About soviet captured AT gun

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yura-vn
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About soviet captured AT gun

Post by yura-vn » 18 Feb 2013 08:48

Hello!
Anybody help me with next question. On site http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/AT_GUNS2.htm I saw next info about
soviet captured 45mm AT gun: distance-500 m, angle-90 degrees, penetration-53 mm. Author of this site refers on the book "Punaiset Panssarit". Anybody have this book? Where the author of this book got this information? Whether it refers to the archival sources and what their archival links?
Thank you!

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JTV
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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by JTV » 19 Feb 2013 06:20

Hi. Welcome to forum.

Unfortunately the book does not mention source for this information. The table containing information is on page 168 and the previous page indicates that the information in that table is for Soviet APHE-round which had 1.425-kg projectile and muzzle velocity of 760 m/sec, but nothing more. The information is actually for 45-mm (L/46) tank gun, but since its ballistics and armour penetration performance were identical to 45-mm antitank-gun with L/46 barrel, in this case I used it for antitank-guns.

Jarkko

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by yura-vn » 19 Feb 2013 08:31

Hello, Jarkko!

So sorry that the book does not refer to archival links. In Russia now has one D.Shein says that the Soviet 45mm AT gun could not fight against the German tanks PzKpwf-III and PzKpwf-IV in the frontal projection. In the Finnish WIKI write that it could destroy tanks PzKpwf-III and IV at a distance about 700m. If I could specify the archival references to the results Finish fire tests 45mm gun, I would have proved that it is not so bad. Sorry, there is no possibility to do it. :(

With best regards, Yuriy.

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by JTV » 20 Feb 2013 06:19

I have some test reports from Finnish Army armour penetration tests with various types of ammunition, so I checked those. At least at the moment I was able to locate only one test report containing info about Soviet 45-mm APHE-rounds. The particular test report is about armour penetration tests of antitank-weapons done by Tank Battalion (Panssaripataljoona) in 2nd of October 1940 - 12th of June 1941 with the report being written 15th of June 1941.

Armour plates used in this test:
- 16-mm armour plate, hardness 477 Brinell, taken from Soviet tank (representing frontal armour of T-26).
- 20-mm armour plate, hardness 477 - 496 Brinell, manufactured by Bofors or Vickers (representing side hull armour of T-28).
- 30-mm armour plate, hardness 477 - 514 Brinell, manufactured by Bofors (representing frontal armour of T-28).
- 60-mm armour plate, hardness 461 - 477 Brinell, manufactured by Lokomo (representing turret armour of T-35).
- Two armour plates on top of each other, front plate 30-mm, rear plate 20-mm, 80-mm gap in between plates.

Test shooting done to steel plates tightly propped to timber frames at impact angle of 60 degrees.
...

Soviet 45-mm tank gun model 1932 with APHE-round:
- 20-mm plate from 1000 meters: Penetrated
- 30-mm plate from 400 meters: Penetrated, but hole all the way through armour only 30-mm in diameter.
- 30-mm plate from 600 meters: Did not penetrate. Front of the plate had a dint 5 - 10 mm deep and a bulge on back of the plate.

Jarkko

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Feb 2013 20:28

JTV wrote:Hi. Welcome to forum.

Unfortunately the book does not mention source for this information. The table containing information is on page 168 and the previous page indicates that the information in that table is for Soviet APHE-round which had 1.425-kg projectile and muzzle velocity of 760 m/sec, but nothing more.
Jarkko, a small detail - at your webpage that Soviet ammo is (a typo?) mentioned to be a AP one.

Yuriy, welcome to this Forum.
The "Punaiset Panssarit" (Red Tanks) book has four page long list of Finnish and international sources at pages 502-505.
The penetration figures must be at one of them, my guess is that from some penetration tests, maybe from Finnish.
Candidates to the source might be the T-26 panssarivaunu, aseet ja optiset välineet and 10 Psv/T-26, Aseet ja optiset välineet (T-26 tank, weapons and optics) from 1949 and 1952

Regards, Juha

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by paspartoo » 20 Feb 2013 21:11

yura-vn wrote:
In Russia now has one D.Shein says that the Soviet 45mm AT gun could not fight against the German tanks PzKpwf-III and PzKpwf-IV in the frontal projection.
.
It depends on the model. For ‘Barbarossa’ almost all Pz III’s had 30mm all around armor, with some having 30+30 front or later 50mm. It seems that the 45mm gun would be unable to penetrate the last two versions from the front.

For the Pz IV front hull and turret were 30mm but sides were 15-20. Again a small number had 50mm front or 30+30.

