Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 1944

Discussions on the Winter War and Continuation War, the wars between Finland and the USSR.
Hosted by Juha Tompuri
User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 10 Dec 2021 10:23

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
09 Dec 2021 21:17

28.06.44: 4 Yak-9 (29 GIAP) shot down in air combat (Zobnin, Ershov and Kavun KIA. Kochurov MIA). I assumed that the Finnish fighters had 2 shot down Yak-9s, and the Germans from II./JG 54 had two Yak-9s.
(28.06.44: 2 Yak-9 (14 GIAP) collision (sgnt. Sergei Gordeev, jr ltn.Aleksei Klepikov KIA))
28.06.44: 2 La-5 (159 IAP) shot down in air combat (pilot Grečka and Vasiliev of 159 IAP, KIA) 13 VA report claimed 3 La-5 losses! I counted 1 La-5 for the Finns and 1 La-5 for the Germans.
28.06.44: 5 Airacobra (196 IAP) all shot down in air combat, junior l-that Mandrykin (shot down in June for the second time) was shot down in combat, the pilot escaped by parachute. pilots: Jr. Glagolev, Major Parfenov, Captain Podorosky (shot down in June for the second time), Jr. Gavrilov, all the planes were destroyed, and the pilots escaped and returned to the unit. Presumably, two of the P-39s were shot down by the Germans, and 3 P-39s were shot down by the Finns, including one shot down by Olli Puhakka.
In 28 June: 29 GIAP mentioned (in table of 275 IAD) to have lost 5 Yak-9 in combat. 13 VA reported also 5 Yak-9 combat losses (2 GIAK had not Yak losses).

When it comes to Airacobra losses of 196 IAP (5 confirmed also in table of losses of 275 IAD) II./54 pilots had no Airacobra claims according Tony Wood's Luftwaffe claim lists.
28.06.44 Ltn. Heinz Wernicke 5./JG 54 Yak-9 91 315: at 3.000 m. 09.25
28.06.44 Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54 Yak-9 91 243: at 4.000 m. 09.40
28.06.44 Ltn. Albert Seevers 4./JG 54 Yak-9 81 425: at 3.000 m. 18.19
28.06.44 Ltn. Heinz Wernicke 5./JG 54 La-5 81 437: at 4.000 m. 20.45
28.06.44 Uffz. Herbert Koller 5./JG 54 La-5 91 172: at 4.000 m. 20.50

Sure, air victories without claims are possibly, however claims without true "killings" were far far more often the reality.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 10 Dec 2021 11:01

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
09 Dec 2021 21:17
Revised 275 IAD losses:


30.06.44: 1 Yak-9 (14 GIAP) jr ltn Sukhorukov MIA, detached from his group, the German and Finnish fighters have no corresponding claims.
30.06.44 1 Yak-9 (14 GIAP) Jr.l-t Sboev shot down in air combat, escaped by parachute.
30.06.44. 1 La-5 (191 IAP) shot down in air combat, pilot jr ltn Berezin, Sergey KIA. on that day 2 La-5s were shot down, one on account of the Finns, the other on account of the Germans. Which one it was not possible to establish.
275 IAD table based on reports of units 14 GIAP, 29 GIAP, 159 IAP, 191 IAP and 196 IAP mentioned losses caused by AA:

14 GIAP: 1 Yak-9 by AA (either 20.6, 28.6 or 30.6)
29 GIAP: none
159 IAP: 1 La-5 (15.6.44)
191 IAP: none
196 IAP: 4 Airacobra (one 18.6, none 19.6 and 3 others during period of 20 June to 30 June)

Did not return cases (3) on table were all Yak regiments: 14 GIAP one, 29 GIAP two. There is also chance that some of these may have been caused by AA or were accidents.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 10 Dec 2021 16:29

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
09 Dec 2021 21:17
Revised 275 IAD losses:

19.06.44: Perhaps the 275th IAD lost 1 Yak-9 that day, there is not enough information. According to the 13th VA, 2 Yak-9 did not return that day. one of the 27 GIAP 2 GIAC PVO, the other is not known from which part.
According C.F Geust: " three Yak-9s damaged (14 and 29 GIAP) of 275 IAD"

viewtopic.php?t=234377

He did not mention anything hinting to "did not return". So likely one of those damaged Yak-9s was crashed on landing and just written off rather soon? 275 IAD table of losses confirmed losses of 7 Airacobra and one La-5. When it comes to "did not return" it should mean pilot loss too (if not then returning to unit later). However there was no pilot losses for both 14 and 29 GIAP on 19 June 44. Only pilot losses for 275 IAD marked as Vershinin (159 IAP, La-5) and Vasili Arkhipov (196 IAP, Airacobra).
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 10 Dec 2021 20:51

