Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by tramonte » 29 Oct 2015 07:05

Topspeed wrote:I was trying to find out did Kössi do the world record when he downed 5 Il-2s in matter of minute ?

He claims in his book he shot down 5 outa 6 Il-2 that had been bombing Lappeenranta. There is also a infantry sergeant who saw a finnish Me-109 G shooting one after another 6 outa 6 Il-2s. Standing on a hill lookin as they flew past them ( his platoon ).

It is his unofficial kills and he was never credited the Mannerheim cross as the best reservist pilot as Eino Liuukkanen had wished as he made a proposition for it.

I wonder how come such an outstanding aviator was not credited and are his kills on this day 2.7.1944 verifyiable.

I know for fact soviets had revealed 10 Il-2s gone missing that day and finns had signed of 7 of them.
This is indeed interesting case. Normally we will face the reality of over claims of pilots of all air forces. It's almost certain that average over claim rate with any propagandist reasons was about 1:2 or 1:3 in daytime dog fighting (day fighters). As it has seen with many studies Luftwaffe NJG-units (night fighters) had much more realistic claims with reality.

But in case of Karhila and 2nd of July were likely have this exception - "under claim".

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_ ... tappioista

Or perhaps some other Finnish pilots have "stolen" his real victories. Here are claims of 24th Fighter Squadron:

July 2 1944 19.30–20.15 Lappeenranta......Ltn Erik Teromaa MT-241................ Pe-2
July 2 1944 19.30–20.45 Suomenvesi.........NCO Tapio Järvi MT-463.................Il-2
July 2 1944 19.30–20.45 Viipuri .............Sgt Arvo Koskelainen MT-456................ Il-2
July 2 1944 19.30–20.45 Valkjärvi...........2nd Ltn Heimo Lampi MT-464.......... Il-2

https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luettelo_ ... tappioista

Here are claims of 34th Fighter Squadron:

2 July 1944 6.15–7.20 Säiniö...............Ltn Ilmari Juutilainen MT-457................ Airacobra
2 July 1944 10.55–12.10 Viipurinlahti.......Sgn M. Durchman MT-416................ La-5
2 July 1944 20.00–20.40 Lappeenranta......2nd Ltn Mauno Kirjonen MT-402................ Il-2
2 July 1944 20.00–20.40 Suomenvesi........Ltn T. Mattila MT-425................ Il-2
2 July 1944 20.00–20.40 Suur-Merijoki......NCO U. Lehto MT-435................ Il-2
2 July 1944 20.05–20.30 Nuijamaanjärv.....Ltn H. Salomies MT-467................ Il-2
2 July 1944 20.05–20.40 Kärstilänjärvi......Ltn Paavo Myllylä MT-458................ Il-2
2 July 1944 20.05–20.55 Viipuri..............Ltn Urho Lehtovaara MT-448................ 3 x Pe-2
2 July 1944 20.05–20.55 Nuijamaanjärvi ja Ihantala.....NCO A. Nuorala MT-416................ Il-2 ja La-5

It also made we thinking why in that same day Squadron 34 had 3 times more claims than Squadron 24 which had normally 50-80% more claims.

And here are the claims of Kuhlmey unit for that same day:

02.07.44 Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54 Airacobra - 81 432: at 4.000 m. 10.44
02.07.44 Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54 Il-2 - 82 698: at 100 m. 20.32
02.07.44 Ltn. Heinz Wernicke 5./JG 54 Airacobra - 91 175: at 800 m. 06.51


Well as you see here there are total 10 claims of IL-2 shot down, 9 for Finns and 1 for 4./JG 54 (Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey). Personally i don't see this case making any exceptions. Memoirs have always huge problems. One should trust not much on them.

Something to think about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 03 Nov 2015 19:34

Juha wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:
Juha Tompuri wrote:That AA-report seems to contain several points that match quite well to the Karhila report
Likely about the same incident.
IMHO not necessarily, seven Il-2s flying east pursued by 109s vs lonely 109 flying NNW.
Single plane pilot report vs AAA unit report.
But seems that enough similarities that they well could be from the same incident.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 04 Nov 2015 18:13

Here's the original combat report by II/13. Kev.It.Ptri (T-7604/5). Essentially, it contains the same information as the war diary entry, but at the end there's a comment by the CO of the battalion:

"It has been confirmed that I/ and II/13.Kev.It.Ptri shot down a IL-2 at Lavola. Witnesses were luutnantti B. Fridfans, vääpeli G. Trelander, kersantti O. Buttenhoff and alikersantti M. Tresk from "7612/2 Kpk" (i.e. I/JR 13). They observed the shooting from the terrain around Tienhaara and confirmed that the plane was brought down by anti-aircraft fire. Artillery observers from Krh.K/JR 13 saw two planes going down to the terrain around Lavola around the time of the shooting. The other plane crashed into an alder forest near the shore. It seems the other plane was shot down by II/48. Kev. It. Ptri.