I don’t think that the penetration data for the 45mm gun shows that it could not fight against the German tanks. It simply could not penetrate Pz III and IV frontally at more than ~500m. Against the sides it could destroy 20mm at 1kmm, so Pz IV was in danger.
A simple economist with an unhealthy interest in military and intelligence history.....
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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by JTV » 20 Feb 2013 21:13

Juha Tompuri wrote: Jarkko, a small detail - at your webpage that Soviet ammo is (a typo?) mentioned to be a AP one.
Yes, that is an error in the website, not AP but APHE. I spotted it yesterday and plan fixing it in the next update.
Candidates to the source might be the T-26 panssarivaunu, aseet ja optiset välineet and 10 Psv/T-26, Aseet ja optiset välineet (T-26 tank, weapons and optics) from 1949 and 1952.
It is not T 26 Psv aseet ja optiset välineet - I have year 1952 edition and it does not contain the information.

Jarkko

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Feb 2013 21:48

JTV wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote: Jarkko, a small detail - at your webpage that Soviet ammo is (a typo?) mentioned to be a AP one.
Yes, that is an error in the website, not AP but APHE. I spotted it yesterday and plan fixing it in the next update.
Anyway, not that big thing.
JTV wrote:
Candidates to the source might be the T-26 panssarivaunu, aseet ja optiset välineet and 10 Psv/T-26, Aseet ja optiset välineet (T-26 tank, weapons and optics) from 1949 and 1952.
It is not T 26 Psv aseet ja optiset välineet - I have year 1952 edition and it does not contain the information.
Thanks, at that case some other source then. Any suggestions?

Regards, Juha

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by JTV » 20 Feb 2013 22:02

Juha Tompuri wrote:
JTV wrote: It is not T 26 Psv aseet ja optiset välineet - I have year 1952 edition and it does not contain the information.
Thanks, at that case some other source then. Any suggestions?
Nothing obvious listed in Finnish language section of source materials - could be one of the English or German language publications?

Jarkko

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by Juha Tompuri » 20 Feb 2013 22:18

JTV wrote:Nothing obvious listed in Finnish language section of source materials - could be one of the English or German language publications?
I a bit doubt about the English ones - what would the original source been?
German ones might well have been the source, as the Soviet ones are ruled out?

This one sounds interesting (even seemingly based on Finnish tests):
"Bericht über russische Kampfwagen auf Grund einer Besichtigung erbeutener Kampfwagen in Hämenlinna, Finnland (T-27, Komsomoletz, T-26, OT-26, OT-130, OT-133, T-28)" composed in 1940 or 1941.

What T-27?

Regards, Juha

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by yura-vn » 23 Feb 2013 17:32

JTV wrote:Soviet 45-mm tank gun model 1932 with APHE-round:
- 20-mm plate from 1000 meters: Penetrated
- 30-mm plate from 400 meters: Penetrated, but hole all the way through armour only 30-mm in diameter.
- 30-mm plate from 600 meters: Did not penetrate.
I very confused. In Soviet top secret report from GAU #3837/4cc written next penetrate values for 45mm APHE shell on 30 degrees from normal: 30mm armor (K=2400) from distance 1000m. On your site written 33mm from 1000m with angle 60 degrees (Table from "Punaiset panssarit"). I don't know where is true data?
paspartoo wrote:It seems that the 45mm gun would be unable to penetrate the last two versions from the front.
But additional armor plate on the german tank have very bad bolted mount. Additional armor is broken down after 1-2 shot. This is written in Soviet secret report from CNNI-48 #68c.
Juha Tompuri wrote:What T-27?
T-27 this is Soviet sub-tank based on Carden-Loyd Mk.IV. About 100 of this sub-tanks took part in Winter war. From May 1941 not used as battle equipment. Uses as training tank and artillery tractor.

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by olia » 23 Feb 2013 18:55


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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by John Hilly » 23 Feb 2013 20:22

JTV wrote:Test shooting done to steel plates tightly propped to timber frames at impact angle of 60 degrees.
yura-vn wrote:I very confused. In Soviet top secret report from GAU #3837/4cc written next penetrate values for 45mm APHE shell on 30 degrees from normal: 30mm armor (K=2400) from distance 1000m. On your site written 33mm from 1000m with angle 60 degrees (Table from "Punaiset panssarit"). I don't know where is true data?
Answer to the angles might lay in the way of mesuring. Finns used inpact angle i.e. from vertical. Maybe Soviet 30° angle is from horizontal. Otherwise it really would be hard to understand the differences in results if the real angles indeed were 60° and 30°!

With best,
J-P :milwink:
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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by JTV » 23 Feb 2013 23:57

John Hilly wrote: Answer to the angles might lay in the way of mesuring. Finns used inpact angle i.e. from vertical. Maybe Soviet 30° angle is from horizontal. Otherwise it really would be hard to understand the differences in results if the real angles indeed were 60° and 30°!
Nope.

Jarkko

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Re: About soviet captured AT gun

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Feb 2013 20:20

The discussion about the possible Finnish captured T-27 tankette continues at:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=197151

/Juha

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