Armoured draisine in Finland

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peeved
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Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by peeved » 19 May 2012 09:23

Hi guys,

Did the Finnish Army have armoured draisines or is this ex-Russian vehic in Wehrmacht use?

Markus
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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by CanKiwi2 » 19 May 2012 11:46

peeved wrote:Hi guys,

Did the Finnish Army have armoured draisines or is this ex-Russian vehic in Wehrmacht use?

Markus
Here you go - Jarkko has a great deal of info on Finnish armoured trains here

http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/TRAINS0.htm
ex Ngāti Tumatauenga ("Tribe of the Maori War God") aka the New Zealand Army

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peeved
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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by peeved » 19 May 2012 12:01

Thanks for the link,

At least the two armoured trains don't appear to have included armoured draisines in their setup.

Markus

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JTV
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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by JTV » 19 May 2012 17:25

Interesting photo, I don't remember seeing armoured draisine with exactly that configuration before. The railway cars behind it are obviously Finnish, but may have been part of Finnish rail stock left behind in 1940 or 1944.

No armoured draisines in Finnish use, just the two armoured trains whose story is told in my website.

There were some in Soviet use in Finnish - Soviet front at least during Winter War (*) and probably also during Continuation War, but nothing suggests that they saw much combat use.

(*) Tanks in Winter War by Maksym Kolomyec mentions that the Soviet battle-tested MBV-2 prototype on Viipuri/Viborg - Leningrad railway as fire-support in March of 1940. In addition 8th Special Division for Armoured Trains had one DTR and BA-10zjd armoured car along its two armoured trains in Carelian Isthmus in January - March 1940 and apparently also the armoured trains (light armoured train 16 and heavy armoured train 21) did fire-support support missions with their artillery pieces.

It remains unclear what type some of the Soviet armoured trains destroyed in Finnish - Soviet front in 1941 were in that sense that some may have actually well been heavy armoured draisines, but there were no Soviet armoured draisines were taken to Finnish use or any build in Finland - not even armoured cars used on rails.

Jarkko

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peeved
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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by peeved » 19 May 2012 18:56

Hi Jarkko,

And thanks for the background info. Found a couple of rather similar Panzerdraisine photos at http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... zuge-R.htm and http://i18.tinypic.com/66orvit.jpg , the last draisine has a license plate similar and equally illegible to the one in my pic. Based on http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... erdraisine the type may be a German-built Panzer-Zeppelin.

Markus

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 May 2012 19:52

JTV wrote: Tanks in Winter War by Maksym Kolomyec mentions that the Soviet battle-tested MBV-2 prototype on Viipuri/Viborg - Leningrad railway as fire-support in March of 1940. In addition 8th Special Division for Armoured Trains had one DTR and BA-10zjd armoured car along its two armoured trains in Carelian Isthmus in January - March 1940 and apparently also the armoured trains (light armoured train 16 and heavy armoured train 21) did fire-support support missions with their artillery pieces.

Image
Armored train no16 at Viborg region March 1940
Babelfish translation:
the eighth INDIVIDUAL BATTALION OF ARMORED TRAINS. Commander - Major Karasik. It arrived on January 21 from the Belorussian military district, having in by its composition: two armored trains (№16 light and №21 heavy), armored truck car DTR, one armored car la -10[zhd] even six la -20[zhd] (they could be used at the railroad motion). Battalion entered at the disposal of the commander of the 19th rifle corps. Since February 6 armored trains regularly were advanced for the bombardments of Finnish positions in the region of station Perk -[Yarvi]. After the breakthrough of the main line of defense “of the line of Mannerheim” and the restoration of railroad in the section Of [leypyasuo]-[Kyamarya], the battalion until March 2 with fire supported the offensive of infantry 123- y of rifle division. During combat for Vyborg on March 6 to 12 the battalion supported the part 27- GO of rifle regiment, suppressing the weapon emplacements of enemy in the regions Of [oyala] and [Kiesilya]. On March 8 to battalion was attached the prototype of [motobronevagona] [MBV]-2 for the tests in the combat situation. Since March 10 [MBV] suppressed weapon emplacements by fire from the exposed positions in the region of the station Of [liimatta], distracting to itself the fire of several artillery and mortar batteries, thus facilitating the advance of infantry forward. In all from February 7 to March 13 by armored trains [MBV] is spent: projectiles 107- mm - 1677 pieces, projectiles 76- mm - 5252 pieces.
http://otvaga2004.narod.ru/photo/winterwar/wwar3.htm

Regards, Juha

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 May 2012 20:17

The only Finnish armed (not armored) self-propelled railway vehicle I know was the one used 1941 at Kiestinki sector:
A truck (Ford/GAZ?) engined railway car with a mg at the roof pushing the four(?) capured flatcars.
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JTV
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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by JTV » 19 May 2012 20:27

peeved wrote: Based on http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waf ... erdraisine the type may be a German-built Panzer-Zeppelin.
Seems that way, I did a google search and came up with these:
http://www.panzerarchiv.de/forum/print. ... b7237780a8
http://www.ana-modell.de/shop/popup_ima ... 05&imgID=0

Turret looks similar to one used in Soviet BA-10 armoured cars. So, German armoured draisine with some Soviet captured Finnish rolling stock filmed somewhere in Soviet Union?

