103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

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103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Juha » 24 Mar 2018 20:56

Hello
according to Keskinen & Stenman, Suomen Ilmavoimat 1944 103 GIAP PVO lost 2 Airacobras on on 29 June 1944 in air combat over Karelia Isthmus but the book doesn't give any details. Does someone have any details, time, place, pilots etc?

TIA
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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Swing » 25 Mar 2018 08:22

According to war diary of Leningrad AAD-army (TsAMO 13613-20352-264) 24 Airacobras were near Justila at 8.36 – 9.45. Two of them were lost. Junior lieutenant Kapkanets jumped out with a parachute and landed successfully. The plane of junior lieutenant Mezin was seriously damaged in the battle and force landed. Plane was destroyed, pilot was WIA. The plane of junior lieutenant Arkhipov had damages (hits to motor and wings) but returned to base.

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Juha » 25 Mar 2018 12:01

Hello Swing
thanks a lot for your prompt and informative answer!
so the time suits for Puhakka’s 2 damaged Airacobras. According to his combat report, SE of Tali “I shot at one AC that dived down. In the second I shot long bursts. When I flew next to it I saw holes in both the fuselage and both wings. The pilot was apparently stunned/dazed as he went northwest towards Vyborg and appeared to make a forced landing northward between the lines northeast of Vyborg. Just above the ground, however, I saw it turning to the left. I could not follow the plane anymore because there were fighters and ILs in front of me... " ("Ammuin yhtä AC:tä, joka syöksyi alas. Toiseen ammuin pitkiä sarjoja. Lennettyäni sen viereen näin reikiä sekä rungossa että molemmissa siivissä. Ohjaaja oli ilmeisesti pökerryksissä, koska lähti luoteeseen kohti Viipuria ja näytti tekevän pakkolaskua pohjoiseen päin linjojen väliin Viipurin koillispuolelle. Aivan pinnassa näin sen kuitenkin kaartavan vasemmalle. En voinut enää seurata konetta, koska edessä oli taas hävittäjiä ja IL-koneita...")

So time is right, Puhakka was in air 07.25 – 08.25 Finnish time = 08.25-09.25 Moscow time, the place not exactly right but not hopelessly off. There is also Gerhard Thyben’s (5./JG 54) claim at 08.16 (09.16 Moscow time) at grid 91 349 which I put near Leipäsuo. Maybe junior lieutenant Arkhipov plane was the second Airacobra Puhakka shot at. And Kapkanets and Mezin were shot down by Puhakka and Thyben or those Airacobras were claimed as e.g. Yaks or one of them was shot down by Finnish AA, which claimed one Airacobra on that day, but I have no info where and when.

Thankfully
Juha

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by CF Geust » 25 Mar 2018 14:35

Airacobra Nr. 9242 piloted by D.D. Kaptkanets (who made a parachute jump) came down 10 km N Perkjärvi, Mezin (Airacobra Nr. 9066) made a belly landing 4 km NW Viipuri.

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Swing » 25 Mar 2018 15:50

According to war diary plane of Kaptkanets was shot down by FW-190. Arkhipov's plane had hits to motor, fuselage and both wings from Me-109, but Arkhipov claimed this Me-109. According to his report Me-109 came down 5 km E to Viipuri. Unfortunately there is no information about Mezin's opponent.
By the way, Kaptkanets was awarded by Order of Red Star on 28/6/1944.
P.S. Yak from 27 GIAP (junior lt. Furman) did not return to base that morning.

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Juha » 25 Mar 2018 17:30

Thanks a lot CF and Swing!
So Kaptkanets was clearly Thyben’s victim.
Finns lost one Bf 109 G-6, MT-439 flown by Laitinen at Ihantala 07.40 (Moscow time 08.40). Laitinen baled out and became PoW. So place is ok but time is a bit too early. Keskinen & Stenman allocated Laitinen to a La-5/159 IAP.
There was one other 109 loss (MT-244) but that was because of a take-off accident.

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Swing » 25 Mar 2018 19:04

Juha wrote: Finns lost one Bf 109 G-6, MT-439
Pilots from Leningrad AAD Army claimed 8 Me-109 and 3 FW-190 on 29/6/1944. Real situation is far far away from this report...

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Juha » 26 Mar 2018 07:28

Hello Swing
Thanks for the extra information!

Juha

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Swing » 26 Mar 2018 11:53


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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Juha » 26 Mar 2018 16:41

Hello Swing
Vau that would be an excellent source if I could read Russian! It still is somewhat useful, I can at least check the number and types of PVO fighters in air at certain time, heights and probably with a little work names and places.

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Juha

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Swing » 26 Mar 2018 20:00

Once upon a time I'd like to read Niilo Lappalainen and had to learn Finnish...

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by Juha » 27 Mar 2018 17:41

Hello Swing
If I had had an excellent crystal ball in early 70s I would have taken the opportunity to study Russian during my last school years but because I didn’t see the possibility that 40 years later there will be a device called pc and a system called internet and by typing an URL I’d get access to a PVO war diary I missed that opportunity.
Niilo Lappalainen, not a bad choise. I have read at least his Kuuterselkäkin murtui and IIRC it was IMHO a good book.

Juha

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by tramonte » 17 May 2018 12:05

Question number 1: Are time of claims of Kuhlmey unit actually Berlin or Helsinki time?

29.06.44 Ltn. Heinz Wernicke 5./JG 54 DB-3F  91 265: at 4.500 m. 08.05
29.06.44 Ltn. Albert Seevers 4./JG 54 Yak-9  81 352: at 4.500 m. 08.10
29.06.44 Ltn. Gerhard Thyben 5./JG 54 Airacobra  91 349: at 2.500 m. 08.16
29.06.44 Uffz. Herbert Koller 5./JG 54 Pe-2  91 322: at 1.000 m. 08.17
29.06.44 Ltn. Gerhard Thyben 5./JG 54 Yak-9  21 447: at 200 m. 07.03 (what's location of that coordinate? Far from Finland)

(Tony Wood's list there is mention:"Time in German Time: either CET or CET+1"

Thyben's claim coordinate 91349 is some 6 km east from Kämärä(Gavrilovo) and 4 km north from Leipäsuo (rus.ven. Лейпясуо)].

Question number 2: Was their other VVS fighter units operating at the same time (8.45 - 9.45 Moscow time)?

At least these units were using Airacobra's too:

- 196 IAP,Kasimovo: Airacobra (part of 13th Air Army)
- 102 GIAP, Levashevo: Airacobra
- 403 IAP, Uglovo: Airacobra
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by peeved » 17 May 2018 17:59

#1: In 1944 from 3 April 0200 hours CET to 2 October 0300 hours CET Berlin and Helsinki times were the same since Germany was observing daylight saving time and Finland not: cf. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sommerzeit & https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%C3%A4- ... %C3%A4aika

Markus

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Re: 103 GIAP PVO Airacobra losses on 29 Jun 1944

Post by tramonte » 20 May 2018 14:26

peeved wrote:#1: In 1944 from 3 April 0200 hours CET to 2 October 0300 hours CET Berlin and Helsinki times were the same since Germany was observing daylight saving time and Finland not: cf. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sommerzeit & https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%C3%A4- ... %C3%A4aika

Markus
Thanks a lot Markus.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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