In 28 June: 29 GIAP mentioned (in table of 275 IAD) to have lost 5 Yak-9 in combat. 13 VA reported also 5 Yak-9 combat losses (2 GIAK had not Yak losses).
Yes, according to the document that I have not seen before, and I met thanks to you, the loss of 29 GIAP - 5 Yak-9:
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view ... 44cc67a5v1

Thus, the loss of 275 IAD - 51 fighters.
When it comes to Airacobra losses of 196 IAP (5 confirmed also in table of losses of 275 IAD) II./54 pilots had no Airacobra claims according Tony
This is my guess, based on the departure times of the groups in which there were losses and claims of the Finns and Germans.

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 10 Dec 2021 20:59

275 IAD table based on reports of units 14 GIAP, 29 GIAP, 159 IAP, 191 IAP and 196 IAP mentioned losses caused by AA
Again, this is my version that the losses were from fighters and not from AA, I can be wrong. Claims sometimes correlate well in time (and place) with the time of AA loss.
He did not mention anything hinting to "did not return". So likely one of those damaged Yak-9s was crashed on landing and just written off rather soon? 275 IAD table of losses confirmed losses of 7 Airacobra and one La-5.
It could also be that the plane recorded as not returning was later on its territory. Also in the 13th VA was 283 IAP, which was not part of the 275 IAD. 283 IAP was armed with a Yak, perhaps he suffered losses.

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 11 Dec 2021 10:49

I have found these Il-2 loss cases from period 9 June to 30 June 1944 linked to battles in Karelian Isthmus and Bay of Vyborg.

09.06.44: 1 Il-2 (52 OKAE), pilot Obidin captured in Termola at morning, reason for loss unknown
09.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down by AA (crew, major Balakan, sergeant Temnov KIA)
09.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down by AA (the crew jr ltn Zakharov and sgnt Launov killed)
09.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) was hit by AA then shot down by fighter (pilot unharmed, gunned wounded)

4 in combat (3 AA, case of 52 OKAE unknown - accident or AA?)

10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) AA (forced landing own territory, crew pilot Kharlamov and Mulin injured) КЕКСГОЛЬМ area (?)
10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down by AA (plane crashed, crew Veselov and Tsygankov KIA), Alakylä
10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down by AA (plane crashed, crew Boldin and Vakrusev KIA) Kivennapa
10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down by AA (pilot Skalnov injured, gunner Zapolski unharmed)
10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down by AA, Kellomäki ( planed crashed and exploaded, crew pilot Perov and Odegov?was killed)
(10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) lost in accident, engine problems, pilot dropped bombs at low altitude, plane exploded, Kravchuk and Pekhovtsov killed?
(10.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD), pilot Jr. lieutenant Dolinsky, when taking off on a combat mission, dodged to the right, Unable, due to the limited size of the runway, to correct the direction of take-off, hit the right plane on the niche The plane is broken, not subject to repair. The crew is injured.)


5 in combat (all AA)

11.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down by AA Petäjäjärvi (plane crashed, crew Abidov and Petuhov POW), Petuhov captured in Noitermaa
11.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down by AA 4 km NE Terijoki (plane crashed, Shchenyayev and Izmagambetov KIA)
11.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down by AA at Kirkkojärvi (crew Lazarev and Zenkov MIA)
(11.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD), pilot ml. during takeoff at combat mission, at an altitude of 100 meters, the engine slowed down. The pilot made an emergency landing with a tailwind and a miss. Crashed into a niche, the plane is broken beyond repair, the crew is injured.)

3 in combat (all AA)

12.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD,15 GShAP) shot down by AA (plane crashed, pilot Kupin KIA, gunner Khlynin WIA)
13.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD shot down by AA (force landing Tokshovo, plane crashed crew Garmash and Tishenko unharmed)

2 in combat (12 - 13 June, both AA)

14.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down by AA emergency landing 2km west from Raivola (plane broken, pilot Zaitsev WIA, gunner Čertov KIA), Zaitsev was captured in Sahakylä but he managed to escape during the same day
14.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down by AA , Kanneljärvi(plane crashed, pilot Andreev and gunner Rubtsev KIA)
14.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down by AA (crew Smirnov and Lopatin KIA) crashed in "ПухтолА ГОРА"
14.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down by AA crashed near Raivola station(crew Krylov and Lobanov KIA)
(14.06.44: 3 Il-2 (7 GShAP, VVS KBF) damaged by AA time 15.08-15.27)

4 in combat ( all AA)