Jarkko

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by peeved » 19 May 2012 20:48

Hi Jarkko.

Must start using Google Image Search: Apparently the Panzer-Zeppelin was photographed in Finland by a 163. Infanterie-Division Uffz. Paul Berg of Kraftfahr-Kolonne 5; Photo caption "Panzerzug in Finnland" http://krigsbilder.net/coppermine/thumb ... 24&page=30

Markus

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by Juha Tompuri » 19 May 2012 21:04

peeved wrote:Hi Jarkko.

Must start using Google Image Search: Apparently the Panzer-Zeppelin was photographed in Finland by a 163. Infanterie-Division Uffz. Paul Berg of Kraftfahr-Kolonne 5; Photo caption "Panzerzug in Finnland" http://krigsbilder.net/coppermine/thumb ... 24&page=30
Wonder from what location the photo is from?
AFAIK not neccessary taken by Uffz. Paul Berg, but from his collection?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by peeved » 19 May 2012 21:34

Juha Tompuri wrote:AFAIK not neccessary taken by Uffz. Paul Berg, but from his collection?
Guess so,

From what I've read trading photos was fairly common and according to http://krigsbilder.net/coppermine/index.php?cat=11 Berg's album contained both official and private photos.

Regards,
Markus

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by JTV » 19 May 2012 21:38

Juha Tompuri wrote: Wonder from what location the photo is from?
AFAIK not neccessary taken by Uffz. Paul Berg, but from his collection?
Just to throw around the idea a bit: Apparently 163rd was transferred from Syväri/Svir to Lapland in February of 1942 and one would assume that the Germans didn't start building this sort of draisines from captured Soviet equipment early on the war. Which would suggest that the Germans could have operated it it Finnish Lapland, but then the railway network in northern Finland was pretty limited. Kemi - Rovaniemi - Kelloselkä - Kemijärvi - Salla - Kantalahti railway would seem most obvious place to use such vehicle for securing railway traffic?

Jarkko

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by Harri » 22 May 2012 23:10

Note that the rail gauge was different in Finland and USSR to that in Central Europe and German-occupied eastern areas.

It is not well known that in the summer 1944 together with Gefechtverband Kuhlmey at Immola airbase (then at Ruokolahti, nowadays Imatra) there was also a German "anti-aircraft train" at Immola railway station. It arrived from Lapland about at the same time as the flying units and its task was to protect the nearby Immola airfield as well as railway station which was an important supply centre. It is possible that parts of the train also protected nearby stations of Rönkkä (Vuoksenniska) and Puntala.

I have no idea of the actual composition of this "AA train" but could this draisine be somehow related to it? Could it for example move railcars or a whole train? I have only red about that train from the war diary of the special Finnish command which was at Immola airbase during June and July 1944, so my information is very limited.

What do you think?

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by JTV » 23 May 2012 18:19

Harri wrote:I have no idea of the actual composition of this "AA train" but could this draisine be somehow related to it? Could it for example move railcars or a whole train? I have only red about that train from the war diary of the special Finnish command which was at Immola airbase during June and July 1944, so my information is very limited.
Could have been just normal train with some anti-aircraft guns placed in flatcars. Luftwaffe had units and depots in Finnish Lapland, so it would have made sense to use for supplying additional fuel, bombs and other supplies to Immola and train(s) would have obviously been the most effective transport method. The draisine would have been only useful for guarding a railway line and hence quite useless for that sort of train. I also doubt its engine (probably normal truck engine or two) would have been powerful enought to actually move train of any real size - especially so since the configuration does not seem to be designed for towing anything. Anyway - this discussion is pretty useless without additional data like where this panzer zeppelin actually operated and for which unit and what were its technical specifications.

What I remember didn't Finnish troops run into German train containing anti-aircraft gun or two during battle of Pikku-Berliini in Tornio?

Jarkko

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Re: Armoured draisine in Finland

Post by Fliegende Untertasse » 23 May 2012 19:21

Why is everybody taking as granted that this is a war time photo ?
Could it be interim peace or post-war? From say Leningrad or Porkkala ?
Finnish passenger trains have been running on Soviet rails , situation permitting.

That railroad car 760 should be traceable.

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