Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

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Mangrove
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Mangrove » 03 Jun 2013 14:39

Here are all of the Finnish La-5 claims from the 26th of June at Tali region, starting from Captain Puhakka's claim and not in any particular order. According to various ground force diaries (e.g. Ps.DE), the aerial combat Puhakka took part of began immediately after 1.05 p.m. Finnish time.

Source: T 19284/122.

[on] 26 June 1944, 12.55 a.m. - 2.15 p.m.
[at] Tali, [at] 1000 meters.
1 LA-5 destroyed c. 4 kilometers E of Tali at the southern end of the Lake Lyykylänjärvi.

While escorting [bombers], we encountered four Airacobras and two LA-5s. I shot down a LA-5 which crashed burning into rocks at the shore of Lake Lyykylänjärvi.

I observed the wreckage and a large oil spill at the aforementioned location. [Signed] WO O.K. Paronen.

[Flying] MT-427
Capt. Olli Puhakka
1. 26.6.44, klo 12.55 - 14.15
2. Tali, 1000 m.
3. Tuhottu yksi LA-5.
4. Lyykylänjärven eteläranta n. 4 km. Talista itään.

5. Suojauslennolla ollessamme tapasimme 4- AC- ja 2- LA-5- konetta. Ammuin alas yhden LA-5:n, joka putosi palavana Lyykylänjärven rantakiville.
6. Näin koneen jäännöksiä ja suuren öljyläikän rannassa k.o. paikassa. Vääp. O.K. Paronen.

MT-427.
Kapt. Olli Puhakka
[...]
[on] 26 June 1944, 2.50 a.m. - 3.50 p.m.
[at] Pero-Tali-Kavantsaari, [at] 2000-500 meters.
1 LA-5 destroyed NE of Tali, crashed into a forest.

I was escorting the Blenheims at Tali. After they had left, Ju-87s appeared and were attacked by Yak-9s and La-5s. I helped the comrades-in-arms and managed to shoot down a La-5, which crashed burning at the aforementioned location.

I observed the battle
[Signed] Capt. [?]

[Flying] MT-454
Lt. Olavi Puro
1. 26.6.43 [sic!], klo 14.50 - 15.50
2. Pero-Tali-Kavantsaari, 2000-500 m.
3. Tuhottu 1 kpl. La-5.
4. Talin koillispuolelle metsään.
5. Olin BL:ien suojauslennolla Talissa. Sen päätyttyä ilmestyivät Ju-87:t pommittamaan ja niiden kimppuun kävi Jak-9 ja La-5 hävittäjiä. Ryhdyin auttamaan aseveljiä, ja onnistuin pudottamaan yhden La-5 hävittäjän, joka putosi palavana edellämainittuun paikkaan.
6. Näin tapahtuman. Kapt. [?]

MT-454
Luutn. Olavi Puro
[...]
[on] 26 June 1944, 1.05 p.m. - 2.20 p.m.
[at] Juustila-Karisalmi-Lyykylänjärvi, [at] 210-3000 meters.
1 LA-5 and 2 IL-2 destroyed. The La-5 was observed crashing into Lake Lyykylänjärvi. [...]

We encountered several, c. 4-5 La-5, over Tali. I shot one from a turn, but climbed due to the two La-5s behind and over me. Lt. Saarinen observed a La-5 crashing into Lake Lyykylänjärvi at the same time.

Immediately after the contact with the flight of LA-5s, I observed one of them crashing. [...] [Signed] Lt. Jorma Saarinen.

[Flying] MT-436
WO N. Katajainen
1. 26.6.44, klo 13.05 - 14.20
2. Juustila-Karisalmi-Lyykylänjärvi, 10-3000 m.
3. 1 La-5:n, 2 IL-2:a tuhottu.
4. La-5:n nähty putoavan Lyykylänjärveen. [...]
5. Talin yläpuolella kohtasimme useita n. 4-5 La-5:a, ammuin yhtä kaarrosta, vedin yli koska takanani ylempänä oli 2:si konetta. Samanaikaisesti näki luutn. Saarinen La-5:n putoavan Lyykylänjärveen. [...]
6. Heti kohdattuamme LA-5 -parven, näin yhden koneen putoavan. [...] Luutn. Jorma Saarinen

MT-436
Vääp. N. Katajainen
[on] 26 June 1944, 10.55 a.m. - 12.20 a.m.
[at] Karisalmi-Tali-[?], [at] 300-2000 meters.
1 LA-5 destroyed, [last seen] diving uncontrolled towards Tammisuo region.

While intercepting [?] aerial combat with several enemy fighters. I fired several of the planes and one of them started smoking after I fired it close range from behind and side.

I saw Lt. Suhonen firing at an enemy fighter from c. 50 meters. Later I observed a fire at the aforementioned location. I presume the fire was started by the enemy fighter crashing. SSgt. Vahvelainen.

A 13 mm hole [was found] from the nose of my plane.