15.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down by AA, Liikola, Kuuterselkä (plane crashed, pilot Bykov, gunner Ardashev KIA
15.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down by AA, Liikola (plane crashed, crew Tsuganov and Budzalin KIA)
15.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD,448 ShAP) shot down by AA at Kuolemanjärvi (crew Ermilov and Alesandrov KIA)
15.06.44: 1 Il-2 (8 GShAP, VVS KBF) shot down by AA in Karelian Isthmus at 17.08-17.18 (Vвуотта?). (Arch. 19104, L. 564.)
Smakov (jr sgnt) and jr ltn Vasili Rybalchenko MIA (Vuotsi?, Vuotto?)
(15.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) fire on aircraft above airfield (crew pilot Korostin and gunner Simonov parachuted))

4 in combat (all AA)

16.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 15 GShAP ) shot down by AA, Pampola? (plane crashed, crew pilot Fedoseev and gunner Baikov KIA)
16.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) hit in air combat, gunner killed pilot parachuted (crew captain Grafov wounded, gunner Agafonov KIA)
16.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 448 ShAP) shot down by AA in Kuolemanjärvi (pilot Akulov KIA, gunner Khlebnikov MIA)

3 in combat (2 by AA)

17.06.44: 5 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down in air combat in Liikola (4 crew killed, 1 forced landed in Liikola)
17.06.44: 3 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 448 ShAP) shot down in aircombat with Fw-190 in Leipäsuo-Suulajärvi (pilot jr ltn Kholodnokov and gunner private Zagorodny KIA, pilot Volkov OK, gunner Juskov badly wounded, pilot Kochkov (KIA?) gunner private Taburkin DOW)
17.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down in aircombat with 3 bf-109 in "ЛАУНАТИОКИ" ? aircraft landed on forest (pilot Molchanov WIA, gunner OK)
17.06.44: 2 Il-2 (8 GshAP, VVS KBF) shot down (AA) in Teikarsaari (Vasili Markov (jr ltn), Aleksander Protsuk (jr ltn)Viktor Volodin (sgnt), Nikolai Silantiev (jr sgnt) KIA)

11 in combat (2 by AA)

18.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) shot down in air combat at Kivennapa ( gunner Ivaschenko KIA, pilot Potapov unharmed)
(18.06.44: 2 Il-2 made emergency landing caused by damaged, perhaps 281 ShAD aircraft?)
18.06.44: 6 Il-2 (VVS KBF) shot down by AA in Bay of Vyborg: sgnt Ivan Zhemok (7 gpshap), Basil Zakharov (7 gpshap),sgnt Ivan Zeljuk (7 gpshap), Vladimir Rextin(8 gshafp)AA, guards ltn. Pjotr Babkin (8 gshafp )AA, captain Nikolai Nikolajev (8 gshafp), jr sgnt Aleksei Cherenkov (8 gshafp ), Anatoli Soskov (47 shafp, Ristiniemi), Juri Seregin (47 shafp, Teikarsaari) and jr sgnt Ivan Maksimenko (35 shap ), Grigori Stulius (47 ShAFP), Pjotr Bratchikov jr ltn 47 ShAFP, jr ltn Grigory Galushko (7 GpShaKP). Not sure are these persons linked to losses in Bay of Vyborg and are days correct.

9 (or 7) in combat (6 by AA)

19.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 15 GShAP) shot down in air combat Säiniö (pilot Aleksei Savin killed, gunner Demidov wounded)
19.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 15 GShAP) shot down in air combat (gunner Tutkushev killed, pilot Zhuravkin wounded)
19.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down in air combat Kämärä? (pilot Karazev MIA, gunner Shevchenko KIA)
19.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down in air combat Kämärä? (crew pilot Fedorov (?), gunner Gundorin KIA)
19.06.44: 1 Il-2(277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down in air combat Yläsommee (crew pilot Shmarov, gunner Ryabchuk KIA)
19.06.44: 3 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down in aircombat (with D-21??) (3 crews killed)
19.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down by AA at Autiokampela ( crew MIA)
19.06.44: 3 Il-2 (VVS KBF) shot down by AA in Vyborg Bay. 2 of the damaged made emergency landing, not likely written-off?
(19.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) lost in accident when returning from combat, engine problem, aircraft written off)

12 in combat (4 by AA)

