Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

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juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 20 Apr 2013 11:47

Thank you really much! People here are unbelievably helpful. Now got the aircraft numbers for both sides, so mostly missing now information on tank/spg equipment (and shape of the formations) and any information on status on infantry divisions.

Ifantry Divisions involved in fighting were:

10
13
46
72
80
90
92
109
124
135
142
168
177
178
221
224
265
268
281
286
314
327
358
372
381
382
45 Guards
63 Guards
64 Guards

In addition there are some indications of 125th division, but I haven't found it to have taken part in any battles, but being just in reserve.

olia
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by olia » 20 Apr 2013 12:56

Usually aviaregiments were understaffed to a quarter. Could be a shortage of aircraft, but more often in 1944, shortage of pilots.

1 Guards Tank Brigade (described as extremely strong[

1GTBr.was in the 1 Guards Tank Army in the Ukraine and in June 1944 was preparing for the Lvov-Sandomierz operation. This unithas never fought on the Leningrad front

juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 20 Apr 2013 14:47

Must have been then mistake in my end. Some my sources speak only of 1st tank brigade instead of guards brigade.

HenryW
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by HenryW » 20 Apr 2013 15:33


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John Hilly
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by John Hilly » 20 Apr 2013 17:33

juhamart wrote:Must have been then mistake in my end. Some my sources speak only of 1st tank brigade instead of guards brigade.
This brigade has been mistakely named as Guards, so you weren't alone...
It was the 1. "Leningrad" tank brigade.

Other topics here in AHF:
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=186846

Sory I hadn't time or skill to find others. But they exist.

J-P :milwink:
"Die Blechtrommel trommelt noch!"

juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 20 Apr 2013 17:43

Thanks, just found a couple by myself.

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=103005

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=138429

These help a lot, thank you all folks!

Still missing strenghts of Baltic Fleet Aviation's units (most interested in ground attack, bombers and fighters)

juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 20 Apr 2013 18:27

Ok, things progressing rapidly, thanks this amazing forum.

One more question: how many assault guns in one russian assault gun regiments in summer 1944. I know that in old organization heavy regiments had 12, medium had 16 and light had 20, but did that change at some point?

juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 22 Apr 2013 09:31

Found out that AG number.

Next question: is there any information about which Anti-tank guns each divisional at-company had in Isthmus?

juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 22 Apr 2013 13:01

Also wondering was whole Baltic Fleets air arm participating as few sources are conflicting about this. Manninen (article linked previously) gives around 220 baltic fleets aircraft participating, but Suomen Ilmasodan pikkujättiläinen gives 3 times that figure.

Art
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by Art » 22 Apr 2013 18:56

juhamart wrote: One more question: how many assault guns in one russian assault gun regiments in summer 1944. I know that in old organization heavy regiments had 12, medium had 16 and light had 20, but did that change at some point?
Each regiment consisted of four batteries with 5 SP guns, plus 1 gun in the regiment HQ.
Next question: is there any information about which Anti-tank guns each divisional at-company had in Isthmus?
Almost always 45-mm AT guns.
Also wondering was whole Baltic Fleets air arm participating as few sources are conflicting about this.
Here is a brie info on order of battle of Army and Navy air forces involved in the Vyborg offensive operation:

13 Air Army of the Leningrad Front
As of 1.06.44:
275 Fighter Aviation Division (14 Guards, 29 Guards, 159, 191, 196 Fighter Aviation Regiments)
276 Bomber Aviation Division (34 Guards, 58, 140 Bomber Aviation Regiments) – Pe-2 bombers
277 Assault Aviation Division (15 Guards, 556, 943, 999 Assault Aviation Regiment) – IL-2
283 Fighter Aviation Regiment
13 Separate Reconnaissance Aviation Regiment
203 Artillery Observation and Reconnaissance Aviation Regiment
Liaison and sanitary units
also under operational control – 2 Guards Fighter Aviation Corps – organizationally part of the Leningrad PVO Army. Composition: 12 Guards, 26 Guards, 27 Guards, 102 Guards, 103 Guards Fighter Aviation Regiments. Also 4 regiments (400, 401, 403, 404 Fighter) in the process of formation

