Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

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Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Juha » 26 Mar 2018 17:31

Hello again
a new question, on 19 June 1944 Bf 109 G-6 pilots from 3./HLeLv 34 claimed three Il-2s Kämärä/Gavrilo Leipäsuo area, their mission was flown 16.00 – 17.15 Finnish time (17.00-18.15 Moscow time). Was any Il-2s lost at that time and area?
II./JG 54 claimed 2 Il-2s between Kämärä/Gavrilo and Villikkala/Kamenka and one near Heinjoen asema/Vestsevo between 17.05 and 17.15 CEST (18.05 - 18.15 Moscow time).

TIA
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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Swing » 26 Mar 2018 21:51

277 ShAD lost 3 Il-2 (2 pilots and 3 gunners) in Kämärä region. Another 3 Il-2 were damaged seriously.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Juha » 27 Mar 2018 17:43

Hello Swing
Thanks a lot!
Do you have the timeframe for those losses?

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Swing » 27 Mar 2018 17:56

Unfortunately I have no. Divsion's war diary states only losses. New issues at pamyat-naroda.ru are coming soon, please wait a little. Probably I can find some adds in May. By the way, my first Finnish book was "Veren kostuttamat saaret" and it became a window in Finnish history...

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Juha » 28 Mar 2018 10:57

Hello Swing
Thank you for your offer. No hurry, I have no deadlines.
There was no more Il-2 claims by FiAF on that day, Germans made several other Il-2 claims, one at Grid 91 381, which I put just east of Leipäsuo, at 17.42 (18.42 Moscow time) and the other at 81 467, IMHO some 6 km SW of Kämärä/ Gavrilovo at 12.53 (13.53 Moscow time) by Grollmuss and one by Quarda also at 91 381 at 17.46 (18.46).

It's always useful try to read info from both sides. Because of my lack of Russian skills I have read the Finnish translations of some Bair Irincheev's books and his and Artem Drabkin's Jatkosota Puna-armeijan silmin and Ari Raunio's & Juri Kilin's books. IMHO good books and the Russian POV has increased my understanding on the Winter and Continuation Wars.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Swing » 28 Mar 2018 13:20

Extract from 281 ShAD war diary, 19.6.1944. 37 planes, 69 flights.
Operating area Viipuri - Sommee – Ylä-Säiniö. Losses: 5 planes, 3 pilots, 3 gunners.
Early in the morning Il-2 (pilot jr.lt. Klementjev, gunner Panevin) was damaged by enemy and belly landed at air base, plane destroyed, crew survived.
8.00-8.15. 6 Il-2 + 4 La-5 attacked Honkaniemi station. Two Il-2 were shot down by Fokkers-21 (!). First burning plane (pilot jr.lt. Klementjev, gunner Panevin) crushed on the NW shore of the lake Näykkijärvi. Second plane (pilot jr.lt. Gangadze, gunner Gromov) belly landed W to Näykkijärvi, but crew did not return to base.
After first enemy attack Il-2s turned back. Il-2 (pilot lt. Bogdanov) claimed Fokker-21 1.5 km W to Näykkijärvi. Il-2 (pilot jr.lt. Migutski, gunner Zapevalov) was shot down 2 km SW Summa, plane exploded.
One Il-2 (pilot jr.lt Khramov, gunner Spektor) was seriously damaged and belly landed near Valkeasaari, crew survived.
One La-5 fighter was lost in this battle too. Soviet fighters claimed one Fokker.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Juha » 28 Mar 2018 22:57

Hello Swing and thanks for the information.
Interesting and confusing. According to Keskinen’s and Stenman’s Suomen Ilmavoimat 1944 those above mentioned Il-2 claims plus one Airacobra claimed during the same mission at Perkjärvi were the first claims of the FiAF over Karelian Isthmus on 19 June. Haapanen in his Kesäsota book writes that there was an earlier combat, 13.55-15.00 Finnish time mission by 3./HLeLv 34 (or at least 3 of the 4 MTs mentioned were MTs of 3./HLeLv 34. I had not time to confirm to which lentue the fourth belonged) during which 4 MTs fought with 12 Il-2s and 10 Airacobras between Muukonjärvi and Perkjärvi, claiming three Il-2s and one Airacobra. I have no idea on the exact location of Muukonjärvi. Haapanen also mentions the 16.00 – 17.15 Finnish time mission. wriring that during it eight MTs met 8 Il-2s and 10 Airacobras, claiming three Il-2s and one Airacobra and that there is no mention on this mission in the War Diary of HLeLv 34. My explanation is that Keskinen and Stenman have thought that there has been some confusion and the two missions are in fact one and same. Or they simply missed it. All that I can say that the War Diary of 3./HLeLv 34 doesn’t mention the 13.55-15.00 Finnish time mission and I recall seeing only the combat reports of 16.00 – 17.15 Finnish time mission where there are claims of three Il-2s and one Airacobra shot down and all claims were accepted/confirmed.
I have less info on LW ops but the earliest claim by LW on 19 June over Karelian Isthmus in Tony Wood's list of the LW claims is at 12.10, an Il-2 at 81 484, IMHO just east of Johannes/Sovetski. There are altogether 24 claims on 19 June 1944 by II./JG 54 in the Wood's list and Hannu Valtonen gives the same total in his Lento-osasto Kuhlmey book. So it seems that we have claims without victims and victims without claims.