The CO of the Kev.It.Psto 16
Kapteeni P.J. Karvonen"
Taistelukertomus N:o 43/44
[...]
11. Klo 20.18 TH vartiomiehen suorittamana. Klo 20.19 yksikkö ampumavalmiina. Maalina 7 IL-2 jaoksen yli lännestä itään. Lentokorkeus 200-500 m. Tjueen toiminta: nop. 100 m/sek. et: 1400 m. Tuliyksikön toiminta: tuli avattiin klo 20.20 sulkuammuntana tuli-iskuin. Tulentähystys: Paria tuli-iskua lukuunottamatta tuli meni erittäin tarkasti.

12.Torjunnan tulos: Varmoja osumia havaittiin kahteen koneeseen, joista toisesta notkahti toinen laskuteline alas.
13. Kaluston toiminta hyvä.
14. A. kulutus 193 kpl 20 mm:n sirpalekr. (saks.), 475 kpl. 7,62 kk-patr.
15. Huomautuksia: Omat hävittäjät (MT-109) ajoivat koneita takaa tulittaen näitä. Oma 40 mm:n jaos sai osuman yhteen IL-2:een
[...]
Todettu, että I-II/13.Kev.It.Ptri pudottanut 1/IL-2 Lavolaan. Vahvistajat luutn. B. Fridfans, Vääp. G. Trelander, kers. O. Buttenhoff ja alikers. M. Tresk (7612/2 Kpk.), jotka olivat seuranneet ammuntaa Tienhaaran maastosta ja vahvistaneet pudotuksen it:n suorittamaksi. Krh.K/JR 13:n tulenjohtue nähnyt 2 konetta putoavan k.o. aikana Lavolan maastoon, toinen rantalepikköön. Toinen koneista ilmeisesti II/48. Kev. It. Ptrin alasampuma.

Kev.It.Psto 16:n komentaja
Kapteeni P.J. Karvonen

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Nov 2015 20:02

Thanks Mangrove,

Another light AAA unit about at the same area and another infantry sergeant witnessing the downing of enemy Il-2.

Do you know which 40mm Bofors section was mentioned at the combat report?
Oma 40 mm:n jaos sai osuman yhteen IL-2:een
Here the war diary of the combat report mentioned 48.Light AA Battery
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2828659

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 05 Nov 2015 20:26

Juha Tompuri wrote: Do you know which 40mm Bofors section was mentioned at the combat report?
I/13.Kev.It.Ptri was equipped with two 40 ItK/38B. The section was then situated at Rapattila. From I/13.Kev.It.Ptri's combat report, my comments inside the brackets:
Taistelukertomus N:o 44/44
[...]
11. Klo 20.25. TH vartiomiehen suorittama. Klo 20.25.20 [sic!] yksikkö tulivalmiina. Maalina 29 IL 2 ja 4 hävittäjää, jotka hyökkäsivät jaosta kohti tulittaen tykeillä ja kk:lla.
Tjueen toiminta: v=90 [m/s], E 50-200 [m], h=50-100 [m].
Tuliyksikön toiminta: Laskinammuntaa, tuliryöpyin[?].
Tulen tähystys: 1 IL 2 sai osuman ja putosi savuten maahan, itäiseen suuntaan n. 3000 m päähän. Lisäksi sai 1 hävittäjä osuman.

12. Torjunnan tulos. 1 IL 2 tuhottiin. Hävittäjän tuhoutuminen epävarmaa.
13. Kaluston toiminta: Ei huomauttamista.
14. 151 kpl 40 mm/It.sirp.kr.
15. Huomautukset:
16. Liitteet:

Yksikön päällikkö
Luutn. P. Järvelin

Laati
Vänr. A. Karlman
[...]
17. Esimiehen huomautukset:
Todettu, että I-II/13.Kev.It.Ptri pudottanut 1/IL-2 Lavolaan. Vahvistajat luutn. B. Fridfans, Vääp. G. Trelander, kers. O. Buttenhoff ja alikers. M. Tresk (7612/2 Kpk.), jotka olivat seuranneet ammuntaa Tienhaaran maastosta ja vahvistaneet pudotuksen it:n suorittamaksi. Krh.K/JR 13:n tulenjohtue nähnyt 2 konetta putoavan k.o. aikana Lavolan maastoon, toinen rantalepikköön. Toinen koneista ilmeisesti II/48. Kev. It. Ptrin alasampuma.

Kev.It.Psto 16:n komentaja
Kapteeni P.J. Karvonen

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Re: Kössi Karhilas alleged 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Juha Tompuri » 05 Nov 2015 20:52

Thanks Mangrove,

20 sec from alert to combat readiness is quite well, as you pointed out.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Mangrove » 11 Nov 2015 20:22

Karhila's flight from the logbook of the Hävittäjälentolaivue 24 (T 17919/1). The distance between Tienhaara and Taipalsaari is roughly 70 km. Using a figure of 450 km/h as a cruise speed for a Messerschmitt at sea level (see e.g. "Lentäjän näkökulma II"), Karhila would have left Tienhaara for home around 8.30 p.m. This corresponds well to the anti-aircraft combat reports.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Topspeed » 19 Jan 2016 09:54

I have to reveal one fact.

