Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha Tompuri » 09 Nov 2013 19:21

Topspeed wrote:I really have no idea how far they saw..I say it is possible to see if the hill was 100 m above the surroundings...and they had binoculars.
AFAIK there is nothing that backs up neither ifs.
Topspeed wrote:If the shooting took 2 minutes and started while the planes were still coming at them then the distance cannot have been very long..going 400 km/h tops..maybe 350 more likely. It would have travelled only 12 km the whole convoy.
AFAIK Karhila engaged the IL-2's at Nuijamaanjärvi region and chased them up to Hovinmaa region. That is about 20km.
And where the planes possibly fell?
CF Geust wrote:Evening, Lappeenranta attack
281 ShAD, 448 ShAP:
lt V.A. Gusakov KIA, jefr S.F. Lavrishko KIA, Il-2 c/n 303812, shot down by A-A, crashed 2 km S Lappeenranta.
ml.lt V.V. Semyshkin KIA, jefr F.R. Iljnitskiy KIA, Il-2 c/n 10485, shot down in air combat, crashed 15 km S Lappeenranta.
ml.lt V.I. Lapshin DOW, ser F.A.Stolyarov WIA, Il-2 c/n 303178, shot down in air combat crashed S Viipuri.
ml.lt E.G. Sannikov OK, jefr F.K.Nemykin DOW, Il-2 c/n 9622, hits in air combat 6 km S Viipuri, belly landing near Tainionsuo.
ml.lt V.N. Suhorukov WIA, star N.H. Yeloyev OK, Il-2 c/n 3608, hits in air combat, forced landing at Maksalahti. Aircraft to depot (rembaza) for repairs.
lt M.D. Nikishin OK, V. Batizada OK, Il-2 made forced landing between front lines ("no man´s land") after hits in air combat. Note: Nikishin HSU 23.2.1945.

281 ShAD, 703 ShAP:
lt Sharov OK, Ivanov OK, Il-2 made belly landing after hits in air combat; to depot (rembaza) for repairs.

281 ShAD, 872 ShAP:
ml.lt V.V. Sokolov WIA, ml.ser I.S. Batrushin WIA, Il-2 c/n 304804, crash-landed near own base after hits in air combat at Kolkkala.
lt P.S. Glazkov WIA, ml.lt N.M. Lonchakov KIA, Il-2 c/n 10530, crash-landed SE Viipuri after hits in air combat.
Didn't the ones that fell at Carelian Isthmus have been a bit too far for the infantry sgt to confirm them being destroyed?
Wonder what was the location of the "eye witness sgt" during the combat?

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 19 Oct 2015 17:30

I found this. It says the battle took place over Juustila....Finland back then.

http://seura.fi/historia/sotahistoria/h ... jien-assa/

I cannot remember the place or name of the hill where this sergeant was standing on a look out with his group. In a very good position to see it naturally.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 20 Oct 2015 08:28

My firmly believe after having discussed with both of the soldiers ( sergeant who saw the incident and pilot himself ) that Kössi had 6 kills.

I base it on the fact that sergeant was so decisive in his view point and for the fact that Kössi had no time to observe what actually was about to happen.

Kössi had lined up for the kill but guns went silent as he pressed the trigger. It may as he was flying a 5 gun aeroplane ( 3 cannons and 2 machine guns ) bursted few rounds that fatally wounded the pilot...or vital fuel system or control, but he saw no immediate effect from his attempt.

I have a haunch that he was low on fuel too and pumped up with adrenalin that he immediately headed for home base.

There is also possibility that he had hit two planes while he was concentrating on firing on one plane. So the one he wasn't intentionally firing at all was also previously hit. This is a very low percentage possibility.

Third possibily is that the infantry sergeant did not see the 6th kill, but assumed that Kössi got also it as he was lining up for the 6th kill, but the planes were already so far that that he couldn't see it clearly.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 20 Oct 2015 10:54

Mangrove wrote:Karhila's original after action report (T 19284/122) tell us that Karhila engaged three of the six IL-2s flying at the the treetop level south of Lappeenranta and towards Tienhaara.
From the diary of the II/13. Kev.It.Ptri (SPK 16402) on 2 July 1944. The section was then located at Rautakorpi/Rääsiälä some kilometres away from Ykspää/Tienhaara.