BTW, the first LW claimant, von Obernitz (in Wood's list as Wernitz) was shot down by a Il-2 gunner, bailed out, tried to evade but was captured on 4th night on run and became PoW.

If we forget the fixed undercarriage of D.XXI, Wasp-Fokker and FW were not so different, radial engines and armament in wings, in the side view the radial engine, glassing of the cockpit area and the tail are not so far off, in plan view the short nose and the wings made them somewhat similar even if there was a clear difference in horizontal tail. But there have been stranger misidentifications. And some pilots and aircrews tended to see planes they were told to expect.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Swing » 29 Mar 2018 15:08

Juha wrote:Interesting and confusing.
Probably it was a typing error, but...
20251-0000001-0018-00000189.jpg
Additional info:

Fighters from 275 IAD claimed 11 x Me-109, 5 x FW-190 and 6 x D-21 on 19/6/1944. No comments :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Juha » 29 Mar 2018 21:57

Hello Swing
and thanks a lot for the scan and claims info!
Yes, 18.00-18.15 suits much better to the claims.
There is a 4./JG 54 claim for a La-5 at 17.11 CEST, Grid 81 497 at 600 m altitude.

If the pilots had not noticed national markings it is rather difficult to confuse D.XXI and Bf 109 G but at least the tails are similar. If they have noticed the national markings then it is possible that they have thought "a Finnish fighter, must be a Fokker" just as e.g. LW pilots often misidentified RAF Hurricanes as Spitfires. Of course only in the latter case the victim became more difficult and so more precious.

And Soviet fighters shot down at least one Fw 190 A on 19 June, Fw 190 A-6, White 11, W.Nr. 470075 Lt. Helmut Grollmus or Grollmuss (75 victories), shot down by a Soviet fighter, most probably an Airacobra, at circa 20.35 CEST 20 km NE of Viipuri. Grollmus bailed out but was shot dead by a Finnish infantryman.

Thankfully
Juha

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by CF Geust » 02 Apr 2018 07:42

On 19 June 1944 277 ShAD lost three Il-2s 17.45-18.50:
- 15 GShAP Jn.Lt Aleksei Savin and Sn.Serg Savin KIA, a/c 304117 or 304130, Säiniö
- 943 ShAP Jn.Lt Viktor Shmarov and Private Aleksandr Ryabchuk KIA, a/c 304938, Yläsommee (Sverdlovo)
- 999 ShAP Lt Vitali Fedorov and Sn.Serg Aleksandr Gudorin KIA, a/c 304483, Kämärä

Exact combat time unknown:
- 15 GShAP Jn.Lt Zhurvakin WIA, Jn.Serg Sergei Tutkushev KIA, a/c 304117 or 304130, Säiniö
- 999 ShAP Jn.Lt. Karasev MIA, gunner Shevcheno parachuted, a/c 304811, Kämärä

The same day at least five Il-2s of 872 ShAP (281 ShAD) were written off:
- Jn.Lt Fedor Klementyev and Private Viktor Panevin belly-landed with a/c 304778 after air combat hits at Yläsommee
- Jn.Lt Mihail Ingutskiy and Sn.Serg Ivan Zapevalov KIA, a/c 304472 shot down 2 km SW Summa
- Jn.Lt Arkadiy Gongadze and Private A. Gromov KIA, a/c 304846, air combat at Yläsommee, crashed at Nöykkijärvi
- Jn.Lt. Mihail Davydov and Serg Pavel Tsukanov KIA, a/c 188896, shot down by A-A artillery at Autiokampela
- Serg I. Yakimenko and Private A. Dengin KIA (no details)
- gunners V. Budoko and S. Volkov KIA, one a/c was 304719 which belly-landed after air combat

Fighter losses included one La-5 (159 IAP) and seven Airacobras (196 IAP), and three Yak-9s damaged (14 and 29 GIAP) of 275 IAD. 2 GIAK PVO (air defence fighter corps) lost one Yak-9 (27 IAP), one La-5 (401 IAP) and one Airacobra (103 GIAP).

Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) lost two Il-2s and one La-5 at the Bay of Viipuri.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Mangrove » 02 Apr 2018 08:44

CF Geust wrote: - Jn.Lt. Mihail Davydov and Serg Pavel Tsukanov KIA, a/c 188896, shot down by A-A artillery at Autiokampela
- I/32.Kev.It.Ptri claimed an IL-2 near Pero Station at Säiniö at 12.45 a.m on 19 June 1944.
- I/15.Kev.It.Ptri claimed two IL-2 SE and E of Säiniö at 12.52 a.m and 1.30 p.m on 19 June 1944.

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by Juha » 02 Apr 2018 23:43

Hello CF and Mangrove
Thanks a lot for the additional info, especially Carl for the comprehensive list of the Soviet losses on 19 June!
Carl, the time is Moscow time, I suppose?
Besides three Il-2 claims after noon and one at 14.45 and Grollmus' claim at 17.07 which I forgot to include in my first message, II./JG 54 claimed on 19 June Il-2s at 17.42, 17.43, 17.46 and 18.00, so altogether 12.

Thankfully
Juha

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 15 May 2018 06:17

Claims of 19 June 1944

These are German time, so i guess we have to add 2 hours to got Moscow time?

19.06.44 Ofw. Ulrich Wernitz Il-2  81 484: at 100 m. 12.10
19.06.44 Uffz. Jakob Assmann 4./JG 54 Airacobra  81 463: at 400 m. 12.40
19.06.44 Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Airacobra  81 462: at 500 m. 12.48
19.06.44 Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 467: at 400 m. 12.53
19.06.44 Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 497: at 200 m. 12.56
19.06.44 Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 484: at 20 m. 14.45
19.06.44 Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 495: at 200 m. 17.05
19.06.44 Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 377: at 200 m. 17.07
19.06.44 Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 313: at 100 m. 17.10
19.06.44 Uffz. Heinrich Schlomann 4./JG 54 La-5  81 497: at 600 m. 17.11
19.06.44 Fw. Werner Huss 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 495: at 400 m. 17.15
19.06.44 Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 381: at 200 m. 17.42
19.06.44 Uffz. Heinrich Schlomann 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 184: at 200 m. 17.43
19.06.44 Hptm. Herbert Aloé 4./JG 54 Airacobra  91 381: at 400 m. 17.44
19.06.44 Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 381: at 400 m. 17.46
19.06.44 Ltn. Heinz Wernicke 5./JG 54 Yak-9  91 533: at 30 m. 18.45
19.06.44 Maj. Erich Rudorffer Stab II./JG 54 Il-2  91 176: at 400 m. 18.00
19.06.44 Ltn. Gerhard Thyben 5./JG 54 Yak-9  81 623: at 2.200 m. 20.01
19.06.44 Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54 La-5  81 247: at 1.500 m. 20.05
19.06.44 Ltn. Gerhard Thyben 5./JG 54 Airacobra  81 626: at 1.200 m. 20.10
19.06.44 Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Airacobra  81 491: at 800 m. 20.15
19.06.44 Ltn. Gerhard Thyben 5./JG 54 Airacobra  81 415: at 800 m. 20.22
19.06.44 Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Pe-2  91 373: at 1.500 m. 20.25
19.06.44 Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Airacobra  81 833: at 3.000 m. 20.25

Finnish claims, time Helsinki (+1 hour to got Moscow time?)

19. kesäkuuta 1944 16.00–17.15 Kämärä.....Capt Olli Puhakka MT-415 Il-2 1
19. kesäkuuta 1944 16.00–17.15 Kämärä.....Ltn Paavo Myllylä MT-406 Il-2 1
19. kesäkuuta 1944 16.00–17.15 Leipäsuo and Perkjärv.... Sn. Sgt Klaus Alakoski MT-410 Il-2 and Airacobra
19. kesäkuuta 1944 20.00–20.55 Koivisto ja Kämärä....Urho Lehtovaara MT-406 2 x Pe-2 and 2 x Airacobra
19. kesäkuuta 1944 20.00–20.55 Kämärä-Kuolemanjärvi....Sn Ltn A. Nuorala MT-416 2 x Pe-2 2
19. kesäkuuta 1944 20.00–20.55 Härkölä....Sn. Srg A. Nuorala MT-416 La-5 1
19. kesäkuuta 1944 20.00–21.15 Uuras....Sn.Serg E. Lyly MT-426 2 x Il-4 2
19. kesäkuuta 1944 18.15–18.55 Hanhijärvi ja Vatnuori....Ltn Olavi Puro MT-201 2 x La-5 2
19. kesäkuuta 1944 20.10–21.10 Summa ja Johannes....Capt Hans Wind MT-439 2 x Pe-2 ja La-5
19. kesäkuuta 1944 20.20–21.10 Johannes....Ltn Jorma Saarinen MT-246 Airacobra 1