The old veterans are always described as madmen sweating and rolling on their bed with horrible nightmares.

What if this has happned to lt Karhila over the years too. His vision in the book about the downing of the planes is not perfectly in line with the sergeant vision on the hill.

Sergeant saw very professional execution of aerial maneuvers of a pilot doing frog-rolls to get into new firing position. Also he saw the pilot to shoot down all of them.

What if the nature of this incident made Karhila to smooth up the story a bit...well maybe the nature of the happening may also have made the sergeant to assume the sixth was also downed...go figure.

But it was the FROG-ROLL he remembered vividly ( this sergeant ) which was not mentioned in the book.

As I had read the book ( of Kössi ) I called Karhila there was witness for this...and I described how he saw it go ...he said yes this is how it went ( eventhough he does not mention a thing about the frog-rolls in his book ). He added, but he said his guns run outa ammo on the last one...claiming he did not get it ( the last one ).

I bet he did not stick around to see if it really went down or not.

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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by Swing » 21 Jan 2016 10:00

For reference: War diary of 281 ShAD dated 2.7.44. Own irretrievable losses: aicrafts – 5, pilots – 3, gunners – 4.
Aircraft 1 (448 ShAP) – AA-fire, aircraft 2 (not indicated) – enemy fighters, aircraft 3 (not indicated) damaged by AA-fire, shot down by fighter, aircraft 4 (872 ShAP) damaged by enemy fighter, force landed near Viipuri and destroyed.
Aircraft 5 (448 ShAP) force landed in Bobochino, aircraft 6 (448 ShAP) force landed in Makslahti. Both aircrafts were damaged by fighters and sent for repair.
Aircraft 7 (703ShAP) damaged by fighter, returned to base, force landed and sent to repair.
0208.jpg
Aircraft 8[/b] (872 ShAP) damaged by figter, returned to base, force landed and destroyed
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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by tramonte » 17 May 2018 16:16

There is Youtube-video ( here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUzDNNW3oKw ) where Karhila told how Finnish radio intelligence had captured Soviet message where Soviet officials told to have lost 9 Il-2 in "this area". The problem here's what Karhila really meant about "this area" -Lappeenranta or whole Karelian Isthmus. Karhila talked about it after 21 minutes (21:22 exactly...."Ryssältä tuli tieto että he ovat menettäneet tällä alueella 9 Il-2 konetta....".... "we got information from Russians that they have lost in this area 9 Il-2s)

BTW claim of Quarda and coordinates are suggesting the claim is just above the airfield of Immola. There seems to be no confirmed data of Il-2 lost in Immola area? However i have red articles about Il-2 shot down near Immola but these stories might be messed up with Il-2 shot down in Lappeenranta-Ihantala area were most of action happened.

Now after these official Soviet reports i'm even more suspicious of Karhila's claim of 5 Il-2s. Down on the bottom line Finnish pilots had total 15 Il-2-claims at that evening + one from II./JG54. Only 8 (by aircraft) - are confirmed by Soviet documents. Besides there was one La-5 claim by sn.sgt Nuorala. It seems to be this is classic 1:2 truth vs claims case.
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Re: Kössi Karhilas 5 Il-2 victories on July 2nd 1944 !

Post by tramonte » 18 May 2018 09:00

CF Geust wrote:As I have been repeatedly referred to in this thread, I would like to present a summary of my research in TsAMO, Podolsk. Main document series checked by me include daily war diaries, operational reports and loss lists (Zh.B.D., opersvodki and Spiski poter) on Air Army, Aviation Division and Aviation Regiment levels. Lists of ultimately written off aircraft are however only occasionally checked.

Losses of 13th Air Army on 2 July 1944:

Morning:
275 IAD, 191 IAP:
ml.lt A.S. Shiyanov, KIA La-5 c/n 2305 shot down in air combat with 2 BF109s 1.5 km NW Perojoki.
ml.lt Mitrohin, apparently OK La-5 damaged in air combat with 2 BF109s at Viipuri.

275 IAD, IAP unknown (159 or 191 IAP):
lt Pikin returned to his unit (escaped by parachute?), La-5 went missing (unclear case).

275 IAD, 196 IAP:
kapt S.N. Makashev KIA, P-39 Nr. 20490 shot down in air combat at Pietilä.
Focusing more what happened during 2 July morning (or was it forenoon?). There's just one claim of La-5: sergeant Durchman of FAF 34th Fighter Squadron, at 10.55–12.10 in Bay of Vyborg. It's obvious he shot down some of those La'5s.

Airacobra Nr. 20490 is even bigger puzzle. There are three claims:

1) at 6.15–7.20 in Säiniö by Ltn Ilmari Juutilainen (Säiniö is some 8 km SE from Vyborg and 20 km SE from Pietilä)
2) at 06.51, coordinate 91 175 (suggesting 25 km east from village of Pietilä) height 800 m by Ltn. Heinz Wernicke of 5./JG 54.
3) at 10.44, coordinate 81 432 (some 15-20 km SE from Pietilä) at 4.000 m by Uffz. Josef Quarda of 4./JG 54 Airacobra .
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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