Finns vs. partisans

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
Vaeltaja
Member
Posts: 886
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 20:42

Finns vs. partisans

Post by Vaeltaja » 15 May 2013 16:59

So.. I am fairly well aware of the attacks against civilians for which there appear to be existing threads so let's try to avoid concentrating on those.

As to the actual question... What did the partisans accomplish? I mean what they did they accomplish in reality, not in the rather imaginative descriptions found from Soviet era archives.

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1804
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Mangrove » 16 May 2013 14:24

Compared to their overwhelming (estimated) manpower against the Finnish counterparts during 1942-1944, the partisans accomplished very little against Finnish military targets. For example many of the companies guarding the rear had less than 100 men in their disposal in mid-1942. The problem was partly addressed by transferring the Aunuksen Heimosoturipataljoona to guard duty in July 1942. None of the Finnish military police companies operating in Northern Lapland reported any contact with the partisans or desants during 1943 or 1944.

Here are some individual cases worth mentioning as examples. The Finnish civilian police shot to death four desants/partisans who resisted arrest at Kiiminki in September 1942. It seems the Soviets were counting the traffic, but also raiding individual cars passing by them.

Partisans destroyed a small wooden bridge and a Finnish car carrying the Bishop of Oulu, Yrjö Wallinmaa, at Inari on 4 July 1943. The Bishop was killed during a firefight.

Soviet patrol destroyed a German car with a mine, killed four of the passengers inside and wounded two on 18 July 1943. The car was travelling 7 km east of Aholanvaara near Hautajärvi. They also blew up a bridge crossing River Maaninkajoki (at Kuntakkivaara?) Immediately after the raid.

Finns lost two lorries, three soldiers as KIA and one as WIA (all from 1./VP 3) near Kolvasjärvi on 15 and 16 September 1942. The Soviet losses were counted as 4 KIA. The Soviet patrol responsible was located near Roukkula on 21 September 1942. The Soviets suffered another 2 men as KIA. Rest of the patrol, 4-6 men, got away. Few days later both parties suffered additional losses in firefights.

Vaeltaja
Member
Posts: 886
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 20:42

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Vaeltaja » 16 May 2013 16:23

Just wondered since from brief glances the 'Soviet Story' seems to go somewhat like this:
Killed 13,000 Finnish/German soldiers (& collaborators, which i suppose is fancy term for stating that they killed civilians), burned or blew up 31 trains, 151 bridges, destroyed 7 aircraft, 11 armored vehicles, 34 artillery pieces, 314 other vehicles. In addition to destroying 53 Finnish/German garrisons & 66 military barracks (i suppose these refer to field outposts or 'kenttävartio'), 1 railway station and 78 warehouses.

Above text loosely translated (likely with errors) from ru-wiki page handling partisans in Karelia (all info seemed to be cited too).


'Slight' discrepancy...

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 1928
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 10:03
Location: Finland

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by JTV » 16 May 2013 17:11

Vaeltaja wrote:... In addition to destroying 53 Finnish/German garrisons & 66 military barracks (i suppose these refer to field outposts or 'kenttävartio')...
...or they may refer to civilian buildings, as noted in atrocities thread burned civilian houses were apparently routinely listed as "garrisons and military barracks".

When it comes to big picture, the only conlusion seems to be that Soviet partisans failed to reach anything militarically significant against Finnish Army. The material damage that they causes was minor scale and the military losses of Finnish military notably smaller than what the partisan units themselves suffered in their operations. Also, if their intention was to force Finnish military to concentrate large military resources into securing rear areas, they do not seem to have succeeded in such a scale, that it would have made any difference. With a hindsight one could note, that if the Soviets would have transferred the manpower and equipment issued to their partisan units in Finnish front to their normal Red Army units, it might have been more effective use of their resources.

Jarkko

Art
Forum Staff
Posts: 5340
Joined: 04 Jun 2004 19:49
Location: Moscow, Russia

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Art » 16 May 2013 18:45

Mangrove wrote:Compared to their overwhelming (estimated) manpower against the Finnish counterparts during 1942-1944, the partisans accomplished very little against Finnish military targets. For example many of the companies guarding the rear had less than 100 men in their disposal in mid-1942.
The partisans in Karelia had between 1000 and 2000 men (I can post more detailed info if someone is interested) - hardly a superior force to Finns.

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1804
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Mangrove » 16 May 2013 19:16

Art wrote: The partisans in Karelia had between 1000 and 2000 men (I can post more detailed info if someone is interested) - hardly a superior force to Finns.
I believe the partisans had the possibility of forming large groups consisted of several hundred man, if they wanted so. They also had the possibility of choosing the location where they would penetrate the lines.