20.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down in air combat, Näykkijärvi? (plane crashed, pilot Morozov gunner Ivanov KIA)
20.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277ShAD,regiment) shot down in air combat, Humola???,(forced landed in forerst, crew unharmed)
20.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down in aicombat (3 bf-109) in Tali, crew unharmed
20.06.44: 2 Il-2 (VVS KBF) shot down by AA (jr sgnt Vasili Lukonin (35 ShAP) died, Nikolai Ryaboshtan (35 ShAP) died, jr sgnt Vladimir Kulikov (7 GshAP), Sergei Arhipov (47 ShAP, Novayo Ladoga), jr ltn Mihail Zinoviev (7 GshAKP) KIA (AA) , jr ltn Vladimir Eisenmesser 35 ShAKP (AA)
(20.06.44: 1 Il-2 (VVS KBF) accident: after diving attack pilot didn't manage to pull aircraft and it hit to water and sunk, crew killed

5 in combat (2 by AA)

21.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, regiment?) shot down in air combat, Limetto? (forced landed, plane crashed, crew wounded
21.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD), regiment? shot down in air combat (plane crashed, crew unharmed)
21.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down in air combat Konkkala, pilot Servantstakhiev, gunner Kuznečikov KIA
21.06.44: 5 Il-2(277 ShAD, 999 ShAP) shot down in air combat 2 km N Konkkala (under command of Proskurin)
(pilot Proskurin and gunner Saveljev did not return, pilot Šerstobitov and gunner Koreshkov did not return,pilot Makarov and gunner Petrov KIA, pilot Moroshin and gunner Stralnikov KIA. Pilot Cesarev WIA, gunner Chistyakov KIA)
21.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down by AA ( pilot unharmed, gunner wounded)
21.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 703 ShAP) shot down in aircombat Portinhoikka ?(crew killed) pilot Berlejev captured in Porttihoikka
21.06.44: 4 Il-2 (VVS KBF) shot down by AA in Vyborg Bay, two of them from ships : jr ltn Aleksander Shevchenko (7 GPSKaKP), jr sgnt Nikolai Trishankov (7 GShAP), Vanhakylä, ltn Nikolai Vargin (8 GShAFP), jr sgnt Victor Gubin (8 GShAFP) Piisaari) KIA, guards ltn Pjotr Maksyota (35 GShAKP) ( MIA, sgnt Konstantin Loskutov (35 GShAKP ) and guards jr ltn Nikolai Vargin (8 GShaFP 1 AE)

14 in combat ( 5 by AA)

(22.06.44: Il-2 (277 ShAD), pilot Jr. Lieutenant MATVEY. during the transfer to the BOBOCHINO airfield, during the run, the plane went to the right, got into a crater from a bomb, the plane is not subject to repair, the crew is unharmed. use of stormtroopers.)

23.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down by AA Kaipola (plane crashed, crew pilot Dubovoy and gunner Vladimirov KIA)
23.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, regiment?) shot down in air combat, Ikspya??? (crew Matveev and gunner Shulga unharmed)
23.06.44: 2 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down in air combat ( 2 bf-109) in Tienhaara crew Serg I. Yakimenko and Private A. Dengin KIA
23.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down by AA, emergency landing at Tammisuo
23.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down by AA (crew unharmed)

6 in combat ( 3 by AA)

24.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down by AA , Juustila?(crew pilot Mishutkin and gunner Barmatov? KIA)

1 in combat (AA)

26.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 943 ShAP) shot down by AA (plane burned down, crew pilot Garmaš and gunner Amakayev KIA)
26.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) shot down in air combat (plane broken, crew unharmed?)
26.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD) shot down in air combat (plane broken, crew pilot Stepanov, gunner (?) injured)
26.06.44: 1 Il- 2 (281 ShAD,872 ShAP) shot down in air combat (bf-109) (crew pilot Yukov and gunner Zaitsev KIA)

4 in combat ( 1 by AA)

28.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down by AA Pertti?( plane crashed, crew pilot Drachev and gunner Perelygin KIA)
28.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 566 ShAP) shot down in air combat at Muolaanjärvi ( crew major Zelenko, gunner Anashkin (?) KIA)
28.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 448 ShAP) shot down in aircombat in Juustila (Fw-190) (crew piloy lny Medved and gunner Rumyantsev MIA)
28.08.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 448 ShAP) shot down in aircombat (crew pilot Sorokovyh DOW, gunner Gladkin ?)