"2 July 1944. [...] 8.20 - 8.21 p.m. Seven IL-2s flew over the section from the west to the east, while being pursued by own fighters (MT-109). Altitude 200-500 meters. The planes were fired upon. Two certain hits were scored on two of the planes and the other landing gear on the other plane came down. Ammunition spent: 193 grenades and 375 machine-gun rounds".
2.7.44. [...] Klo 20.20 - 20.21. 7 IL-2 jaoksen yli lännestä itään omien hävittäjien (MT-109) takaa ajamina. Lentokorkeus 200-500 m. Koneita tulitettiin. Varmoja osumia havaittiin kahteen koneeseen, josta toisesta retkahti toinen laskuteline alas. (ammuskulutus 193 kr. ja 375 kk:n patr.)

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Oct 2015 05:46

Juha wrote:
Topspeed wrote:There is only one incident where the witness said the pilot scored more planes thet he actually claimed. That was July 2nd 5 or 6 kills by Lieutenant Kyösti " Kössi " Karhila.

Witness on the ground said Kössi shot 6 IL-2s and Kössi himself claimed just 5.

Official records from Russia don't object the possibilty that Kössi actually shot 6.

Kössi was officially credited with...zero kills.
How you can be sure that the witness saw Kössi's fight and not e.g. that of Paavo Myllylä. After all Myllylä claimed one destroyed and three damaged Il-2s in his combat report when Kössi claimed only 3 damaged in his. FiAF accepted 10 Il-2s destroyed and 9 damaged (incl. Kössi's and Myllylä's) during the evening of 2 July by fighters and LW one Il-2 as destr.. During the whole day AA claimed 13 Il-2s.
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 6#p1973676

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha Tompuri » 21 Oct 2015 10:50

From http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 7#p1973726

/Juha T

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Topspeed wrote:
Juha wrote:
Topspeed wrote:There is only one incident where the witness said the pilot scored more planes thet he actually claimed. That was July 2nd 5 or 6 kills by Lieutenant Kyösti " Kössi " Karhila.

Witness on the ground said Kössi shot 6 IL-2s and Kössi himself claimed just 5.

Official records from Russia don't object the possibilty that Kössi actually shot 6.

Kössi was officially credited with...zero kills.
How you can be sure that the witness saw Kössi's fight and not e.g. that of Paavo Myllylä. After all Myllylä claimed one destroyed and three damaged Il-2s in his combat report when Kössi claimed only 3 damaged in his. FiAF accepted 10 Il-2s destroyed and 9 damaged (incl. Kössi's and Myllylä's) during the evening of 2 July by fighters and LW one Il-2 as destr.. During the whole day AA claimed 13 Il-2s.

Because Kössi in his memoirs tells to have shot 5 on one occasion.

I have no idea how his kills turned from 3 to 5 in his book ?

Where did the Paavo Myllyläs action take place ?

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha » 21 Oct 2015 13:29

Hello Topspeed
between Lappeenranta and the southern end of Kärstilänjärvi, as Kössi, he concentrated to shoot the planes not following what happened to them, but he specially mentioned that he hit the radiator of one Il-2 SE of Lappeenranta and saw the cooling fluid pouring out and that he saw his last victim, into which he had shot his remaining ammo, to fall at the southern end of Kärstilänjärvi "...jka putosi Kärstilänjärven eteläpäähän." No witnesses, so 3 damaged and one as destroyed into the regiment's account. On the other two he only mentioned that he saw "niistä lentävän kappaleita ja koneiden rupeavan savuamaan."

On Kössi's claims, in principle when the question is on one's actions the contemporary docus are more reliable than memoirs.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 21 Oct 2015 14:03

Problem is that the witness was also very old as he told me this 6 Il-2 vs Me-109 story.

He cannot have known whose plane it was.

Did Paavo fly with a plane that had 3 x 20 mm cannons ?

Where did Paavo live in Finland ?

Where was he from ?

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha » 21 Oct 2015 15:09

Hello Topspeed
Myllylä flew MT-458 during this combat according to his combat report, it was probably one of those "gunboats" Germany sold to Finland, but did it still have the gungondolas, I don't know.
He was born in Helsinki and lived here at least part of his working life.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 21 Oct 2015 15:49

I have actually been afraid that it could have been just anyone...even Halonen came to my mind.

Somehow I still think Kössi was the hungriest as he had not gained his Mannerheim cross yet and was pretty close.

Why did he not report in his log about the 5 kills, but mentioned just 3 probables ( was he so disappointed that no one was to see it ? ) ?

Why did Myllylä claim 1 certain but 3 probables ?

Actually if you get a change to spray ammo on 6 IL-2 swarm who aren't shooting back ( they had emptied their ammo on Lappeenranta )..how can you even miss and claim just 3 probables ?

After the sergeant told me the maneuvre the pilot used I tried it in IL-2 game and downed 4 of them..until my 109 was hit.

