Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

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Mangrove
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Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by Mangrove » 15 Mar 2020 11:25

For more detailed breakdown of the Finnish anti-aircraft artillery claims from June and July 1944, please consult following anti-aircraft regiment downed and damaged claim tables:

Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (Aun.R & IV AK | June 1944)
Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (IV AK | July 1944)

Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (III AK | June 1944)
Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 15 (III AK | July 1944)

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tramonte
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Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 06 Sep 2020 12:59

durb wrote:
19 Jul 2015 18:07
Soviet daily combat reports of the fighter units at the Finnish front (by 9.6.1944) confirm that they lost at least 34 La-5 fighters in air combat or shot down by enemy AA during the 9.6.- 17.7.1944 over Karelian Isthmus, so their accumulated losses of La-5´s must have been higher than just 30 at the Finnish front during 1943-1944. The damage and accident losses were at the same period at the same front recorded as 28 La-5 according by Soviet records. (Raunio:"Lavothskin La 5 Suomen rintamalla" - Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti 2/2014, p. 11-12)

Soviet fighter regiments equipped with La-5 at Finnish front on 9.6.1944 were: 159, 191, 195, 400, 401, 415, 450, 706 IAP and 3,4,10, 11 GIAP. The total losses of these units were as high as 470 during the years 1943-1944 (including combat losses, accidents and all other causes). The portion of Finnish front of these losses would be around 150-160 according to Jukka Raunio (cited article above). If the amount of accidents and othern non-combat losses of total losses would be about 50 % as it is in the case of Finnish aircraft losses, this makes the number of combat losses of the above listed La-5 equipped Soviet air units at Finnish front in the years 1943-1944 being somewhere around 80. Compared to Finnish claims against La-5´s (215 in total, of which 200 credited to Finnish fighters) that would make the possible oveclaim ratio being somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1.

I combed the data of FAF claims of La-5 during 1943-44 having claims of units here....

24th fighter squadron..............114
34th fighter squadron............... 58
26th fighter squadron.................4
28th fighter squadron................ 5
32th fighter squadron...............14
------------------------------
FAF claims ..........................195

Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey..........12 ( from 17 June to 17 July 44 in Karelian Isthmus)

AA-units known having 11 La-5 claims during period of 9 - 30 June 1944. No idea how many AA claims before June 44 and July-August 44. Perhaps some 10?

Of these 207 claims of pilots and 11-21 claims of AA units more than half during period from 9 June to 17 July 1944. Finns and Germans had total 104 claims just in Karelian Isthmus + FAF units in Karelia 8 (June-August 44). Total 112. With claims of AA units total about around 130 La-5s.

When comparing La-5 likely losses before 9 June 44 (and after 17 June 44), according Soviet sources studied by Rautio, we can estimate combat losses been around ~45 La-5s while Finnish pilots had claims of 95 La-5. So the over claiming would have been around 1:2, while during period of 9 June - 17 July 44 almost 1:4. And there is indeed clear logic on it. When air battles were smaller with few aircraft taking part on it pilots normally over claimed less.

When it comes to fighter vs fighter air battles in summer of 1944 we instead than estimating 1:2 or 1:3 over claim should focus chance of Finnish (and German) fighter pilots having as high as even 1:4 over claim process going on. And of course: if Soviet official records are by any means reliable.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by Mangrove » 06 Sep 2020 19:01

tramonte wrote:
06 Sep 2020 12:59
AA-units known having 11 La-5 claims during period of 9 - 30 June 1944. No idea how many AA claims before June 44 and July-August 44. Perhaps some 10?
Here all accepted La-5 victory claims by the Finnish anti-aircraft artillery from 24 June 1941 to 7 September 1944 according to a Finnish Air Force document dated 9 November 1944.

1) 17 May 1944. 5. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (5.RIt.K).
2) 12 June 1944. 69. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (69.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Suulajärvi airbase.
3) 13 June 1944. 11. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed near Liikola.
4) 15 June 1944. Panssari-ilmatorjuntapatteri (Ps.It.Ptri). Wreck was found 0.5 kilometres south of the firing position at Liikoila.
5) 20 June 1944. 40. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (40.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Syväri / Svir.
6) 22 June 1944. 34. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (34.Kev.It.Ptri). Shot down near Mäkriä-Uukujärvi road.
7) 22 June 1944. I/6. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (I/6.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
8) 22 June 1944. 11. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
9) 23 June 1944. 33. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (33.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed south of Mäkriä.
10) 25 June 1944. 11. Kevyt rannikkoilmatorjuntapatteri (11.Kev.RIt.Ptri).
11) 26 June 1944. 2. Rautatieilmatorjuntakonekiväärikomppania (2.Raut.It.KKK). Engaged near Vitele, later reported to have been crashed.
12) 27 June 1944. 9. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (9.RIt.K).

