Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#46

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Dec 2017, 17:17

This is not that big deal. The question is just about small mistake(s). Everyone makes them.
Some admit them, some put the blame on the others.
Claes Johansen wrote:
Originally, at the photo, there was only mentioned about the persons at the photo. Later they [SA-Kuva] have added the "arriving from the negotiations at Moscow".
Which shows that I was exactly right all the way from the start,...
You posted that the two persons at the photo were heading to Moscow.
That is and was not from that SA-photo.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#47

Post by Claes Johansen » 14 Dec 2017, 18:05

@Juha Tompuri
This is not that big deal. The question is just about small mistake(s). Everyone makes them.
Some admit them, some put the blame on the others.
That's an pretty incredible thing to say after that lying and manipulating propaganda hoax you have just tried to make me a victim of in front of the entire forum.
You posted that the two persons at the photo were heading to Moscow.
That is and was not from that SA-photo.
Of course not, but once again you somehow manage to completely miss the actual point and I really don't have the energy to explain it to you all over again.
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#48

Post by Juha Tompuri » 14 Dec 2017, 21:20

Not lying, nor manipulating.
Claes Johansen at page 2 photo caption wrote:”Väinö Tanner (left, 1881- 1966) and Juho Paasikivi (1870-1956) on
their way to negotiations in Moscow, October 1939”
Claes Johansen earlier wrote:
What is your source for your photo caption?
According to the SA-photo caption the gentlemen are returning from the negotiations, and the date also seems to be wrong.
The caption was taken from the SA-site at the time I wrote the book. Some time later they revamped the site and corrected many errors, as you may recall.
No, if to believe the SA-photo officials.

Regards, Juha

P.S.
Would it be possible to have the SA-photo numbers of the SA-photos you have used at your book?
A couple of them are for some unknown reasons quite difficult to track, even using your photo captions at your book.

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#49

Post by Claes Johansen » 14 Dec 2017, 22:57

@Juha Tompuri

No, I'm not going to explain the whole thing to you again. Furthermore my brain has reached a point where it simply refuses to take in any more of your strange statements in Finglish and try to make any kind of sense of them.

So forget it and go, er, enjoy yourself.
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#50

Post by JariL » 15 Dec 2017, 18:11

Hi Claes,

My last comment was not about the book but for what you wrote after the reference. The tone was perhaps intentionally chosen to rub some feathers. However, at the same time I think it became very close to the argument “ Finland fought with the Nazis ergo Finnish leaders were Nazis or at least Nazi sympathizers”. To me that explanation is far too simple and it’s consequence is that there were only a few bad individuals that are to be blamed. Shame to the leaders and absolution to the people;-)

Regards,

Jari

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#51

Post by Claes Johansen » 15 Dec 2017, 19:56

Since Finglish seems to have become an accepted language in this section of the AHF forum, due to it being constantly used by one of the forum staff members and moderators, I thought I'd have a go at it myself:

@JariL

"People" can hardly be blamed on how leaders keep them completely in the dark (often for good and justified reasons, I can add), not just in the events but actually in the last days.

So if we want to analyze responsibility, we can not avoid going to the leaders. But that does not mean we have to put in place a cheap and easy attitude. They have been able to do some things right and other things wrong. Or have I done too much of this and too little of another.

In my book, this question is discussed in chapter "Finnish Choice", especially the subtitle entitled "Question of the Degree" (page 168).

This is a way of looking at things that I grew up in relation to the traumatic and morally confusing WWII history of my own country and it became one of the alternative approaches I felt that a Danish person might have to get me when I wrote a book that we are discussing here. It's just a little unpleasant to go to dinner where all the other guests say they are: "You can either twist your Finnish ass and lick it completely clean without questions, or hate you and refuse to listen to you anything you have to say and we will help you out of the building at any of us means."

A bit hard to comprehend, isn't it? Okay, I'll try again in real English further down on this page.
Last edited by Claes Johansen on 16 Dec 2017, 03:11, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#52

Post by Juha Tompuri » 15 Dec 2017, 20:19

Claes Johansen wrote:@Juha Tompuri
No, I'm not going to explain the whole thing to you again.
Yes, please don't try to explain more.

Hate to ask you once again, but how about these:
Would it be possible to have the SA-photo numbers of the SA-photos you have used at your book?
A couple of them are for some unknown reasons quite difficult to track, even using your photo captions at your book.
For example the ones at pages 203 (mentioned to have been taken at Nurmoila) and 205 (mentioned to have been taken during combat at the River Syväri) have been proved to be quite difficult to track down from the SA-photo collection.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#53

Post by Claes Johansen » 16 Dec 2017, 02:50

CJ: BTW., what about your big peek-a-boo posting that still needs to be explained properly? Or are you somehow above the forum rules?
TJ: Really can't guess what you at this time mean.
CJ: I think perhaps you are taking your job here a little too easily and believe you have found a way to compensate for your lack of linguistic skills. However, you need to specify exactly why you want the rest of us to click onto a link to an other posting.

