was attacked by two SB's and one R-5 during the night of the 9th.

Yes, on the night of 8 to 9 December. Flew 4 R-5 and 2 SB. Due to bad weather 3 R-5 could not find the target and did not return to its airfield.

On the 10th Örö, Jussarö, Jumarö and the Laapohja-Tammisari railway. And on the 16th - MB'R-2's from 41AE bombed
Konevitsa...

According to the staff of the AIR FORCE fleet, aircraft MBR-2 had bombed the island (coastal battery). But for some reason it just bombed train.

AF 9th army 30.11.39-12.01.40
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/10637.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/10811.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/11092.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/11424.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/11626.html

Filin's AG (AG OSK 9th army) XII.39 - I.40
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/13327.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/13691.html

I-16 over Viipuri gulf
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/17469.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/17707.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/18016.html
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/18251.html

and (just like that) AF "Finnish people army"
http://slon-76.livejournal.com/7659.html

Hopefully, "bablefish", "Google" and others help you translate.

[varjag]

Thank you VERY MUCH Slon-76 - for links and details! Will help me a lot. And - I think I have managed to use
Babelfish ''Translator'' , Great!

I can see that you have put a lot of hard work into this - and appeciate your sharing it, rgds, Varjag