Total with 2 GFAC – 3 bomber, 4 ground-attack, 11 fighter, 2 recon regiments with 101 bomber airplanes (mostly Pe-2), 160 IL-2 and 299 various fighters, total 560 airplanes.
Arrived in early June 1944:
113 Bomber Aviation Division (55, 815, 836, 840 Bomber Aviation Regiments) – IL-4 bombers
281 Assault Aviation Division (448, 703, 872 Assault Aviation Regiments) – IL-2s
334 Bomber Aviation Division (12, 132, 454 Bomber Aviation Regiments) - TU-2 bombers
The last division was withdrawn and sent elsewhere after 20.06.44. It was said to posses 87 TU-2s, how many airplanes the other two had I don’t know. In some official sources (for example the history of the Leningrad military district) total strength of the 13 Air Army with attached PVO fighters is said to be 770 airplanes (250 bombers, 200 IL-2s, and 270 fighters). That seems to be too few compared with numbers quoted above, probably only operational planes are counted

Air forces of the Soviet Baltic Fleet:
1 Guards Fighter Aviation Division (3 Guards, 4 Guards, 10 Guards, 11 Fighter Aviation Regiment)
8 Guards Mine&Torpedo Aviation Division (1 Guards Mine&Torpedo Aviation Regiment (IL-4s, A-20s), 12 Guards Dive Bomber Aviation Regiment (Pe-2), 21 Fighter Aviation Regiment, 51 Mine&Torpedo Aviation Regiment (in training by 1.06.1944 A-20s)
9 Assault Aviation Division (7 Guards, 33 Assault Aviation Regiments (IL-2s), 12 and 13 Fighter Aviation Regiments)
15 Sea Recon Aviation Regiment
13 Sep. Artillery Observation Coastal Squadron
Smaller units (sanitary, liaison etc)
Arrived in early June 1944 from the Black Sea:
11 Assault Aviation Division (8 Guards and 47 Assault Aviation Regiments, 9 Fighter Aviation Regiments)

Total including 3 regiments from the Black Sea: 2 torpedo-bomber, 1 bomber, 4 assault (IL-2s), 8 fighter, 1 recon regiments and an artillery observation squadron. As of 1.06.44 27 torpedo bombers, 26 bombers, 124 IL-2s, 270 fighters, 28 recon, 19 artillery airplanes, total – 494.
By type 9 IL-4s, 18 A-20, 26 Pe-2s, 124 IL-2s, 97 YAKs and 173 LaGGs and LAs in fighter units, 10 PEs, 17 YAKs and 1 MBR-2 in recon units, 19 artillery observation IL-2s. That doesn't include airplanes of the 51 torpedo-bomber regiment which started operations after 20.06.1944. According to another source in 1 June 1944 the Baltic Fleet air force possessed:
626 total /549 operational combat airplanes, including
85/76 LaGG-3
130/120 La-5
22/14 Yak-1
38/34 Yak-7
84/75 Yak-9
Total 359/310 fighter airplanes

52/48 A-20
10/7 IL-4
44/39 Pe-2
Total 106/94 bombers

159/143 IL-2

2/2 recon A-20

This stats could actually pertain to a later date, I guess. Units arriving form the Black Sea seem to be included.

Art
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by Art » 22 Apr 2013 19:05

The source of info on numerical composition (in Spanish):
http://www.rkka.es/Estadisticas/VVS_stat/02/02_10.htm
http://www.rkka.es/Estadisticas/VVS_stat/02/02_17.htm
http://www.rkka.es/Estadisticas/VVS_stat/03/03_13.htm
That's a translation of an official digest "Soviet air forces in the GPW in numbers"

juhamart
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by juhamart » 23 Apr 2013 08:00

Thank you,

Do you have any sources that would state when those forming regiments (400, 401, 403, 404 Fighter) were ready to commit to the battle? Their strength is listed in various Finnish sources and would beef up Soviet fighter strength considerably (bit over 100 fighters in those units). Otherwise your sources seem to be well in line with Finnish sources.

Would still be interested in if all the Baltic Fleet's fighters participated in the operations against Finns or were some diverted to other tasks. Also how big percentage of Baltic Fleet's planes participated in actual ground fighting instead of naval operations is mystery to me.

Art
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by Art » 23 Apr 2013 08:11

I would say that in the battle of the Vyborg Bay which was the high point of the Baltic Fleet air forces effort practically all regiments took part except 1st Guards and 51st torpedo-bomber regiments.

olia
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by olia » 23 Apr 2013 12:00

1st Guards and 51st torpedo-bomber regiments together with 12 gv.BAP mainly operated at Finnish ports as a top-masthead ( Kotka-Niobe)

Esa K
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Re: Russian OOB during 1944 Offensive on Karelian Isthmus

Post by Esa K » 23 Apr 2013 15:04

Hi!

In list of self-propelled gun units, observe that 1439 САП is the same unit as 351 Gv TSAP, it changed name at 17/6 1944.


Best regards

Esa K

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