4 in combat (1 by AA)

29.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 15 GShAP) shot down in air combat ( pilot Zhdanov KIA, gunner Makarov? KIA)
29.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 15 GShAP) shot down in air combat (pilot Slobodin KIA, gunner Teterin KIA)
29.06.44: 1 Il-2 (277 ShAD, 15 GShAP) shot down in aircombat (pilot Gudashov KIA, gunner Kaliukh KIA)
29.06.44: 1 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 448 ShAP) shot down in aircombat (crew pilot Rodin, gunner Mikhailovic KIA)

4 in combat

30.06.44: 2 Il-2 (281 ShAD, 872 ShAP) shot down in aircombat with 4 bf-109s and 4 Fw-190 ( Pilot Dmitri Andreev OK,gunner Mibakhmet Nurmukhamedov MIA, pilot Nikolai Gilek MIA and gunner Salam Kasimov MIA). "At the time of the target attack, group 6 IL-2 was attacked
8 enemy fighters, 4 BF-109 at H = 300-400m attacked the Il-2s from below from behind and 4 "FW-190 from above
from the side. "


2 in combat

Total 97 in combat: 1Il-2 52 OKAE, 18 VVS KBF ( 2 of them emergency landing likely just damaged) and the rest 277 (45) and 281 ShAD (31 + 2 emergency landing).
- 277 ShAD reported (in table of losses) to have lost 28 Il-2 in air combat, 17 by AA and rest 4 were accidents. 277 ShAD report (table of losses) matched well with list of 45 combat cases.
- 281 ShAD reported (in table of losses) to have lost 17 in air combat, 10 by AA, 2 did not return, 2 accidents + 4 forced landing cases. 31 cases of 281 ShAD however is suggesting that 19 Il-2 may have been lost in air combat and 12 cases are linked to AA fire.
Last edited by tramonte on 11 Dec 2021 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 11 Dec 2021 20:19

Il-2 claims and time of II./JG 54

17.6.44: 8 Il-2 all between 13.20-13.40
18.6.44: 2 Il-2 ......8.35-8.36
19.6.44: 12 Il-2.... 12.10-12.56 (5 Il-2), 14.45 (1 Il-2), 17.05-18.00 (6 Il-2)
20.06.44: 2 Il-2 both 16.22-16.24
21.6.44: 9 Il-2, 8.22 (1), 9.30 (1), 12.50-13.50 (7 Il-2)
23.6.44: 5 Il-2, all 13.25-13.30
26.6.44: 1 Il-2, 13.12
29.6.44: 2 Il-2, both 19.32-19.38
30.6.44: 2 Il-2, both 19.22-19.32

FiAF Il-2 claims 17 June - 30 June 44.

17.6.44 06.20–07.10 Viktor Pyötsiä/ Olavi Puro Il-2
17.6.44 06.20–07.15 Lasse Kilpinen Il-2
17.6.44 06.25–07.25 Kai Metsola Il-2
17.6.44 06.25–07.25 Viktor Pyötsiä Il-2
17.6.44 11.05–12.00 Viktor Pyötsiä Il-2
17.6.44 13.20–14.30 Paavo Myllylä Il-2
17.6.44 11.10–12.20 Eino Luukkanen Il-2
17.6.44 11.10–12.00 Olli Puhakka Il-2
17.6.44 5.20–6.35 Kauko Tuomikoski Il-2

18.6.44 7.35–8.35 K. Joutseno Il-2

19.6.44 16.00–17.15 Paavo Myllylä Il-2
19.6.44 16.00–17.15 Klaus Alakoski Il-2
19.6.44 16.00–17.15 Olli Puhakka Il-2

20.6.44 10.40–11.25 Emil Vesa 2 Il-2
20.6.44 10.40–11.25 Ahti Laitinen 2 Il-2
20.6.44 08.30–09.20 Olavi Puro Il-2
20.6.44 7.10–8.05 Mauno Kirjonen Il-2
20.6.44 7.10–8.05 Mauno Fräntilä Il-2
20.6.44 7.10–7.30 P. Palm Il-2
20.6.44 10.45–12.00 Heimo Lampi Il-2

21.6.44 08.40–09.30 Aulis Lumme Il-2
21.6.44 12.55–14.10 Kyösti Karhila Il-2
21.6.44 12.55–14.00 Eino Luukkanen Il-2

23.6.44 07.30–08.10 Tapio Järvi 2 Il-2
23.6.44 07.30–08.20 Nils Katajainen Il-2
23.6.44 12.15–12.50 Eino Luukkanen Il-2
23.6.44 07.30–08.20 Per-Erik Ohls Il-2
23.6.44 13.30–14.35 Luutn Olavi Puro Il-2
23..6.44 07.30–08.20 Emil Vesa 3 Il-2

26.6.44 13.05–14.20 Nils Katajainen 2 Il-2
26.6.44 10.30–11.05 Eero Halonen 2 Il-2
26.6.44 10.30–11.10 Tapio Järvi 2 Il-2
26.6.44 12.45–13.45 Jorma Saarinen 2 Il-2
26.6.44 10.30–11.10 Aulis Lumme Il-2
26.6.44 12.55–14.00 Ilmari Juutilainen Il-2
26.6.44 12.55–14.15 H. Salomies Il-2
26.6.44 12.55–14.15 Onni Paronen Il-2

