Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

[lemke_w_w_s_d_m]

1) Was Airacobra loss (196 IAP) in 2 July early morning (6-8 a.m) or little bit later?

2) Two Il-2 losses of 277 ShAD, 3 July, early morning (6-8 a.m) or later?

3) Kittyhawk(191 IAP) loss time, 3 July?

1) P-39 Makashov did not return from departure during the period from 7.30 to 8.20 departure group 8 P-39 196 IAP.
2) not known
3) Alas, I could not find data on the time of departure.

I did not seriously study the actions of the 13th VA units after July 20. I got the impression that the 275th IAD in the last ten days of July suffered the main (or all) losses in the Narva direction.

[lemke_w_w_s_d_m]

Dear

tramonte

very sorry that you deleted such interesting posts. I didn't have time to really look at them, due to lack of time
Based on that information of yours, I can add what became known to me not long ago:

20.07.44
A Me-109 patrol (apparently 2 fighters) from HleLv 30 met 2 Boston and 2 La-5s and engaged them in combat, the Finns claimed 1 La-5 was shot down, but were suddenly attacked by another pair of the enemy. Both Me-109, MT-407 and MT-484 were shot down, one pilot was killed, the other jumped out with a parachute.
The Finnish fighters actually did not meet with the Lavochkin, but with the Yaks from the 21st IAP of the Baltic Fleet Air Force. The four Yak-9 regiment accompanied two A-20-j 51st MTAPs to cruise to the western part of the Gulf of Finland. Our pilots also did not correctly identify the enemy, identifying a pair of enemy fighters as FW-190. Both opponents were shot down, the pilots Lieutenants Brishko and Strugalin achieved victory. The pilots of the 21st IAP did not suffer losses.

[tramonte]

One question about 3 July 44 and Yak-9 losses (3). Were 2 of them lost in early morning (6-8 a.m Helsinki time = 7-9 a.m Mosvow/Leningrad)?

[tramonte]

Dear

tramonte

very sorry that you deleted such interesting posts. I didn't have time to really look at them, due to lack of time
Based on that information of yours, I can add what became known to me not long ago:

20.07.44
A Me-109 patrol (apparently 2 fighters) from HleLv 30 met 2 Boston and 2 La-5s and engaged them in combat, the Finns claimed 1 La-5 was shot down, but were suddenly attacked by another pair of the enemy. Both Me-109, MT-407 and MT-484 were shot down, one pilot was killed, the other jumped out with a parachute.
The Finnish fighters actually did not meet with the Lavochkin, but with the Yaks from the 21st IAP of the Baltic Fleet Air Force. The four Yak-9 regiment accompanied two A-20-j 51st MTAPs to cruise to the western part of the Gulf of Finland. Our pilots also did not correctly identify the enemy, identifying a pair of enemy fighters as FV-190. Both opponents were shot down, the pilots Lieutenants Brishko and Strugalin achieved victory. The pilots of the 21st IAP did not suffer losses.

It was not my decision.

List of FiAF HävLeLv 30 claims are one of those open questions to me also. They likely had just little bit over 30 during 22 June 41 - 5 Sept 44.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=261578

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Part of the post deleted.
That part can be found at the link (Finnish fighter losses and damages 110744-300744) above.
I already earlier moved that same off-topic content to that thread of its own.
No need to re-post it here again,

/Juha

[Juha Tompuri]

It was not my decision.

List of FiAF HävLeLv 30 claims are one of those open questions to me also. They likely had just little bit over 30 during 22 June 41 - 5 Sept 44.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=261578

Hi!

Very sorry that I accidently managed to lost majority of your post today, that I moved to a proper thread.
Please post the info there again, if possible.

Regards, Juha

[tramonte]

FiAF bomber losses (lost, damaged and force/belly landings) can be found here.

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=261556#p2382151

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Part of the post deleted.
That part can be found at the link above.
I already earlier moved that same off-topic content to that thread of its own.
No need to re-post it here again,

/Juha

[tramonte]

Combat losses for 13 VA, PVO and VVS KBF seems to have been 68-70 during first 17 days of July 44 in Karelian Istmus and Bay of Vyborg and 15-16 caused by AA and 52-55 in air combat. It looks like FiAF scored 35-38 (122 claims) while II./JG54 with only 32 claims scored some 15-17 air victories.