[Flying] MT-244
Lt. V. Suhonen.
1. 26.6.44, klo 10.55 - 12.20
2. Karisalmi-Tali-[?], 300-2000 m.
3. Tuhottu 1 La-5.
4. Syöksyi savuten ohjaamattomana Tammisuon seuduille.
5. Torjuntalennolla [?] ilmataisteluun useiden vihollishävittäjien kanssa. Tulitin useita vih. koneita ja sain läheltä takaa sivulta tulittaessa yhden savuamaan. Kone painui syöksyyn ja jatkoi syöksyään maahan asti syttyen maassa palamaan.
6. Näin luutn. Suhosen ampuvan noin 50 m:n päästä vih. hävittäjää. Myöh. näin ko. paikalla tulipalon, jonka oletan aiheutuneen ko. koneen tuhoutumisesta. Ylik. Vahvelainen.
7. 13 mm. osuma oman koneen nokassa.

MT-244
Luutn V. Suhonen.
Last edited by Mangrove on 03 Jun 2013 17:03, edited 1 time in total.

olia
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by olia » 03 Jun 2013 16:01

Serov's aircraft built in aircraft factory # 21 (city Gorky, now Nizhny Novgorod). A serial number of the aircraft can be found in the documents of Aviation Engineering Service 159 IAP in TsAMO.

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peeved
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by peeved » 03 Jun 2013 17:27

According to the war diary of 3rd Flight/HLeLv 34 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4594952 the interception mission where Lt. Trontti went POW was from 1050 to 1200 hours so his loss was probably unrelated to the Serov flight.

Markus

wit61owl
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by wit61owl » 04 Jun 2013 11:02

Hi everybody
I read carefully all the posts and frankly speaking I see no relation of any of Finnish claims to report submited by Olia.
may someone has better look on this metter.
Question to Olia: What is the best way to contact CAMO to get required information from Russian archives?
All the best

CF Geust
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by CF Geust » 04 Jun 2013 12:03

The serial numbers of the La-5s lost by 159 IAP 26 June 1944 were:

Jn.Lt. Tashlykov Nikolai Vasilyevich - 3921FN1055
Jn.Lt. Golovachev V.P. - 39210726
Sn.Lt. Serov Vladimir Georgiyevich - 39214570

Source: TsAMO documents, f. 362,op.6182,d.76 and f.20245,op.2,d.42

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Vaeltaja » 04 Jun 2013 13:36

wit61owl wrote:Hi everybody
I read carefully all the posts and frankly speaking I see no relation of any of Finnish claims to report submited by Olia.
may someone has better look on this metter.
Question to Olia: What is the best way to contact CAMO to get required information from Russian archives?
All the best
Well, if we take the time difference into account, the Soviet flight was reportedly in the area between 1310-1405 Finnish time. Of the Finnish La-5 claims:

Puhakka: 1255-1415
Puro: 1450-1550
Katajainen: 1305-1420

Two of these (Puhakka & Katajainen) coincide with the Soviet flight. What needs to be kept in mind is that what Finns saw and what were the actual Soviet formations could well have been different. Both in aircraft numbers as well in their types. Reading the reports through it does seem to be that the first kill was by Katajainen (against 4 La-5s) after which Puhakka while escorting bombers noticed pair of La-5 (possibly scattered from initial air combat) and pounced on them. Granted that on the other hand it could also be that Puhakka's and Katajainen's claim is actually just 1 aircraft, as in both cases the witnesses report surprisingly similar events for the kills.

But that is just my take on the reports posted here and should be taken with a tad of salt.

wit61owl
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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by wit61owl » 06 Jun 2013 17:51

Yes, this way of events seems fairly resonable. I think that Puhakka's victim was Tashlykov, who's plane crashed into the lake, and death of Serov was Katajainen's work, and one of them shot up Golovachev, however it's only a supposition. I want to thank all who contributed to this post.
All the best.

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Jun 2013 20:40

peeved wrote:According to the war diary of 3rd Flight/HLeLv 34 http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=4594952 the interception mission where Lt. Trontti went POW was from 1050 to 1200 hours so his loss was probably unrelated to the Serov flight.
Trontti case being discussed at: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=199794

Regards, Juha

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by flyingdoctor » 18 Jul 2013 23:09

It was not just capt Puhakkas group and 4 La5 at the airfight . I read from Ilmari Juutilainens book that he and Eino Luukkanen went supporting Puhakkas flight in the afternoon when Puhakkas flight had to escort Blenheims to a bombing raid on a sovjet tank consentration at Ihantala north of Viborg. Since Juutilainen 94 kills, and Lukkanen 56 kills, officially wasent part of the escort they could chase enemy fighters. After the bombs were dropped and bombers on safe way home they turned back to Viborg-Ihantala area because there were enemy fighters there.Also Puhakkas flight did the same. Juutilainen noticed La-5:s Aircobras and Mustangs. Later there also was groundattack planes Il-2:s. Jutilanen shot down 1 mustang, 1 aircobra and 1 IL-2, He dont wright about Luukkanens progress but Luukkanen had a new fighter with still 2 extra kanons attached under wing ( germans used them against bombers, but finns stripped them off) and he was also flying in the area, with all his deadly weponry. It could well been Luukkanens attack from hight that came in late and changed the situation. Luukkanen and Juutilainen often stayed higt to be able to help camardes in need. Thet liked to jump unprepard sovjets that hade there eyes looked on other finns.
In the beginning of the fight Juutilainen shot down mustang witch usually stays higt but in the end he was on groudlever when he shot down Il-2 so maybe Luukkanen +Juutilainen was part of the finns jumping ther russians from above. There we have the 2 groups Puhakkas fligt and then Juutilainen and Luukanen joining from above.Juutilainen and Luukkanen was known for shoting down much more fighters then that they claimed, because they only clamed figters kills when they had withnesses.