Who claimed kills on that day anyway ?

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha » 21 Oct 2015 16:23

Myllylä saw only one of the planes he shot at to crash, so it was the only one it was possible to get a confirmed kill.

"they had emptied their ammo on Lappeenranta" Are you sure on that? Even if there would have been a order demanding that, I doubt that all crews would have obeyed that.

At least Tappi Järvi, Koskelainen, Lampi, Ohls, Kirjonen, Mattila, Lehto, Salomies, Myllylä and Nuorala.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha Tompuri » 24 Oct 2015 18:24

Mangrove wrote:
Mangrove wrote:Karhila's original after action report (T 19284/122) tell us that Karhila engaged three of the six IL-2s flying at the the treetop level south of Lappeenranta and towards Tienhaara.
From the diary of the II/13. Kev.It.Ptri (SPK 16402) on 2 July 1944. The section was then located at Rautakorpi/Rääsiälä some kilometres away from Ykspää/Tienhaara.

"2 July 1944. [...] 8.20 - 8.21 p.m. Seven IL-2s flew over the section from the west to the east, while being pursued by own fighters (MT-109). Altitude 200-500 meters. The planes were fired upon. Two certain hits were scored on two of the planes and the other landing gear on the other plane came down. Ammunition spent: 193 grenades and 375 machine-gun rounds".
2.7.44. [...] Klo 20.20 - 20.21. 7 IL-2 jaoksen yli lännestä itään omien hävittäjien (MT-109) takaa ajamina. Lentokorkeus 200-500 m. Koneita tulitettiin. Varmoja osumia havaittiin kahteen koneeseen, josta toisesta retkahti toinen laskuteline alas. (ammuskulutus 193 kr. ja 375 kk:n patr.)
Thanks Mangrove.
That AA-report seems to contain several points that match quite well to the Karhila report:
Mangrove wrote:Karhila's original after action report (T 19284/122) tell us that Karhila engaged three of the six IL-2s flying at the the treetop level south of Lappeenranta and towards Tienhaara. The right landing gear on the first one came down, the second plane lost its right horisontal stabiliser and the third one was hit on the root of the left wing. After running out of ammunition, he disengaged the planes at Hovinmaa.
1. Pvm. 2.7.44 klo 19.50 - 20.
2. Taistelupaikka (-alue) ja korkeus: Lappeenranta-Tienhaara, 10 m.
3. Onko tuhottu vaiko vaurioitettu (konetyyppi ja lukumäärä): Vaurioitettu 3 IL-2:ta.
4. Tuhotun viholliskoneen putoamispaikka (-alue) tai selvitys siitä, missä kunnossa vaurioitettu kone nähty viimeksi ja missä: Kts. kertomusta alla!
5. Lyhyt kuvaus taistelun kulusta (tarpeen vaatiessa piirros kääntöpuolelle):

Suojauslennolle mennessämme sain radiolla käskyn tulla kentän päälle, missä ryssiä. E(n) saanut koneisiin kosketusta, olivat meidän yläpuolellamme. Samalla sain ????? jälleen kentälle nyt pintoihin(?). Siellä olikin IL:ä kovasti, pääsin 6:n koneen perään, tulitin niistä kolmea, yhdestä tuli oikea laskuteline ulos, toisesta meni oikeanpuoleinen korkeusperäsin hajalle ja kolmannesta läksi suuria kappaleita vasemman tason tyvestä. Panokseni loppuivat ja jouduin jättämään koneet Hovinmaan kohdalla.

6. Tapauksen todistajat (omat lausunnot jos mahdollista):
7. Huomautuksia (Taktillisia tai muita havaintoja, omat vauriot j.n.e.): Oma it (20 mm) tulitti minua kovasti kotiinpäin tullessani jossain Yksperän tienoilla saamatta osumaan, vaikka etäisyyttä oli vain 100 m!

Oma kone, tyyppi ja No: MT-461
Luut. Kyösti Karhila
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic. ... 0#p1809839

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 28 Oct 2015 09:20

Was it wing cannon Me-109 G-6 or rare G-10 ?

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 28 Oct 2015 19:45

Juha Tompuri wrote:That AA-report seems to contain several points that match quite well to the Karhila report
Likely about the same incident.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944

Post by Juha » 29 Oct 2015 02:37

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:That AA-report seems to contain several points that match quite well to the Karhila report
Likely about the same incident.

Regards, Juha
IMHO not necessarily, seven Il-2s flying east pursued by 109s vs lonely 109 flying NNW.

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