"Too close to call" are e.g those claims between Thyben and Katajainen (1 July, Airacobra) and Wernicke and Juutilainen (Airacobra, morning 2 July) and who shot down those 2 Il-2 of 277 ShAD in 3 July. Rudorffer and Tangerman claimed 6 Il-2 and 1 Pe-2 but real score might have been only 1 (or 2) Il-2. The gap between claims of FiAF and real Soviet losses in 15 July was also wide: 12 claims - 1 Soviet loss (AA).

The period 18 July - 25 July might give similar poor result (compared to 12 claims in Karelian Isthmus)

[tramonte]

I did not seriously study the actions of the 13th VA units after July 20. I got the impression that the 275th IAD in the last ten days of July suffered the main (or all) losses in the Narva direction.

I have similar impression. It might be 275 IAD and 283 IAP lost not a single fighter (or any) aircraft in combat against Finns during period of 18 - 25 July 44. VVS KBF might have lost one ot two 25 July - 5 August against FiAF. Or none.

[tramonte]

15.07.44: 1 Yak-9 (14 GIAP) shot down by AA, pilot Neporada KIA, Myanike alue? Болото-Суо? - claim time is the same Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54

I think Quarda didn't have accepted claim in 15 July 44. He did have 11 July: Yak-9 91 274: at 1.500 m. time 13.30.

[tramonte]

It makes me suspicious whether all 6 Airacobras in 28 June were shot down in air combat. There were no 4.&5./JG54 claims of Airacobras and FiAF had "only" six. Quite contrast when FiAF had 12 Yak-9 claims and 4.&5./JG54 had 3 while only 4 were shot down in air combat. 196 IAP reported to have lost 3 Airacobras shot down by AA after 19 June and only possible days are 20 June and 28 June.

[lemke_w_w_s_d_m]

According to my calculations, it turned out from 1 to 20 July 1944 in Karelian Istmus and Bay of Vyborg 13 VA, PVO and VVS KBF lost for combat reasons - 64 aircraft. 49 of them were in air battles, 1 was missing, 14 - AA.
13 VA - 47 aircraft
2nd GIAC PVO - 3 aircraft (including 1 Yak-9 missing on July 11 - presumably from the 2nd GIAC PVO) hull losses are not fully known to me.
VVS KBF - 13 aircrafts
IL-4 - 1 plane

[lemke_w_w_s_d_m]

It makes me suspicious whether all 6 Airacobras in 28 June were shot down in air combat. There were no 4.&5./JG54 claims of Airacobras and FiAF had "only" six. Quite contrast when FiAF had 12 Yak-9 claims and 4.&5./JG54 had 3 while only 4 were shot down in air combat. 196 IAP reported to have lost 3 Airacobras shot down by AA after 19 June and only possible days are 20 June and 28 June.

According to the combat diary of the 196 IAP, all 5 P-39s were shot down on 28 June in air battles. Of these five cases, only in one did the pilot jump out with a parachute. In four cases, the planes were crashed during forced landings. Perhaps this is partly due to the lack of claims from the enemy. So the fighters of the Germans (Finns) were unable to trace the fall of the aircraft. The damaged Airacobras went far and crashed out of sight of the enemy.
I previously calculated that out of 6 Aerocobras lost on July 28 (including 1 P-39 from the 2nd GIAK Air Defense) - 4 were shot down by the Finnish Me-109, and 2 were shot down by 4., 5. / JG54.

The departure time of the 196 IAP is known:
During the departure period from 12.15 to 13.10 8 P-39 196 IAP fought in the area of ​​st. Tali with 14 FV-190. Losses in this battle amounted to 2 P-39s, junior lieutenants Glagolev sat down on an emergency, Mandrykin escaped by parachute. Finnish claims for the P-39 are not suitable for the timing.

The third air battle of the 196th IAP took place during the flight from 15.00 to 15.46, a group of 8 P-39 regiments conducted an engagement with a group of 12 Me-109 and FV-190. The losses amounted to 2 "Aircobras": Major Parfenov and Jr. Gavrilov were hit and crashed their planes on forced landings. Shot down by pilots HleLv 24 and Olli Puhakka HleLv 34.