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by Mangrove » 19 Jul 2013 19:25

flyingdoctor wrote:I read from Ilmari Juutilainens book that he and Eino Luukkanen went supporting Puhakkas flight in the afternoon when Puhakkas flight had to escort Blenheims to a bombing raid on a sovjet tank consentration at Ihantala north of Viborg.
According to H.Le.Lv.34's flight logbook, Juutilainen flew several flights on the day in question. The first was a reconnaissance flight with MT-423 between 9.35 and 10.35 a.m.. The second was an escort flight to Tali with MT-422 between 1.00 and 2.10 p.m. Juutilainen claimed a P-51, a P-39 and an IL-2 during the flight. The third, and last flight, was again a reconnaissance flight with MT-423 between 7.25 and 8.10 p.m.

However, Luukkanen did not fly any missions on the 26th of June 1944.
flyingdoctor wrote:Juutilainen and Luukkanen was known for shoting down much more fighters then that they claimed, because they only clamed figters kills when they had withnesses.
Known by who, other than by themselves? Also, there was a standing order to report any combat with enemy aeroplanes, even if the result was not a damaged or destroyed enemy plane.

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Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

Post by flyingdoctor » 21 Jul 2013 17:31

    Sorry Juutilainen wingman was sergant "Eika" Lyly, but because of nickname i thougt it was major Eino "Eikka" Luukkanen. Lyly had only 10 confirmed kills witch makes it less problabel his could have shot down one of the 3 downed La-3.

    The comander of 24 fighter sqadron , said he knew Juutilanen got confirmed kills on about 2/3 of the planes he shot down.Rules for confirmed kill was quit strikt. An example, fighter disepering with engine stoppt falling inverted into dustcloud at groundlever is not a confirmed kill. Bomber turning home with both engines stopped is not confirmed kill, but if plane in a few days are found on ground its confirmed. But many planes crashed in lakes or in forest without creating forestfire and was never found.

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    Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

    Post by Mangrove » 21 Jul 2013 17:55

    flyingdoctor wrote: Sorry Juutilainen wingman was sergant "Eika" Lyly, but because of nickname i thougt it was major Eino "Eikka" Luukkanen.
    Indeed Lyly flew a mission with Juutilainen to Tali between 1.00 and 1.55 p.m. on that day.
    flyingdoctor wrote: The comander of 24 fighter sqadron , said he knew Juutilanen got confirmed kills on about 2/3 of the planes he shot down.
    Do you have a source for this claim?

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    Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

    Post by flyingdoctor » 24 Sep 2013 09:25

    Mangrove wrote:
    flyingdoctor wrote: Sorry Juutilainen wingman was sergant "Eika" Lyly, but because of nickname i thougt it was major Eino "Eikka" Luukkanen.
    Indeed Lyly flew a mission with Juutilainen to Tali between 1.00 and 1.55 p.m. on that day.
    flyingdoctor wrote: The comander of 24 fighter sqadron , said he knew Juutilanen got confirmed kills on about 2/3 of the planes he shot down.
    Do you have a source for this claim?
    The comment from the sqadronleader i read on internet, cant find it now.
    On Wikipedia it says Juutilainen caimed 126 kills but only 94 confirmed.
    In addition to those, there were many shared kills, never claimed.
    In an interwiev (by John Guttman) Juutilainen tells that after his first shared kill,1/6, he never claimed kills that was shared but gave them to the younger pilot.

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    Hanski
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    Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

    Post by Hanski » 02 Nov 2013 22:55

    Captain Olli Puhakka photographed in Lappeenranta on 19 June 1944. SA-kuva # 155488.
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    Re: Kapt Olli Puhakka's claim 26.06.1944

    Post by Topspeed » 05 Nov 2013 14:23

    olia wrote:In many Soviet documents Finns often named as Germans or German-Finnish Nazis. The documents of 1941 named the "White Finns, Finnish fascists". Typical in 1944 the " Nazis", or simply the Germans. The fact that Serov was killed in a battle with the German aircraft does not mean that the plane had German markings, it could be Finnish, but Soviet pilots did not have difference between Finnish or German. Earlier Serov fought only with Germans: south of Leningrad (1942), during the break(1943), and complete lifting of the blockade of Leningrad and at the Narva bridgehead(1944)
    Yeah...Soviet propaganda. Isn't it funny that finns had been also enlisted for the british army in Kola peninsula to fight white russians in 1914 or about that time ?

    ------------------------------------------------------
    This side track can be continued here http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 9&t=203202

    /Juha

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