Between Petsamo and Salla, i.e. 350 kilometers, Finns could employ nine (9) anti-partisan companies ("Ilmasuojelukomppania") compromised of 333 men (less than 1 per kilometer) in September 1942. Between Salla and Karhumäki, Finns had eight (8) companies or 678 men. That is 1.5 men per kilometer (450 km) or around 50-100 square kilometers per a man.

Vaeltaja
Member
Posts: 886
Joined: 27 Jul 2010 20:42

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Vaeltaja » 16 May 2013 19:48

JTV wrote:...or they may refer to civilian buildings, as noted in atrocities thread burned civilian houses were apparently routinely listed as "garrisons and military barracks".
Forgot those 'military barracks'. Yeah, could be.
JTV wrote:When it comes to big picture, the only conlusion seems to be that Soviet partisans failed to reach anything militarically significant against Finnish Army. The material damage that they causes was minor scale and the military losses of Finnish military notably smaller than what the partisan units themselves suffered in their operations. Also, if their intention was to force Finnish military to concentrate large military resources into securing rear areas, they do not seem to have succeeded in such a scale, that it would have made any difference. With a hindsight one could note, that if the Soviets would have transferred the manpower and equipment issued to their partisan units in Finnish front to their normal Red Army units, it might have been more effective use of their resources.

Jarkko
All true.

However what i was after was the exact achievements (i.e. Finnish losses) caused by the partisans, not so much on the number of men lost but more on the equipment. For example, how many aircraft did partisans really destroy, how many tanks or trains (and so on)? I would be grateful if you could point me to a some sort of source from which this information could be found. I'm just not that anxious to start digging through digi-narc for the information.

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1804
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Mangrove » 17 May 2013 10:57

Vaeltaja wrote:For example, how many aircraft did partisans really destroy, how many tanks or trains (and so on)?
I believe the only Finnish aeroplane destroyed by the partisans is the Fokker D.XXI destroyed at Tiiksjärvi aerodrome on 30 October 1941(?). The only armoured vehicles near partisan infested zones were the few armoured cars controlled by the 5th Separate Armoured Car Platoon (5.Er.Ps.Auto.J) between 21 May 1943 and 31 October 1944. However, they did not suffer any losses due to partisan activity.

Another typical example of small-scale raiding: The partisans attacked a courier car near Mujejärvi on 6 June 1943. The car was destroyed, but no lives were lost. The raiding party was compromised of around 10-15 men.

BarSeek
Member
Posts: 105
Joined: 14 Sep 2007 07:52
Location: Käkisalmi

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by BarSeek » 17 May 2013 16:08

At the meeting of partisan commanders held in Belomorsk 22.5.1942 major general Kuprianov said among other matters (quote from "The Brigade" by German Chumakov):
Some our commanders and commissars and thus their subordinates are humanitarian too much in their attitude towards the enemy. I am speaking about the case of discussing the question in partisan detachment "Vpered" (=Forward) - whether it was necessary to destroy two trucks with wounded men of white Finns.
What was the case that Kuprianov spoke about ?

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 1928
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 10:03
Location: Finland

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by JTV » 17 May 2013 17:16

The only Finnish losses of armoured vehicles that come to mind as possibly being caused by Soviet partisans are BAF armoured cars of 7th Separate Armoured Car Platoon in July of 1944. These two armoured cars were damaged due to antitank-mines placed on a road in Kivijärvi - Vuokkiniemi area in present day Kostamus / Kostamuksa. First of the armoured cars was SA-20, which drove to antitank-mine in 18th of July 1944 while on its way to secure return of patrol lead by Lieutenant Kyyrö arriving to Vuokkiniemi. This happened 19.8 kilometers from Vuokkiniemi. The another armoured car to drive on antitank-mine was SA-21, which did that while escorting the evacuation crew to damaged SA-20 in 21st of July 1944. In this case the antitank-mine was about 19 kilometers from Kivijärvi. Both armoured cars were seriously damaged (broken axle etc) but there were no casualities and both vehicles were sent to home front to be repaired.

Jarkko
Last edited by JTV on 17 May 2013 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Juha Tompuri
Forum Staff
Posts: 11432
Joined: 11 Sep 2002 20:02
Location: Mylsä

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Juha Tompuri » 17 May 2013 17:42

Mangrove wrote:I believe the only Finnish aeroplane destroyed by the partisans is the Fokker D.XXI destroyed at Tiiksjärvi aerodrome on 30 October 1941(?).
FR-138 was destroyed and FR-141 damaged on 29th September 1941 at a Soviet partisan/guerilla attack at Tiiksjärvi.