28.6.44 10.25–11.05 Nils Katajainen Il-2
28.6.44 09.00–10.00 Emil Vesa 2 Il-2
28.6.44 09.00–10.00 Hans Wind 2 Il-2
28.6.44 19.55–21.05 Klaus Alakoski 2 Il-2
28.6.44 11.00–11.45 Tapio Järvi 2 Il-2
28.6.44 14.00–15.00 Jorma Saarinen 3 Il-2
28.6.44 09.00–10.15 Väinö Suhonen Il-2
28.6.44 09.00–10.05 Atte Nyman Il-2
28.6.44 14.00–14.55 Jouko Huotari Il-2
28.6.44 09.00–09.40 Tapio Järvi Il-2
28.6.44 13.55–15.05 E. Lyly Il-2
28.6.44 11.00–12.00 Eero Riihikallio Il-2
28.6.44 14.00–15.00 Eero Riihikallio Il-2
28.6.44 11.05–11.50 Luutn Väinö Suhonen Il-2

29.6.44 18.30–19.35 Tapio Järvi Il-2
29.6.44 18.50–19.50 Nils Katajainen Il-2
29.6.44 18.30–19.40 Atte Nyman Il-2

30.6.44 10.50–12.15 Ilmari Juutilainen Il-2
30.6.44 18.50–19.50 Leo Ahokas Il-2
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 12 Dec 2021 19:16

Summing up the results of fighters, the losses are as follows:
2nd IAK Air Defense - 24
275 IAD - 51
Air Force KBF - 7
06/21/44 shot down in air battles - 4 La-5 and 2 Lagg-3 of the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force. Of these, 4 La-5 and 1 Lagg-3 were shot down by pilots II./JG 54, and 1 Lagg-3 was most likely on the account of the Finnish Me-109 (although there it is necessary to clarify the time).
06/29/44 1 Yak-9 reconnaissance aircraft of the KBF Air Force - II./JG 54 was shot down.

A total of 82 fighters were lost. But if we do not count the 4 that collided with each other, then the combat losses from the actions of the enemy are - 78 fighters.

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 12 Dec 2021 19:43

As regards the losses of the IL-2, I have no differences from the data that I have not seen before.
Combat irrecoverable losses from enemy actions in the 277th and 281st ShAD amounted to 74 IL-2. Of the other units, 2 Il-2s were also lost.
Also, the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force lost 18 Il-2s, all according to their data from AA.
Total combat losses - 94 IL-2.
Of these, according to my old estimates, 49 were shot down by fighters, 33 were shot down by the Germans, 16 were shot down by the Finns. Here it is necessary to clarify, perhaps this figure is overestimated by 2 IL-2.

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 13 Dec 2021 09:09

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
12 Dec 2021 19:43

Of the other units, 2 Il-2s were also lost.
52 OKAE loss mentioned (9.6.44).What was the other and when?

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
12 Dec 2021 19:43

Of these, according to my old estimates, 49 were shot down by fighters, 33 were shot down by the Germans, 16 were shot down by the Finns. Here it is necessary to clarify, perhaps this figure is overestimated by 2 IL-2.
Little bit less for FiAF pilots than I estimate. 28 June when II./JG54 had no Il-2 claims there were just 3 Il-2 losses in air combat while FiAF pilots claimed 20!!!

Did you see cases where Il-2s were shot down by II./JG54 without even German claim (like in 28 June) ? Or shot down by fighter through 277 ShAD, 281 ShAD or VVS KBF reported it loss by AA fire. They reported to have lost 45 Il-2 by AA (17+10+18).
Last edited by tramonte on 13 Dec 2021 09:43, edited 1 time in total.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 13 Dec 2021 09:29

lemke_w_w_s_d_m wrote:
12 Dec 2021 19:16

A total of 82 fighters were lost. But if we do not count the 4 that collided with each other, then the combat losses from the actions of the enemy are - 78 fighters.
Two if.
1) If 6 fighters of 275 IAD were shot down by AA as it reported in table (1 July losses were all in air combat, I checked it)

2) If 5 fighters of 2 GIAK were shot down by AA as its June table claimed

... then fighters lost in air combat have been less than 70.

