Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

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Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 22 Jul 2013 12:56

I was trying to find out did Kössi do the world record when he downed 5 Il-2s in matter of minute ?

He claims in his book he shot down 5 outa 6 Il-2 that had been bombing Lappeenranta. There is also a infantry sergeant who saw a finnish Me-109 G shooting one after another 6 outa 6 Il-2s. Standing on a hill lookin as they flew past them ( his platoon ).

It is his unofficial kills and he was never credited the Mannerheim cross as the best reservist pilot as Eino Liuukkanen had wished as he made a proposition for it.

I wonder how come such an outstanding aviator was not credited and are his kills on this day 2.7.1944 verifyiable.

I know for fact soviets had revealed 10 Il-2s gone missing that day and finns had signed of 7 of them.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 22 Jul 2013 15:44

Topspeed wrote: He claims in his book he shot down 5 outa 6 Il-2 that had been bombing Lappeenranta.
I trust you are referring to the 2007 semibiographical book "Kyösti Karhila: Reservipilottien ykkösässä".
Topspeed wrote: I wonder how come such an outstanding aviator was not credited and are his kills on this day 2.7.1944 verifyiable.
According to the Karhila's personal diary and research by G. F. Geust printed on the aforementioned book, Karhila indeed shot down five 281 ShAD's IL-2s on that day. However, having no actual evidence, he could not claim them as destroyed but merely damaged.

What comes to Karhila's proposed Mannerheim Cross, there's an interesting text on SA-kuva photograph N:o 159109: "luutnantti Kyösti Ensio Karhila, joka 20.7.1944 mennessä oli pudottanut 31 viholliskonetta. (Huom! Mannerheimristin ritari lähiaikoina!) Heinäkuu 1944."

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 22 Jul 2013 21:27

Yes...I had no idea Geust had that written down. I found a man who had seen this incident when he shot them down. I was able to talk about it with Kössi himself before he died in phone. He was deeply moved and happy that someone had seeen his actions. He requested no rehabilitation of his kills. But clearly the man on the hill had seen him in action.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 23 Jul 2013 19:38

281 Shad reported 2 Il-2 did not return from a mission at Lappeenranta and one aircraft was damaged got to the airport, but died of his wounds (all - from 448 Shap)

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 23 Jul 2013 19:52

olia wrote:281 Shad reported 2 Il-2 did not return from a mission at Lappeenranta and one aircraft was damaged got to the airport, but died of his wounds (all - from 448 Shap)
The book reports loss of 9 IL-2s of 281 ShAD around Viipuri on 2 July 1944.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 23 Jul 2013 20:21

what book?
In the raid on the Lappeenranta (not to Vyborg) participated 36 IL-2 of 281 Shad

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 23 Jul 2013 20:23

olia wrote:what book?
"Kyösti Karhila: Reservipilottien ykkösässä" (Apali, 2007). However, it does not provide any exact archival references, but merely refers to some research done by Geust at Russian archives.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 23 Jul 2013 22:26

I met 11 planes 281 Shad (448,703,872 Shaps) shot down in a raid on Lapenrantu 02/07/1941. Peharps according to the words of Finnish pilots
According to Books of losses of 281 Shad lost two crews 448 Shap who did not return from a mission and one mortally wounded. Books of losses of 872 and 703 Shap losses of personnel 02/07/1944 not recorded.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 24 Jul 2013 06:27

Okay then we have a wrong day.

Same day there was at least 7 other Il-2s claimed to have been shot down.

Kössi reportedly stopped keeping diary in spring 1944.

How about around week before July 2nd 1944 ?

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 24 Jul 2013 06:48

Mangrove wrote:
olia wrote:what book?
"Kyösti Karhila: Reservipilottien ykkösässä" (Apali, 2007). However, it does not provide any exact archival references, but merely refers to some research done by Geust at Russian archives.

The source is 13th Air-Army archives I asked Kari Stenman.

16 claimed kills only 10 affirmative with soviet archives.

This is 2nd July 1944.

I am trying to track the event this sergeant had seen on the ground..he remembered no date..but had definitely seen an Me-109 behind 6 Il-s and shot them one by one down. Kössi said it was his unconfirmed and it matches his book ( but he said he lined up for the sixth kill but run outa ammos and returned base )..but since he had no clear recollection of the event dates since he kept no diary, but he had claimed 3 propable on July 2nd 1944...there are other pilots with 5 plane claims on Il-2 as well.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 24 Jul 2013 07:13

What does the wrong day?

At the evening 2/07/1944 13 VA LenFr. made 2 raids:

Aerodrome Immalanyarvi - 44 Pe-2 276 BAD and 28 Il-2 277 Shad
aerodrome Lappeenranta - 16 Pe-2 276 BAD and 36 IL-2 281 Shad.
They were covered by fighters 275 IAD and the 2 Gu IAK PVO.
Last edited by olia on 24 Jul 2013 09:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 24 Jul 2013 07:49

olia wrote:What does the wrong day?

At the evening 2/07/1944 13 VA LenFr. made 2 raids:

Aerodrome Immalanyarvi - 44 Pe-2 276 BAD and 28 Il-2 277 Shad
aerodrome Lappeenranta - 16 Pe-2 270 BAD and 36 IL-2 281 Shad.
They were covered by fighters 275 IAD and the 2 Gu IAK PVO.

And only 2 was shot down in Lappeenranta ?

How many of the Immola raid planes unreturned ?

Those towns are only 50 km apart.

----

Kari Stenman proposed a mission were Illu Juutilainen with Antti Tani as wing man claimed 5 Il-2s week earlier. But the sergeant only saw one finnish AF Messerschmitt behind the IL-2s.

Kössi Karhila had sworn he won't take alcohol until he gets his Mannerheim cross...which he never got. He died in 2008. The interview with the war veteran sergeant took place in a hospital in Oulu ( OYKS ) where he was for surgery on his arteries in 1991. He has presumably also died long ago.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 24 Jul 2013 09:01

And only 2 was shot down in Lappeenranta

And how much do you need? The fighter shot down 6 attack planes in 5 minutes - it's like shooting in shooting range at a stationary target. And two regiments of fighters will be watching this, and after the raid all figters will go to trial?

52 dive-bombers and attack planes in 1944 usually were covered by two regiments of fighters (50-60 aircrafts). With this cover the loss of even 3 planes from the fighter aircraft (not flak fire) was considered large. If 281 Shad lost 6 (or 9 or as I read 11 aircrafts), the commanders of regiments and cover groups would go to trial, and the division commanders would have been removed from their positions.It would be a scandal to the whole Leningrad Front . Books of losses 281 Shad confirmed loss of three crews, but not 6 - 11.

Such losses were possible in 1941- August 1943 without adequate fighter escort.Since autumn 1943 norms of fighter escort of strike groups have become much tougher.In 1944 the biggest losses of attack planes Lenfr. and the Baltic Fleet were in Baltic Republics from flak fire.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 24 Jul 2013 09:46

How many of the Immola raid planes unreturned ?

If you mean Il-2 then 277 Shad reported 2.07.1944 a loss of one plane 15 Gu.Shap shot down by enemy fighters in a combat mission in the area Imalanyarvi

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by olia » 24 Jul 2013 09:55

The source is 13th Air-Army archives I asked Kari Stenman.

16 claimed kills only 10 affirmative with soviet archives


What 10 planes- attack , bombers, dive bombers, fighters -for all day 2.07 .1944 or only in a raid on Lappeenranta?

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