13) 11 July 1944. 7. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (7.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed behind Finnish lines 4 kilometres SW from the firing position near Vuosalmi/Äyräpää.
14) 11 July 1944. 31. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (31.Kev.It.Ptri). Plane crashed behind Soviet lines near Koirinoja.
15) 12 July 1944. 33. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (33.Kev.It.Ptri).
16) 13 July 1944. 34. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (34.Kev.It.Ptri).
17) 29 July 1944. 38. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (38.Kev.It.Ptri).
18) 30 July 1944. Kotkan ilmatorjunta / Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 2 (It.R.2). Crashed to the sea near Lavansaari.

19) 1 August 1944. 38. Kevyt ilmatorjuntapatteri (38.Kev.It.Ptri). Crashed to the Soviet side while on fire.
20) 4 August 1944. Kotkan ilmatorjunta / Ilmatorjuntarykmentti 2 (It.R.2). Fell to the sea c. 3 kilometres SW of Suur-Mustasaari.
21) 25 August 1944. II/11. Rannikkoilmatorjuntakomppania (II/11.RIt.K). Fell to the lake north of Valamo/Ristisaari.

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Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by mars » 06 Sep 2020 19:16

tramonte wrote:
06 Sep 2020 12:59

When it comes to fighter vs fighter air battles in summer of 1944 we instead than estimating 1:2 or 1:3 over claim should focus chance of Finnish (and German) fighter pilots having as high as even 1:4 over claim process going on. And of course: if Soviet official records are by any means reliable.
I guess it depends on how original of these source were, I would always trust reports of their own losses submitted by units (not that much about combat claims), they have no motive to lie since they had to let their superior know the status of every single one of the air planes under their command

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Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by Juha Tompuri » 07 Sep 2020 20:25

mars wrote:
06 Sep 2020 19:16
I guess it depends on how original of these source were, I would always trust reports of their own losses submitted by units (not that much about combat claims), they have no motive to lie since they had to let their superior know the status of every single one of the air planes under their command
John Hilly wrote:
28 Jan 2015 18:17
If I have understood correctly, if a damaged plane crash landed on some Soviet air field and was a total write off, the Soviets didn't count the plane lost in combat. Maybe this explains some differents between Finnish vs. Soviet statistics?

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tramonte
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Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 08 Sep 2020 12:19

Juha Tompuri wrote:
07 Sep 2020 20:25
mars wrote:
06 Sep 2020 19:16
I guess it depends on how original of these source were, I would always trust reports of their own losses submitted by units (not that much about combat claims), they have no motive to lie since they had to let their superior know the status of every single one of the air planes under their command
John Hilly wrote:
28 Jan 2015 18:17
If I have understood correctly, if a damaged plane crash landed on some Soviet air field and was a total write off, the Soviets didn't count the plane lost in combat. Maybe this explains some differents between Finnish vs. Soviet statistics?
These cases where aircraft crash landed on some Soviet air field and was total written off while not counted as combat lost aircraft are of course existing but i doubt could these cases change the big picture much at all. If we add +5% then we must remember to subtract even more cases where aircraft was lost in combat without being shot down by enemy pilots or AA units.

When it comes to losses of 13th Air Army of VVS in Karelian Isthmus it had report of lost 160 aircraft in June 1944. 13th Air Army had total ~13 300 sorties during period 9 June - 30 June. So the loss rate of it was on average 1.2% of sorties. During the whole year 1944 VVS was reported to have had 817 064 sorties with combat losses of 7 861 aircraft, loss rate 0.96%. 13th Air Army of course had on average likely little bit more intensive and fiece air battles during June 44 and likely without so called night harassment aircraft sorties (with very low loss rate). So in fact combat loss rate of 13th Air Army was well balanced with average VVS day time combat losses in Eastern Front during 1944.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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