Changing Il-2 claims to Moscow time we will have:

Ofw. Ulrich Wernitz Il-2  81 484: at 100 m. 14.10
Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 467: at 400 m. 14.53
Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 497: at 200 m. 14.56
Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 484: at 20 m. 16.45
Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 495: at 200 m. 19.05
Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 377: at 200 m. 19.07
Uffz. Gerhard Frädich 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 313: at 100 m. 19.10
Fw. Werner Huss 4./JG 54 Il-2  81 495: at 400 m. 19.15
Ltn. Helmut Grollmuß 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 381: at 200 m. 19.42
Uffz. Heinrich Schlomann 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 184: at 200 m. 19.43
Uffz. Josef Quarda 4./JG 54 Il-2  91 381: at 400 m. 19.46
Maj. Erich Rudorffer Stab II./JG 54 Il-2  91 176: at 400 m. 20.00

Capt Olli Puhakka...........Kämärä............. Il-2 .....17.00–18.15
Ltn Paavo Myllylä...........Kämärä.................... Il-2 .....17.00–18.15
Sn. Sgt Klaus Alakoski...Leipäsuo and Perkjärv... Il-2 .....17.00–18.15
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 21 May 2018 19:20

CF Geust wrote:On 19 June 1944 277 ShAD lost three Il-2s 17.45-18.50:
- 15 GShAP Jn.Lt Aleksei Savin and Sn.Serg Savin KIA, a/c 304117 or 304130, Säiniö
- 943 ShAP Jn.Lt Viktor Shmarov and Private Aleksandr Ryabchuk KIA, a/c 304938, Yläsommee (Sverdlovo)
- 999 ShAP Lt Vitali Fedorov and Sn.Serg Aleksandr Gudorin KIA, a/c 304483, Kämärä

Exact combat time unknown:
- 15 GShAP Jn.Lt Zhurvakin WIA, Jn.Serg Sergei Tutkushev KIA, a/c 304117 or 304130, Säiniö
- 999 ShAP Jn.Lt. Karasev MIA, gunner Shevcheno parachuted, a/c 304811, Kämärä

The same day at least five Il-2s of 872 ShAP (281 ShAD) were written off:
- Jn.Lt Fedor Klementyev and Private Viktor Panevin belly-landed with a/c 304778 after air combat hits at Yläsommee
- Jn.Lt Mihail Ingutskiy and Sn.Serg Ivan Zapevalov KIA, a/c 304472 shot down 2 km SW Summa
- Jn.Lt Arkadiy Gongadze and Private A. Gromov KIA, a/c 304846, air combat at Yläsommee, crashed at Nöykkijärvi
- Jn.Lt. Mihail Davydov and Serg Pavel Tsukanov KIA, a/c 188896, shot down by A-A artillery at Autiokampela
- Serg I. Yakimenko and Private A. Dengin KIA (no details)
- gunners V. Budoko and S. Volkov KIA, one a/c was 304719 which belly-landed after air combat

Fighter losses included one La-5 (159 IAP) and seven Airacobras (196 IAP), and three Yak-9s damaged (14 and 29 GIAP) of 275 IAD. 2 GIAK PVO (air defence fighter corps) lost one Yak-9 (27 IAP), one La-5 (401 IAP) and one Airacobra (103 GIAP).

Baltic Fleet Air Force (VVS KBF) lost two Il-2s and one La-5 at the Bay of Viipuri.
There is also at least one Pe-2 case.

Captured pilot POW Jnr. Ltn Borisov Nikolaj Aleksandrovitsh 34 GBAP Pe-2 19.6.44 in Hiitola. Aircraft was shot down (?) in Hiitola (or at least Borisov was captured there) 19 June, 1944. The thing here is that FAF had total 6 Pe-2 claims and Germans one. Coordinates of claims however don't match to that Hiitola Pe-2 aircraft.
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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Re: Was there any Il-2s losses on 19 June 1944 at Kämärä/Gavrilo area?

Post by tramonte » 29 May 2018 12:22

Does anyone know where to check name lists of deceased or missing PVO or VVS-KBF pilots and crew members. I have tried to find names of other units but so far find only 13th air army units like 275 IAP, 277 Shad, 281 Shad, 276 BAD and 113 BAD from here

http://teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/DivDocs/DivDocs10.html
"Military history is nothing but a tissue of fictions and legends, only a form of literary invention; reality counts for very little in such affair."

- Gaston de Pawlowski, Dans les rides du front

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