During the departure period from 17.35 to 18.35 a group of 6 "Cobras" regiment were suddenly attacked by 4 Me-109s from an excess of up to 1000 meters. The plane of junior lieutenant Melanich was damaged, but he landed safely at his airfield, but Captain Podorosky was less fortunate, he crashed the plane on an emergency landing. Most likely, Podorosky was shot down by the Finnish Me-109s, Yuutilainen's application is close:
15.00–16.10 Tammisuo Ltm Ilmari Juutilainen MT-459 Mustang

[tramonte]

So we can't trust too much on June monthly report of neither 275 IAD nor 2 GIAK when its question about how fighters were lost. As i have mentioned before 2 GIAK reported 27 fighter losses in June, 5 by AA and all those AA cases were Yaks (26 GIAP one, 27 GIAP three and 404 IAP one). Anyway it was interesting how 275 IAD June montly report mentioned biggest reason for relatively high losses of 196 IAP: low flying Il-2 escorting operations and also that AA caused many of those losses. Perhaps "political correctness" in all air forces (including FiAF too) played certain role how many fighter losses were easier to explain caused by enemy AA instead of admitting those fighters were shot down by enemy pilots.

I tracked Baltic Fleet Chronicle Vol 7 to find evidence did VVS KBF lost any aircraft during late stage air combat against FiAF in 22 July ( when Puro claimed Il-2 and La-5 in Narvi-Seiskari) - there was none - 25 July when FiAF claimed 4 Il-2, 3 La-5, 1 Yak-9 and 1 AC but there was no evidence of losses against FiAF in Someri-Ulkotammio according Chronicle only1 Il-2 was lost - in Maisaari, near Turku! In 5 August FiAF's Luukkanen and Mattila claimed 2 Yak-7 in Narvi (time 12.45-13.55 Helsinki time). Now there were indeed some evidence of losses but the reason for those losses accordning Chronicle were - AA.

"From 4 h. 40 m. to 15 h. 30 m. two Il-2 (7 gv. pshakp), six Il-2 (35 shakp), four IL-2 (29 ploae), 25 Il-2 (47 shap), 12 IL-2 (8 gv. shap) under the cover of six Yak-1 (12 nakp), 12 LAGG-3 (9 nap), six LAGG-3 (11 nap) flew to search and destroy enemy submarines in the Gulf of Finland. At 5.50 a.m., the submarine was found 2 miles northwest of the island of Nerva, after the attack by our planes, the boat sank. (Case 6622, l. 85; arch. 12184, l. 23; arch. 19105, l. 198 -201.) From 4 h. 23 m. to 18 h. 10 m. four Yak-9 (13 nakp), two Yak-9 (15 orakp) and two LAGG-3 (11 nap) flew to scout enemy ships in the Gulf of Finland. Two Yak-9 (15 orakp) during the exploration of the port of Kotka were hit by enemy anti-aircraft fire and sank while landing on the AFD; one pilot was picked up by our patrol boats in the Gulf of Vyborg. (Arch. 19105, l. 198- 203; arch. 11856, l. 13.)"

There was one name in loss list perhaps linked with those 2 lost Yaks: ltn Gabriel Nizhnik, MIA 5 August 1944, place Cape Ino-Niemi. Unit: кбф ввс 15 раки 45 АЭ

[tramonte]

Juutilainen and 4 other Bf-109 pilots came back from combat mission at 16.10 a clock (17.10 Leningrad time) but 8 other Bf-109 fly to protection mission Juustila-Tali at 16.25-17.25 (17.25-18.25 Leningrad time). This latter flight had 2 La-5 and 1 LaGG-3 claims (later that LaGG-3 claim was moderated to La-5).

FiAF combat missions in 28 June 44:

07.50-8.20: 2 Bf-109 (HävLeLv 30), intercept mission Söderskär- Tytärsaari (Tyters, Gulf of Finland)
14.35-15.00: 2 Bf-109 (HävLeLv 30), intercept mission Söderskär
09.05-10.15: 11 Bf-109 intercept mission Tali : FiAF lost one Bf-109, Keskinummi (MT-437)shot down in air combat
09.25-10.30: 3 Bf-109 intercept mission Tali-Vyborg
10.20-11.35: 8 Bf-109 escorting bombers to Tali (3 Dornier, 1 DB, 1 DF)
10.30-11.00: 2 Bf-109 reckon mission eastern coast of Bay of Vyborg (pilot Hans Wind wounded during this mission)
10.45-11.30: 2 Bf-109 reckon mission Pölläkkälä-Valkjärvi-Kiviniemi
11.15-12.15: 7 Bf-109 intercept mission Tali (MT-438 got hit in air combat to cooling system, aircraft damaged, emergency landing to west of Juustila)
13.00-13.40: 2 Bf-109 reckon mission Koivisto-Lihaniemi-Uuras
13.40-15.00: 8 Bf-109 intercept mission Tali
14.10-15.10 10 Bf-109 intercept mission Tali
15.00-16.10: 5 Bf-109 reckon mission Säiniö-Vammelsuu (orginal report: mission time 15.10-16.10 Juutilainen claimed 1 "Mustang")
16.25-17.25: 8 Bf-109 protection mission Juustila-Tali
19.55-21.05: 3 Bf-109 intercept mission Tali
21.25-22.10: 8 Bf-109 escorting bombers to Tali (11 Ju-88 bombers)
20.25-20.50: 3 Brewster intercept mission to Hiitola-Konevitsa

From report mentioned excluding those in claim lists:

09.25-10.30: 3 Bf-109 shooting couple of Airacobras in Tali without result
10.25-11.35: 8 Bf-109 shooting 4-5 Il-2s without results

In same battle of 5 Bf-109 and several Soviet fighters (south from Jäppilä) where Juutilainen claimed "Mustang" FiAF claimed also one U-2. Mentioned: 1 "Mustang", 1 U-2 shot down and 1 La-5 damaged.

II./JG54: 10 different missions with 52 Fw-190s (on average 5 Fw-190 per mission) from 6.00 a.m to 6.00 p.m. From 6.00 p.m to 6.00 a.m (29 June) 2 intercept/escort missions with total 10 Fw-190.

[tramonte]

The thread title changed to better match the content

/Juha

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According to my calculations, it turned out from 1 to 20 July 1944 in Karelian Istmus and Bay of Vyborg 13 VA, PVO and VVS KBF lost for combat reasons - 64 aircraft. 49 of them were in air battles, 1 was missing, 14 - AA.
13 VA - 47 aircraft
2nd GIAC PVO - 3 aircraft (including 1 Yak-9 missing on July 11 - presumably from the 2nd GIAC PVO) hull losses are not fully known to me.
VVS KBF - 13 aircrafts
IL-4 - 1 plane

I have added emergency landing cases to have that 68-70 number. Combat lost destroyed Soviet aircraft number was likely that of yours 64. The missing PVO Yak-9 in July 11 is interesting case. Josef Guarda claimed on that day coordinates 91 274: at 1.500 m. time 13.30. Location of claim near Vuosalmi-Äyräpää. Saarinen and Koskinen (HävLeLv 24) claimed also Yak-9 little bit earlier (11.05–12.25) in Vuosalmi-Äyräpää. My intuition has been earlier that PVO didn't take part on combat in Karelian Isthmus after first few days of July. 2 GIAK's table of losses of July 44 are showing these results:

26 GIAP: 1 Yak-9 shot down in air combat (pilot lost, they lost it 3 July 44, Ivan Paladiu?)
27 GIAP: 1 Yak-9 did not return from combat mission (2 pilots lost, two cases mentioned: 26 July jr ltn Nikolai Soloviev MIA, 19 July Aleksei Belous did not return from combat mission, Belous MIA)
400 IAP: 1 La-5 shot down by AA (no pilot loss, can't find it linked to Karelian Isthmus?)
404 IAP: 2 Yak-9 did not return from combat mission (pilots lost, jr ltn Kolotilin 1 July, jr ltn Kachanov shot down in air combat 26 July )

Catastrophes:
Управ корп. (HQ?) Yak-7 (pilot lost)
27 GIAP: 1 Yak-7 (pilot lost, either Soloviev or Belous case been not combat loss but catastrophe)
102 GIAP: 2 Airacobra (pilots lost, Nikolai Boborykin 1 July KIA, Nikolai Borovkov died in training flight)
401 IAP: 1 La-5 (pilot lost, Leonid Bogdan-Kurilo 1 July)
403 IAP: 1 Airacobra (pilot lost, Pjotr Taran 31 July KIA)

Accidents:
27 GIAP: 1 Yak-7
102 GIAP: 1 U-2
400 IAP: 3 La-5
403 IAP: 1 Airacobra
- no pilot losses on accidents