Finnish AA units claimed 50 fighters or unknown single engine aircraft in June. If 25% claims were true "killings" then 12-13 of which 8-9 in Karelian Istmus might be quite realistic result. According reports of 7 VA 4 fighter aircraft were shot down by Finnish AA in Karelian front during June.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 13 Dec 2021 18:16

52 OKAE loss mentioned (9.6.44).What was the other and when?
To clarify this, re-read everything written by me again). Perhaps the exact same 52nd KRAE lost the Il-2, were still in the 13th VA - 12, 49, 72 KRAE.
Little bit less for FiAF pilots than I estimate. 28 June when II./JG54 had no Il-2 claims there were just 3 Il-2 losses in air combat while FiAF pilots claimed 20!!!
There are certainly all victories for the Finns.
Did you see cases where Il-2s were shot down by II./JG54 without even German claim (like in 28 June) ? Or shot down by fighter through 277 ShAD, 281 ShAD or VVS KBF reported it loss by AA fire. They reported to have lost 45 Il-2 by AA (17+10+18).
The Germans had cases when, without a claim, they achieved victory. For example, on 06/21/44 pilots announced 2 La-5s in an air battle with the Red Banner Baltic Fleet Air Force, but in reality they shot down 4 La-5s.
In my subjective opinion, the Germans had this in air battles with 13 VA.
Apparently, in some cases where, according to the data of the 13th VA Il-2, AA was shot down, I thought that it was shot down by fighters. Therefore, I got 49 Il-2s shot down by fighters.

lemke_w_w_s_d_m
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: 22 Nov 2021 09:27
Location: Small Russia

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by lemke_w_w_s_d_m » 13 Dec 2021 18:40

Two if.
1) If 6 fighters of 275 IAD were shot down by AA as it reported in table (1 July losses were all in air combat, I checked it)

2) If 5 fighters of 2 GIAK were shot down by AA as its June table claimed

... then fighters lost in air combat have been less than 70.

Finnish AA units claimed 50 fighters or unknown single engine aircraft in June. If 25% claims were true "killings" then 12-13 of which 8-9 in Karelian Istmus might be quite realistic result. According reports of 7 VA 4 fighter aircraft were shot down by Finnish AA in Karelian front during June.
Here you have to deal with each case separately. Know the time and place of the anti-aircraft gunners' claim. My opinion that in some cases the 275 IAD and 2nd IAK fighters were shot down not by AA, but by enemy fighters, needs a deeper and more detailed investigation.

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 14 Dec 2021 10:25

With the big picture, that II./JG54 pilots had far more reliable claim rate % than FiAF pilots had i totally agree. This can be cross cheched with certain days and periods:1 - 16 June, days 19.6, 20.6, 21.6, 22.6, 23.6 and 28.6. There was clear strong correlation between claims of II./JG54 and Soviet losses (in air combat) but much weaker with those claims of FiAF pilots.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

User avatar
tramonte
Member
Posts: 328
Joined: 13 Oct 2015 10:05
Location: Southern Finland

Re: Finnish air victories (LeR 3) on 21.6.-7.7.1944

Post by tramonte » 14 Dec 2021 12:58

With bomber losses there are some open questions especially when it comes to 113 BAD, but here' s what I have found (or guessed):

09.06.44 1 Tu-2 (334 BAD, 134 BAP) did not return from combat mission, Kanneljärvi. Jegor Bykhovtsev POW,
Dmitry Bolotnov, Alexander Silin, Vasily Tsarapkin, MIA. FiAF no claims of Tu-2 but several of Il-4.
09.06.44 1 Tu-2 (334 BAD) when landing in air field, accident?
09.06.44: 2 Il-4 (113 BAD, one 55 BAP other 836 BAP) shot down/did not return: 8 crew members MIA (3 captured in Silantojärvi, 55 BAP)

(13 VA report: 1 Tu-2 did not return, 1 Tu-2 when landing, no mentioned of 2 lost Il-4??)

10.06.44: 1 Tu-2, shot down in air combat likely by Juutilainen HäLeLv34. He claimed it between 6.20-7.30 (Helsinki time) at Vaskisavotta, near frontline.
10.06.44: 1 Tu-2 (334 BAD), AA at around 10 a.m
10.06.44: 1 Il-4 (AA)
10.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (VVS KBF) force landing near Sesterosk (Siestarjoki), no crew losses
(10.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD) was damaged by AA fire and made emergency landing on Sosnovka airbase. Not reported as aircraft loss)

(13 VA report: 1 Tu-2 and 1 Il-4 AA, 1 Tu-2 shot down in air combat)

15.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 140 BAP), shot down by AA in Kiviniemi, (Karasev, Nazimov, Aksenikhin 140 BAP, MIA)

(13 VA report: 1 Pe-2)

17.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 140 BAP) Antrea, did not return from combat mission(crew Olenich,Galygin, Antonovich, MIA)
17.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD,34 BAP) caused by AA, made emergency landing (one crew member Rudnev, Dmitri 34 BAP KIA)
17.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD) touched the another plane and damaged the gas system,got force landing on water, aircraft sunk, no personal losses.