Regards, Juha

Mangrove
Member
Posts: 1804
Joined: 25 Dec 2004 01:33

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by Mangrove » 17 May 2013 20:53

BarSeek wrote: What was the case that Kuprianov spoke about ?
He might have been referring to an attack that took place on the 15th of October 1941. Circa 15 men strong Soviet patrol attacked a Finnish medical convoy belonging to the 20. Sairasautokomppania c. 4 km E of Nova Tiiksa. There were no losses on the Finnish side.

User avatar
JTV
Member
Posts: 1928
Joined: 11 Mar 2002 10:03
Location: Finland

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by JTV » 18 May 2013 05:12

Mangrove wrote:
BarSeek wrote: What was the case that Kuprianov spoke about ?
He might have been referring to an attack that took place on the 15th of October 1941. Circa 15 men strong Soviet patrol attacked a Finnish medical convoy belonging to the 20. Sairasautokomppania c. 4 km E of Nova Tiiksa. There were no losses on the Finnish side.
But that would not be just speculation? The only way to know for sure would be to find report with more details from Russian archives...

Jarkko

kuuskajaskari
Member
Posts: 121
Joined: 02 Nov 2010 19:32
Location: kakonkulma

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by kuuskajaskari » 18 May 2013 22:32

Serious question, I was wondering the question for a long time.
No idea what`s the key...
Partisans against civilians is the right topic for me ...
Those such groups were never part of the military.

Looking some photos by SA-kuva about "partisaanit", or those books .......

Still feeling sick.

User avatar
igor_verh
Member
Posts: 236
Joined: 23 Jun 2011 19:14
Location: Russia

Re: Finns vs. partisans

Post by igor_verh » 16 Jun 2013 16:37

Vaeltaja wrote: What did the partisans accomplish? I mean what they did they accomplish in reality, not in the rather imaginative descriptions found from Soviet era archives.
Unfortunately, most part of the information about partisans action in Karelia during WW2 - only from soviet archives, almost all witnesses and participants of that events died many years ago, but memoirs of some veterans from their books or interviews, which were published after 1990s, has many differences from the official versions.
Main operations of karelian partisans:
- 10 January 1942: seven partisans detachments attacked four finnish garrisons in villages Klimenitsy, Sennaya Guba, Konda, Voevnavolok and captured Big Klimenitskiy island on Onego Lake. As a result of the operation were killed 71 and captured 15 Finnish soldiers, captured 10 hevy and 5 light machine guns, 2 smg, 50 rifles, 80 grenades, 8 horses, one radio station, two telephone switches and many other military equipment. Partisans lost 15 KIA and 39 WIA.
- 9 March 1942: destruction of the Finnish sabotage detachment on Onego Lake between Shala and Vasilisin island.
- Summer 1942: unsuccessful raid of 1st Pertisan Brigade (6 detachments) in finnish rear. According soviet sources, the presence of large partisan unit on occupied territory did not allow to finnish army began an offensive near Maselgskaya at summer 1942 - but did finnish command really had a plans of it?
- 17 January 1943 four partisans detachments attacked three garrisons in villages Lindome, Tambits Lighthouse and Krestovaya Guba on Zaonezhskiy Peninsula. The operation results: 245 finnish soldiers were killed, were destroyed 6 cannons and 3 mortars, two radio stations, one searchlight installation, burned seven warehouses with food and military equipment, were captured prisoners and many weapons.
- 10-11 March 1943: four partisans detachments attacked a finnish garrison in Merguba village, destroyed large warehouses with ammunition, garage with cars, artillery battery (76 mm cannons) and bridge on Chirka-Kem river.
Art wrote:The partisans in Karelia had between 1000 and 2000 men
6 september 1941: 14 detachments - 1565 partisans
25 october 1941: 17 detachments - 1169 partisans
10 june 1942: one partisan brigade & 5 detachments - 1577 partisans
1 january 1943: 18 detachments & 6 sabotage groups - 1699 partisans
Mangrove wrote:I believe the only Finnish aeroplane destroyed by the partisans is the Fokker D.XXI destroyed at Tiiksjärvi aerodrome on 30 October 1941(?). The only armoured vehicles near partisan infested zones were the few armoured cars controlled by the 5th Separate Armoured Car Platoon (5.Er.Ps.Auto.J) between 21 May 1943 and 31 October 1944.
At 27 March 1942 partisans from 1st Partisan Brigade shot down a finnish plane near Shala. That fighter landed on ice of Onego Lake.
From reference of combat activities of partisan det. "Krasniy onezhets" ("Красный онежец"):
... Makariev Vladimir Nikolaevich - at 17 august during fight in enemy rear by fire from his machine gun shot down finnish hydroplane...
From report in political governance of Karelian front ( autumn 1941):
Tiden's detachment ("Krasniy onezhets") attacked Muezero village, killed 16 finnish soldiers, captured 1, destroyed 2 hydroplanes.

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”