Vodla River raid March 1942

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Juha Tompuri
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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#16

Post by Juha Tompuri » 04 Nov 2012, 22:05

Art wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:The difference there is is that the Finnish claims were mentioned as estimates and the Soviet ones AFAIK were mentioned as results of body count.
"Body count" in virtually all cases meant the same estimates.
Aha... didn't know that in Soviet/Russian documents it is so.
Art wrote:"Body count" in virtually all cases meant the same estimates.
In Finnish it was/is the opposite.
Art wrote:According to the report Finns left 51 corpses and 10 prisoners
Art wrote:I don't have any info on names of POWs.
Was the POW number also an estimate or was it as it is written in the report?

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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#17

Post by Art » 05 Nov 2012, 13:48

Juha Tompuri wrote: In Finnish it was/is the opposite.
From my experience it wasn't an exceptional case to count more frags than the real number of Soviet soldiers participating in a battle.
Estimates or counting (whatever you call it) of enemy losses was never particularly reliable and accurate in any army, and the Finnish one was not an exception.


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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#18

Post by Juha Tompuri » 06 Nov 2012, 00:11

Art wrote:Estimates or counting (whatever you call it)
As mentioned before, two different things.
Art wrote:Estimates or counting (whatever you call it) of enemy losses was never particularly reliable and accurate in any army, and the Finnish one was not an exception.
AFAIK there seem to have been some national differences, and also differences inside a nation.
At Soviet side the partisans (at least at Finnish front) belonging not to the most reliable one.
Was the POW number also an estimate or was it as it is written in the report?
?

Regards, Juha

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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#19

Post by Jagala » 06 Nov 2012, 08:41

Art wrote:From my experience it wasn't an exceptional case to count more frags than the real number of Soviet soldiers participating in a battle.
Even at the risk of huge thread drift I am curious enought to learn of a few such cases,

It was entirely normal to overestimate (a) the numbers of the enemy and (b) the effect of own direct and indirect fire upon the enemy. In some circumstances it could therefore be quite unexeceptional to find that the estimates of enemy losses were overoptimistic by a large margin: a concentration of enemy "on the other side" destroyed by artillery, an enemy attack repulsed, a night time raid upon an enemy base etc.


Art wrote:Estimates or counting (whatever you call it) of enemy losses was never particularly reliable and accurate in any army, and the Finnish one was not an exception.
It would appear to me that the difficulty and even the nature of the task of estimating enemy casualties, especially KIA, can vary greatly. In the case of a relatively small-scale engagement in a situation where the battle field is rather a limited area which is left uncontested by the enemy, it would be far easier to conduct an actual count of enemy KIA - and in the event that the enemy had not or had not been able to evacuate its own KIA there would be little need to add any estimate to the count.

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Eisenfaust
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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#20

Post by Eisenfaust » 07 Nov 2012, 22:24

Here is a document that has KIA, MIA and WIA.
Attachments
01.jpg
02.jpg
03.jpg

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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#21

Post by Art » 10 Nov 2012, 17:36

Jagala wrote: Even at the risk of huge thread drift I am curious enought to learn of a few such cases
Sure. Out of a company with some 70 men that landed on Hannustiensaari on 5 July 1944 the Finns reportedly killed 110 on 5 and 6 July. Out of a battalion of some 300 men that landed on Hapenensaari and Hannustiensaari on 7/8 July 410 men were reportedly killed and 37 were taken prisoners. Of this number 210 were allegedly killed on the islands and further 200 drowned in the sea. Even the number 210 is a way too large. According documents from the Soviet side the opposing 185 Rifle Regiment lost 194 men as killed and missing in action from 5 to 9 July (probably including some losses from the earlier period).
It was entirely normal to overestimate (a) the numbers of the enemy and (b) the effect of own direct and indirect fire upon the enemy
Right. From a more cynical angle what was a motivation for staff officer to estimate enemy losses accurately? There wasn't much. Everything I know about human behavior suggests that most of them wouldn't try very hard.

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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#22

Post by Juha Tompuri » 10 Nov 2012, 22:12

Of course there are always some exceptions to the rule, but in general (I think you too accept the fact that) Finnish figures are/were/have been (far) more reliable than the Soviet ones.

The examples you posted were based more or less at estimates, but this one is clearly said to be an exact number, result of a body/POW count:
Art wrote: According to the report Finns left 51 corpses and 10 prisoners
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Was the POW number also an estimate or was it as it is written in the report?
?

Regards, Juha
?

Regards, Juha
Last edited by Juha Tompuri on 10 Nov 2012, 23:13, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: typo/info correcting

Mangrove
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Re: Vodla River raid March 1942

#23

Post by Mangrove » 23 Nov 2019, 18:32

Finnish translation of an article published on "Krasnaya Zvezda" ("Red Star") on 22 March 1942. According to the article, Soviet forces destroyed two Finnish patrols during March 1942. The other (at Vodla River) lost 45 as KIA and 8 as POW as well as 40 "automatics" (sub-machine guns?) were captured. The other, supposedly lead by Lt. Col. (Ali?) Koskimaa, lost 33 as KIA and 12 as POW as well as 12 "automatics", 30 rifles, 60 grenades, 2 pistols and c. 3000 cartridges were captured.

Source: National Archives of Finland, folder T-17786/2.
Ssaal.asiak.53.jpg

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