We are not here to waste our time guessing what you are thinking would work as answers. You need to answer in full yourself and then add the link as backup.
Apparently the latter is too hard to understand for the forum staff member/moderator on this thread, who seems to prefer Finglish to English. So let us try in Finglish, too, and see if we can finally get through to him and perhaps even get a proper reply:

I think you will take your job here a bit too easily and believe that you have found a way to compensate for the lack of language skills. However, you need to specify exactly why you want others to click on the link to another post.We are not here to waste our time to guess what you think to do in response. You have to answer completely yourself and add a link to your backup.
Last edited by Claes Johansen on 16 Dec 2017, 13:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#54

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Dec 2017, 12:41

Juha Tompuri wrote:
Hate to ask you once again, but how about these:
Would it be possible to have the SA-photo numbers of the SA-photos you have used at your book?
A couple of them are for some unknown reasons quite difficult to track, even using your photo captions at your book.
For example the ones at pages 203 (mentioned to have been taken at Nurmoila) and 205 (mentioned to have been taken during combat at the River Syväri) have been proved to be quite difficult to track down from the SA-photo collection.
The photo from the page 205 seems to be SA-photo number 93345, and that book photo caption seems to be truthful.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#55

Post by Claes Johansen » 16 Dec 2017, 13:27

And now back to real English:

@JariL
“Finland fought with the Nazis ergo Finnish leaders were Nazis or at least Nazi sympathizers”. To me that explanation is far too simple and it’s consequence is that there were only a few bad individuals that are to be blamed. Shame to the leaders and absolution to the people;-)
Well, "the people" can hardly be blamed for much with the way they were kept completely in the dark by the leadership (often for good and justifiable reasons, I may add), not just as things were happening but in fact all the way up to the most recent times.

So if we want to analyse responsibility, we can't avoid going to the leaders. But that doesn't mean we need to adopt an "either-or" attitude. They may have done some things right and other things wrong. Or they my have done too much of this and too little of the other.

In my book this issue is looked at in the chapter called "The Finnish Choice", particularly the sub-chapter headed "A Question of Degree" (p. 168).

It was this way of viewing things that I grew up with in relation to my own country's traumatised and morally confusing WWII history, and so it became one of the alternative approaches I felt that I, as a Danish person, perhaps had to bring to the table when I wrote the book we're discussing here. It's just a little unpleasant to go to a dinner party where all the other guests have to say is: "Either you lick our Finnish arse and lick it completely clean with no questions asked, or we shall hate you and refuse to listen to you anything you have to say and we shall chase you out of the building with any means available to us."
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#56

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Dec 2017, 13:40

Claes Johansen wrote:However, you need to specify exactly why you want others to click on the link to another post.
You seem not to have understood that the links there are the sources of my quotes.
For additional info, if someone is interested.
One really doesn't have to open them, they are there only if one wants to check the originals and backgrounds.

Regards, Juha

P.S. how about:
Would it be possible to have the SA-photo numbers of the SA-photos you have used at your book?
A couple of them are for some unknown reasons quite difficult to track, even using your photo captions at your book.
For example the #203 (mentioned to have been taken at Nurmoila)

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#57

Post by Claes Johansen » 16 Dec 2017, 14:31

You seem not to have understood that the links there are the sources of my quotes.
For additional info, if someone is interested.
One really doesn't have to open them, they are there only if one wants to check the originals and backgrounds.
No, it's you who don't understand or at least pretend to. When you refer to something in another posting you need to copy and paste in inverted commas the exact passage you are referring to and then put the link underneath. Anything else is sending the rest of us out on a wild goose chase - which of course just might be the very idea?

And now in Finglish:

No, you do not understand or at least pretend. When referring to something else for posting, you have to copy and paste into the reversed comma the exact paragraph you are referring to and then insert the link below. Everyone else sends us to wild wild goats - which of course can be just an idea?
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#58

Post by Claes Johansen » 16 Dec 2017, 18:35

@peeved

peeved: How was the photo mentioned by this online reviewer captioned in the book?

Claes Johansen:
It reads: "The dead body of a Russian PoW in the Finnish Naarajärvi Camp (SA-Kuva)" (p. 235)

The photograph used to be numbered 78913 on the SA-Kuva website, but that may have changed since then.
Has anyone managed to find this image in the SA archive?
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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#59

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Dec 2017, 19:40

Claes Johansen wrote: When you refer to something in another posting you need to copy and paste in inverted commas the exact passage you are referring to and then put the link underneath.
One of course can do it by that, sort of a bit difficult way. Really no problem.
Easier might be quoting the "manual" way, as also you seem to prefer.
I think the most recommendable, and also the easiest way is using the Forum inbuilt quote system, which most the Forum members seem to prefer.
When quoting older posts, in my opinion, links to them could be added. I think that might be polite towards to the other readers.

Regards, Juha

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Re: Book Hitler's Nordic Ally? Finland and the Total War 1939-45

#60

Post by Juha Tompuri » 16 Dec 2017, 19:45

Claes Johansen wrote:Has anyone managed to find this image in the SA archive?
Yep.
Just follow the instructions:
peeved wrote:
To see all the pictures from the Naarajärvi camp you'll have to do the Finnish text search 'Naarajärvi AND sotavank*'. You'll also have to tick the box saying 'päivättömät' (without date).
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic ... t#p2113273

Regards, Juha

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