(13 VA report: 1 Pe-2 did not return, 1 Pe-2 emergency landing)

18.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 34BAP) shot down in air combat, Hiitola (Karasev(POW), Nazimov (POW),
Aksenikhin 34 BAP MIA). Shot down by Brewster-pilots of hvlelv26.

(13 VA report: 1 Pe-2 did not return)

19.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 58 BAP), shot down by AA in Simola
19.06.44: 2 Il-4 (113 BAD, 836 BAP at least one of Il-4s)1 did not return, 1 shot down in Säiniö, at least 6 crew men MIA). Claims 2 Il-4 snr sgnt Lyly HävLeLv34 around same area, at Uuras time 20.00-21.15.

(13 VA report: 1 Pe-2 and 1 Il-4)

21.06.44: 1 Il-4 (836 BAP) shot down (AA?) /did not return (Dragunov POW (died) , Fedorenko POW, Ermakov, Meshkov MIA) . No claims from any pilots. Can this Il-4 match with claim of Juutilainen HävLeLv 34 previous day when he claimed 2 Il-4 in Bay of Vyborg (Ristiniemi - Tiurinsaari 7.10-.8.00)? Finnish POW data did have errors with captured time. However 113 BAD reported crew MIA in 21 June, not 20 June. VVS KBF lost one Il-4 torpedo bomber 20.6.44 but in Pogra, Syväri (Svir).

(13 VA report:???)

23.06.44: 1 Il-4 shot down in air combat? Ivan Bacherikov 23.06.44 MIA. He was captured in Tienhaara.

(13 VA report:1 Il-4 did not return)

28.06.44: 1 Pe-2 shot down by AA (? Not 276 BAD Pe-2???)) Not mentioned in loss list of 276 BAD.
(13 VA report: 1 Pe-2 lost)

29.06.44: 1 IL-4 (113 BAD,836 BAP) shot down in aircombat (ltn Minin, Grigori and ltn Mamonov Gleb both MIA)
29.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 58 BAP) AA ,when performing a combat mission before reaching Kuokkala aircraft burned, crew of the ltn Markov unharmed)
29.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 58 BAP) AA, got hit in Kuokkala, did not return from combat mission, aircraft burned and crew of Manakov, Zaozerov and Avramenko were killed
29.06.44: 1 Pe-2 (276 BAD, 58 BAP) Air combat (Yershov, Pichel and Chabei) got hit in air combat emergency landing.

(13 VA report: 1 Il-4 and 1 Pe-2 shot down in air combat 1 Pe-2 did not return, 1 Pe-2 hit in air combat emergency landing, crew not harmed)

30.06.44: 1 Pe-2 shot down in air combat. Navigator Nesterovich KIA, pilot Malev and gunner Malykh parachuted
30.06.44: 1 Il-4 shot down in air combat, no hint of crew losses

(13 VA report: 1 Pe-2 and 1 Il-4 shot down in air combat)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

276 BAD reported loss of 20 crew members including case of one man (Medvedev, Vasili 58 BAP) captured by Finns in Liikola 13 June while 276 BAD reported no Pe-2 losses on that day. He was reported also as MIA.

Combat losses (Pe-2 aircraft written off) of 276 BAD in its list:

1) 15.6.44 Kiviniemi AA
2) 17.6.44 accident, touched other aircraft, damaged gas system, aircraft sank on water in Gulf of Finland
3) 17.6.44 did not return after performing combat mission in Antrea (pilot Galygin)
4) 17.6.44 was hit by AA fire, emergency landing in Puskin (pilot Zaitsev)
5)18.6.44 (did not return, other document: shot down by Brewster aircraft(s))
6) 19.6.44 shot down by AA, place mentioned Hovinmaa (it was shot down by AA in Simola station area)
7) 29.6.44 did not return
8) 29.6.44 shot down by AA
9) 29.6.44 shot down by AA
10) 30.6.44 shot down in air combat

Crew combat losses in June 44:

276 BAD, 20 crew members including 6 pilots
113 BAD, 24 crew members (9.6.44:8, 10.6.44: 1, 19.6.44: 6, 21.6.44: 4, 23.6.44:1, 29.6.44:4
334 BAD, 8 crew members (9.6.44: 4, 10.6.44:4)
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

Return to “Winter War & Continuation War”